Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

SeaFields · 27-01-2014 01:38PM

I listened to this while driving last night The Garda who limped.

Its one of the RTE radio one documentaries and this one is a conversation with one of the whistleblowers. Its was a very good listen for any one interested.

brooke 2 · 27-01-2014 01:56PM

SeaFields wrote: »

I listened to this while driving last night The Garda who limped.

Its one of the RTE radio one documentaries and this one is a conversation with one of the whistleblowers. Its was a very good listen for any one interested.

I heard it when it was first broadcast. Scary, sad and thought provoking.

Anyone with a sense of justice should ensure that these men should be heard.

Conor Brady, formerly of the Garda Ombudsman Commission, was on RTE yesterday.
He knows Sergeant Maurice McCabe and described him as a person of integrity.
Said what he has to say is worth listening to.

WilyCoyote · 28-01-2014 02:48PM

The last paragraph is the new transparency a la Callinan

http://www.corruptioninireland.com/DSCN0933.JPG

For other gems see www.corruptioninireland.com

conorhal · 28-01-2014 02:57PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

I heard it when it was first broadcast. Scary, sad and thought provoking.

Anyone with a sense of justice should ensure that these men should be heard.

Conor Brady, formerly of the Garda Ombudsman Commission, was on RTE yesterday.
He knows Sergeant Maurice McCabe and described him as a person of integrity.
Said what he has to say is worth listening to.

Where as the Garda comissioner referred to these whistleblowers as 'scum' at the PAC.
Lions lead by donkeys so we are.

WilyCoyote · 28-01-2014 06:57PM

This is Conor Brady's statement referring to Sergeant Maurice McCabe:

Referring to Sergeant McCabe, the whistleblower who is still a serving garda, the former GSOC member said: "I can say that in my estimation Maurice is a fine guard, a fine officer, a man of integrity and I certainly would be influenced, to say the least by what he would have to say.

"I would listen to him very seriously," he added.

Full story:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500249-garda-whistleblowing/

WilyCoyote · 31-01-2014 01:13AM

From OPINION in today's Evening Herald.
Written by an ex-det garda

If whistleblowers are 'disgusting' why should public give crime tip offs?

AND so the penalty points controversy speeds on.

The matter, which has rumbled away for well over a year, has eventually wound up on the desk of the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission.

It was referred there this week by Justice Minister Alan Shatter, who belatedly decided to intervene in the matter and refer corruption allegations to GSOC for investigation.

GSOC will now investigate but to my mind huge damage already been done to the force. And much of this was caused at the Public Accounts Committee hearing into the matter last week.

That hearing, and this issue as a whole, has left me in no doubt that there has been serious reputational damage inflicted on the garda force, both as a result of the allegations and the way they've been handled.

I'd go as far as to say that public trust and confidence in the impartial and fairness of the administration of justice has been undermined.

Let's be clear on the scale of what's alleged here.

Two garda whistleblowers (as they are, under the terms of the 2005 Garda Siochana Act) levelled charges of corruption against a number of senior officers, alleging that these officers quashed penalty points, often for relations, colleagues, friends or high profile personalities.

They allege the points were erased on bogus grounds, which amounted to an illegal practice.

The whistleblowers took their complaints to a number of TDs. The ensuing furore led to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan (inset) appointing a senior officer to investigate the allegations.

This probe found no evidence of criminality, but did find systems failures and breaches of regulations and procedures.

I was one of a number of commentators at the time that publicly expressed grave reservations about the decision to run an internal inquiry.

The whistleblowers obviously believed the same and subsequently took their case to the Dail's Public Accounts Committee.

And so we saw Commissioner Callinan, accompanied by a cohort of senior officers, appear before the PAC last week.

When questioned Callinan robustly dismissed allegations of corruption against his officers and rubbished the claims of the two whistleblowers.

In a comment I considered offensive, Callinan labelled the whistleblowers' actions as "disgusting".

This was an extraordinary and intemperate outburst as, under the terms of the 2005 Garda Siochana Act, the two officers are legally entitled to report incidents which they believe to be illegal and corrupt.

This raises a very important question.

Would this contemptuous attitude encourage members of the public to volunteer confidential information to members of the force, or dial the garda confidential line?

His ill-chosen remarks have, in my opinion, only served to reinforce the stereotypical perception of whistleblowers as informants or 'rats' (though he did not state this himself, of course).

And, as we know, one of the most odious terms in Irish culture remains that of "informer".

But far from their actions being disgusting these two whistleblowers should be supported for having the courage to report what they believe to be malpractice within the force.

It is very telling that one former GSOC member, Conor Brady, last weekend referred to one of the whistleblowers, Sgt Maurice McCabe, as "a man of integrity" whose evidence must be listened to.

I trust GSOC's team will and that these allegations will be fully investigated. Because nothing less than that is needed to restore the force's reputation.

Frankie Lee · 09-02-2014 01:52AM

Article from Michael Clifford
http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/the-futility-of-gardai-investigating-their-own-258059.html

This office was set up in the wake of the Morris tribunal to accept and process complaints from gardaí about malpractice or corruption within the force.

On June 14, 2011, Justice Minister Alan Shatter appointed solicitor Oliver Connolly to the post. Connolly had once given a contribution of €1,000 to one of Shatter’s previous election campaigns.

During Wednesday’s debate, Wallace held up sheets of paper which he said was the transcript. He said of the contents: “It is frightening.” He went on to quote what he said were the comments of the confidential recipient: “I’ll tell you something, Maurice, and this is just personal advice to you; If Shatter thinks you’re screwing him, you’re finished.”

Wallace quoted another line: “If Shatter thinks, here’s this guy again, trying another route, trying to put on pressure, he’ll go after you.”

Wallace then added his own words: “He’ll go after you? Our Minister for Justice? What is going on?”

The context of the meeting between McCabe, the whistleblower, and Connolly, the confidential recipient, which took place on February 9, 2012, tells much about how complaints of malpractice have been dealt with in the force.

A month previously, McCabe had approached Connolly. It was the first dealing that McCabe had had with Connolly since the latter’s appointment. McCabe had made previous complaints about malpractice, and particularly gross incompetence, to Connolly’s predecessor.

His complaint in January 2012, however, was of a different order. The focus of his complaint was none other than the Garda Commissioner himself, Martin Callinan. A senior officer, who had been central to McCabe’s previous complaints, was in line for promotion. McCabe believed that this appointment should not go ahead, and for the commissioner to promote this man would be a dereliction of duty.

McCabe laid out 12 grounds for his reservations. All referred to investigations or cases which had occurred under the command of the senior officer.

One of those cases was that involving taxi-driver Mary Lynch, who had been viciously assaulted. Her assailant was allowed out on bail twice thereafter, due to a series of cock-ups, and went on to murder Silvia Roche Kelly in Limerick in December 2007. The handling of that investigation was under review both internally and from the Garda Ombudsman Commission at the time.

Another case involved the loss of a computer in Garda custody. The computer had been seized from a priest who was subsequently convicted of child abuse charges.

Major questions surrounded the handling of the case, particularly as no investigation had been undertaken into the mislaying or loss of the computer which was suspected of containing child pornography images. That was also the focus of an internal investigation in January 2012

There is more but I don't want to be quoting more than half of it but it Callinan & Shatter won't be too happy reading it.

adrag · 09-02-2014 08:35PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I can unequivocally say it is not rampant, and i say that as a member. And i would not stand for the corruption you say is going on. The majority of members know not to put their colleagues in that situation, because they wouldn't like to be put in it themselves.

The current scandal goes above my pay grade (i wouldn't have the power to cancel anything on any system!), but i can say with pure honesty, i have never seen or heard of anyone i know within the organisation (of which i'm in for 8 years, and fairly senior in the scheme of things thanks to massive retirements) do anything which is currently being investigated, or any other type of corruption (that doesn't fall under the remit of discretion).

And even now, as an anonymous person on this forum, i have to be entirely sure that everything i type cannot land me in jail, because it's easy to trace someone from a forum, and Boards have a legal obligation to pass on my details to AGS (through the proper procedures and court documents), details which will easily identify me. So i'm not anonymous, and am held way more accountable than anyone else on this forum (unless they are also members) for what i type, even if it's just an opinion. And therein lies a crux, a person willing to explain the day to day activities and thinking of a member of AGS, but cannot do so for fear of losing my job, my house and my freedom.

And with that, i have to add anything i do say is an opinion, and not representative of any club and/or organisation.

Edit: Even now, going back over it, i had to take something out which, on re-reading, could have landed me in major trouble!

Well you would say that,look at the attitude of your boss because two gardai had the neck to bring this up

kerry4sam · 10-02-2014 10:44AM

Now we have GSOC believing that their offices were bugged. See here.

Alan Shatter has also asked the commission for a detailed report on the matter, including its decision to hire a British security company last year to investigate if it had been placed under electronic surveillance.

The minister was not informed of the decision and a complaint was not made to gardaí.

No complaint made to the Gardaí, no surprises there. I remember being told years ago to "Tell em nothing!".

Sound advice I should have taken,
kerry4sam

Dyr · 10-02-2014 10:53AM

conorhal wrote: »

Where as the Garda comissioner referred to these whistleblowers as 'scum' at the PAC.
Lions lead by donkeys so we are.

Gob****es led by ****ehawks more like

Boaty · 10-02-2014 09:30PM

Friends with a sergeant who puts the address of whichever station he is based at on his motor tax form so corrupt gardai can't find out where he lives via PULSE.

WilyCoyote · 12-02-2014 04:42AM

In the US a female cop pulls over a fellow cop that was driving at up to 120 MPH, handcuffed him and he was later fired. Since then she has been harassed (a bit like one of the the recent cases by our own gardai) non stop, sent to Coventry etc by her fellow cops. But, fair play to her ...... she decides to sue. Full story underneath. In olden days out West circling the wagons in what was formerly Cowboy & Indian country was what the pioneers did. The cops do it now ........ but in a country devoid of Indians why do our own cowboys resort to the same tactic?
I guess it's because there are very few garda out there who have not pulled rank at one time or another. Raise your head above the parapet and some incident in the past will be brought up to buy your silence.
The incident of Shatter's breath test should be looked at again. "Do you know who I am?" ....... give me a fucking break. If that's not pulling rank? And the lame excuse about not being able to blow. Jesus H Christ. Can you imagine a young fellow from Sheriff St getting away with that!
So, one law for the cops, their friends, families and celebs and another for ordinary citizens.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2556660/Trooper-pulled-120mph-police-officer-sues-500-000-colleagues-harassed-lost-job.html

steddyeddy · 12-02-2014 07:59AM

This country's an old boys club at the top. I certainly won't report crime to the gaurds unless someone's life is at risk. I simply don't trust them. When someone who reports a crime within the gaurds is called a scumbag I don't want to know.

Frank Lee Midere · 12-02-2014 08:59AM

I generally trust the Gardai. Most of the complaints here are about letting people off with vechiclar misdemeanors which police can do on the spot and always could. The claim that the GSOC has been bugged has been debunked.

golfball37 · 12-02-2014 10:18AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I generally trust the Gardai. Most of the complaints here are about letting people off with vechiclar misdemeanors which police can do on the spot and always could. The claim that the GSOC has been bugged has been debunked.

has it?

adrag · 13-02-2014 11:31AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I generally trust the Gardai. Most of the complaints here are about letting people off with vechiclar misdemeanors which police can do on the spot and always could. The claim that the GSOC has been bugged has been debunked.

Your either very gullible or a complete ****ing idiot or a member of ags.or maybe all 3

adrag · 13-02-2014 11:34AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

In the US a female cop pulls over a fellow cop that was driving at up to 120 MPH, handcuffed him and he was later fired. Since then she has been harassed (a bit like one of the the recent cases by our own gardai) non stop, sent to Coventry etc by her fellow cops. But, fair play to her ...... she decides to sue. Full story underneath. In olden days out West circling the wagons in what was formerly Cowboy & Indian country was what the pioneers did. The cops do it now ........ but in a country devoid of Indians why do our own cowboys resort to the same tactic?
I guess it's because there are very few garda out there who have not pulled rank at one time or another. Raise your head above the parapet and some incident in the past will be brought up to buy your silence.
The incident of Shatter's breath test should be looked at again. "Do you know who I am?" ....... give me a fucking break. If that's not pulling rank? And the lame excuse about not being able to blow. Jesus H Christ. Can you imagine a young fellow from Sheriff St getting away with that!
So, one law for the cops, their friends, families and celebs and another for ordinary citizens.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2556660/Trooper-pulled-120mph-police-officer-sues-500-000-colleagues-harassed-lost-job.html

Its always been that way

DistanceVector · 13-02-2014 12:24PM

Disgusting apologists will always be disgusting apologists.

Stand up and be counted you lick-spittle fools.

WilyCoyote · 16-02-2014 07:30PM

Once they start bugging the phones of The Fourth and Fifth Estates, they are on the slippery road where democracy getsa a flat tyre.. Of course Callinan will deny any knowledge. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davis, "He would say that, wouldn't he!"

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/cops-spied-on-our-reporters-phone-for-four-years

AS criminality figures go through the roof, these goons-in-uniform are chasing conspiracy stories like headless chickens.

WilyCoyote · 19-02-2014 06:43PM

oceanman wrote: »

why is the garda ombudsman not investigating this...surely that's why they were set up in the first place..to tackle corruption and wrongdoing in the force!...

Interference from on high? Never!

TheLastMohican · 24-02-2014 04:20PM

"The Donegal man came to international attention when the Morris Tribunal found that Gardaí had tried to frame him for murder." Irish Examiner

People seem to have forgotten this finding. The Gardaí tried to get this innocent man convicted of murder. And a recent report says that the force has widespread support from the general public? Either the public have short memories or the people who come up with these figures are cooking the books.
One way or the other, a radical change is needed to weed out these corrupt gardai, politicians and civil servants. What better time than now to start a serious cull.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mcbrearty-jnr-wants-garda-posts-to-be-completely-independent-623237.html
It seems that The Examiner is far more robust in it's reporting of the present debacle. I wonder why?

Potential-Monke · 24-02-2014 06:36PM

TheLastMohican wrote: »

"The Donegal man came to international attention when the Morris Tribunal found that Gardaí had tried to frame him for murder." Irish Examiner

People seem to have forgotten this finding. The Gardaí tried to get this innocent man convicted of murder. And a recent report says that the force has widespread support from the general public? Either the public have short memories or the people who come up with these figures are cooking the books.
One way or the other, a radical change is needed to weed out these corrupt gardai, politicians and civil servants. What better time than now to start a serious cull.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mcbrearty-jnr-wants-garda-posts-to-be-completely-independent-623237.html
It seems that The Examiner is far more robust in it's reporting of the present debacle. I wonder why?

Could it possibly be that the general public do not tar every member of the current force with the same brush? That this corruption is not as widespread as the media would lead you to believe?

renegademaster · 24-02-2014 06:44PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Could it possibly be that the general public do not tar every member of the current force with the same brush? That this corruption is not as widespread as the media would lead you to believe?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men Gardai do nothing.

then again we now more than ever know what happens when Gardai try to do the right thing in Ireland

Boaty · 24-02-2014 07:46PM

..

Potential-Monke · 24-02-2014 08:42PM

renegademaster wrote: »

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men Gardai do nothing.

And i suppose you report every single bit of illegal activity you see on a daily basis, even if family is involved? Keeping in mind that i could nearly guarantee that everyone breaks the law on a daily basis.

The Gardaí are not infallible. They do not automatically get a robotic fixation on upholding every aspect of the law the minute they get their badge. They are human, liable to the same pitfalls and mistakes that every human makes. And yes, there is corruption, just like there is corruption in every job. Yes, they're paid to uphold the law, and not doing so, breaking the law, goes against the principles of the force, but as i said, they're not infallible.

However, they are not all like that. To cover up these fines, to cancel them, to do the majority of what the latest scandal is bringing forward, requires a rank higher than Garda. Higher than Sergeant for the most. And Inspector and above account for 478 members. That's 3.6% of the force. And most of Inspector rank, imo, would not be corrupt. That's 273 of which only a percentage may be corrupt.

The corruption bleeds from above, just like politicians, bankers, CEO's of Charities, etc. Tackle the top, send a message to the bottom that it won't be tolerated. That's the only way to tackle it. But don't lump 12,681 members in together due to the actions of a few.

marienbad · 24-02-2014 08:47PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And i suppose you report every single bit of illegal activity you see on a daily basis, even if family is involved? Keeping in mind that i could nearly guarantee that everyone breaks the law on a daily basis.

The Gardaí are not infallible. They do not automatically get a robotic fixation on upholding every aspect of the law the minute they get their badge. They are human, liable to the same pitfalls and mistakes that every human makes. And yes, there is corruption, just like there is corruption in every job. Yes, they're paid to uphold the law, and not doing so, breaking the law, goes against the principles of the force, but as i said, they're not infallible.

However, they are not all like that. To cover up these fines, to cancel them, to do the majority of what the latest scandal is bringing forward, requires a rank higher than Garda. Higher than Sergeant for the most. And Inspector and above account for 478 members. That's 3.6% of the force. And most of Inspector rank, imo, would not be corrupt. That's 273 of which only a percentage may be corrupt.

The corruption bleeds from above, just like politicians, bankers, CEO's of Charities, etc. Tackle the top, send a message to the bottom that it won't be tolerated. That's the only way to tackle it. But don't lump 12,681 members in together due to the actions of a few.

And don't defend the many by equivocating with every other sector , treating whistle-blowers like the plague, and being forever at war with the mandated complaints authority.

And standards in the Gardaí are and should be higher that the general public. Caesar's wife and all that

TheLastMohican · 24-02-2014 08:57PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

The corruption bleeds from above, just like politicians, bankers, CEO's of Charities, etc. Tackle the top, send a message to the bottom that it won't be tolerated. That's the only way to tackle it. But don't lump 12,681 members in together due to the actions of a few.

Just to quote your last bit. So corruption bleeds from the top but is particular on whom it bleeds. Not on all, just some.
This also means that it gets more corrupt as it nears the top, if there is a filtering system lower down.
Don't tell this to Callinan or he might book into St John Of Gods and thereby get off the whole shebang. Who needs Mary Harney dropping names these days

steddyeddy · 25-02-2014 01:25AM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And i suppose you report every single bit of illegal activity you see on a daily basis, even if family is involved? Keeping in mind that i could nearly guarantee that everyone breaks the law on a daily basis.

The Gardaí are not infallible. They do not automatically get a robotic fixation on upholding every aspect of the law the minute they get their badge. They are human, liable to the same pitfalls and mistakes that every human makes. And yes, there is corruption, just like there is corruption in every job. Yes, they're paid to uphold the law, and not doing so, breaking the law, goes against the principles of the force, but as i said, they're not infallible.

However, they are not all like that. To cover up these fines, to cancel them, to do the majority of what the latest scandal is bringing forward, requires a rank higher than Garda. Higher than Sergeant for the most. And Inspector and above account for 478 members. That's 3.6% of the force. And most of Inspector rank, imo, would not be corrupt. That's 273 of which only a percentage may be corrupt.

The corruption bleeds from above, just like politicians, bankers, CEO's of Charities, etc. Tackle the top, send a message to the bottom that it won't be tolerated. That's the only way to tackle it. But don't lump 12,681 members in together due to the actions of a few.

The problem isn't that there are corrupt gaurds. There is corruption on all walks of life. The problem with the gaurds as an institution is that they do very little to get rid of those caught in the act.

So far we have:

The admitted covering up of child abuse and attempted prosecution of an abuse victim
The framing of a man for murder (Donegal)
Garda whistle-blowers ignored
Gaurds telling lies in relation to court cases

Very few of those gaurds (if any) were prosecuted. Doing nothing about corruption is the same as supporting it.

renegademaster · 25-02-2014 12:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The problem isn't that there are corrupt gaurds. There is corruption on all walks of life. The problem with the gaurds as an institution is that they do very little to get rid of those caught in the act.

So far we have:

The admitted covering up of child abuse and attempted prosecution of an abuse victim

The framing of a man for murder (Donegal)

Garda whistle-blowers ignored

Gaurds telling lies in relation to court cases

Very few of those gaurds (if any) were prosecuted. Doing nothing about corruption is the same as supporting it.

and they do precious little to weed out the corrupt cos the people of Ireland haven't shown they give a h'pennys fcuk about anything, scandal after scandal and somehow less and less are protesting

the problem here is too much civil-obedience!!

tayto lover · 25-02-2014 12:37PM

renegademaster wrote: »

and they do precious little to weed out the corrupt cos the people of Ireland haven't shown they give a h'pennys fcuk about anything, scandal after scandal and somehow less and less are protesting

the problem here is too much civil-obedience!!

Well fcuk all attended the protests on Banking, HHC, Property Tax etc etc.
So nothing is new at all there and nothing will change either.

Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

Comments