Iona vs Panti

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 03:50PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Sure, don't be so worried about the word idiotic... it's not a description of you, but of your opinion... if it's not idiotic then defend it and you'll be vindicated..

On to the substance:

That criticism reflected the past - they took the money/are taking the money.

It's not a debate that will be won.

Adapt and move on.

No one particularly cares honestly. Well, almost no one.

They care more about issues like homophobia than if we use foreign money to combat it in the media, because they rightly see it as inevitable... once one side takes it the other side is more or less bound to eventually.

I am not worried about the use of the word idiotic I am condemning it's use to describe a valid point which you have still failed to address.

We cannot criticise Iona for using U.S. funding in their campaign if we are doing the exact same thing.

What is it about this statement that you do not want to address?

And pardon me for wanting to discuss us having ethics....:rolleyes:

Penn · 06-02-2014 03:51PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You don't have freedom to defame. If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.

Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if they the accusations won't stand up in court?

Do you honestly believe that if some of the people you've claimed are involved in conspiracy theories in the past read your posts and threatened you with legal action that your accusations would stand up in court? Every time you posit a conspiracy theory, you are defaming the people involved. Which is worse; being accused of homophobia or of being complicit in helping to organise the deaths of almost 3,000 people?

If Larry Silverstein threatened you with legal action, saying you could either apologise and pay $2000, or face being sued for $1m in court, would you try to defend it in court? Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if the allegations won't stand up in court?

Cabaal · 06-02-2014 03:54PM

We cannot criticise Iona for using U.S. funding in their campaign if we are doing the exact same thing.

But we can

We can see how funds for example
http://www.marriagequality.ie/fundraising/thankyou2.html

We cannot see this with Iona, they refuse to disclose who funds them and by how much.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 03:55PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

There is a big difference, though, between how each side reacts to the receiving of the money and what the money would be used for. I.e. Iona is incredibly secretive about what money and support they get and from where, and they use that money and support to bus people around from protest to protest and to create misleading, homophobic, articles and claims. Whereas, at least in terms of Panti, all the support (personal or otherwise) has been openly embraced and the offer of money has only been suggested to defend Panti of a defamation case, should she even need it.

I have no problem with money or resources coming from the US, or any other country, to argue for or against gay rights, no more than I would have a problem with money or resources coming from Ireland to fight for or against e.g the Taliban in Afghanistan or Guantanamo bay in the US. People are entitled to have opinions about what goes on in other countries, and if they want to send their money over to help or hinder, then that's their own choice. What I have a problem with is groups in any country lying about their resources in order to imply that their support is home grown, when it is almost entirely not.

Again I agree.

What is concerning me is that my opinion is being dismissed as idiotic and the ethical concerns I raised are being deflected into discussing Iona.

I am not discussing Iona's funding - I am discussing us criticising them for doing something we are doing ourselves.

I also expect more reasoned responses in A&A than dismissal and deflection.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 03:57PM

Cabaal wrote: »

I thought it was the gay lobby?
:pac:

Tiles lifted in the Gay Lobby as it turned out the Gay Agendas make crap flood barriers so we have moved to the Gay Cafe for a late lunch and some cake.

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 03:59PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am not worried about the use of the word idiotic I am condemning it's use to describe a valid point which you have still failed to address.

We cannot criticise Iona for using U.S. funding in their campaign if we are doing the exact same thing.

What is it about this statement that you do not want to address?

And pardon me for wanting to discuss us having ethics....:rolleyes:

You're hung up on this.... and no one is gonna follow you down this hole.

Go re-read the Obama thing I posted earlier.. that's how most people feel. They're no in the mood to be reflective about Iona's funding, in the sense that it's a battle lost.

They don't CARE about Iona BECAUSE of who they get their funding from. That's not the ethical issue they're interested in. That was part of a fight AGAINST Iona, but if they can fight Iona with foreign money then they will.

If you're not down with that, you'll be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Hypocrisy is part of the reality of politics and most people get this instinctively. They fight the important battles and expect to have to be a little less than rigid sometimes to accomplish what they really care about.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 04:02PM

Cabaal wrote: »

But we can

We can see how funds for example
http://www.marriagequality.ie/fundraising/thankyou2.html

We cannot see this with Iona, they refuse to disclose who funds them and by how much.

As long as we are open about the sources of our funding we can criticise Iona for their failure to be open. But we cannot criticise them for accepting U.S. funds if we are also doing so - that is the point I have been making over and over and over again.

AND if anyone thinks I will take having my opinion dismissed as idiotic without comment that will be the rock they perish on.

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 04:03PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As long as we are open about the sources of our funding we can criticise Iona for their failure to be open. But we cannot criticise them for accepting U.S. funds if we are also doing so - that is the point I have been making over and over and over again.

AND if anyone thinks I will take having my opinion dismissed as idiotic without comment that will be the rock they perish on.

People CAN and WILL.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 04:07PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

People CAN and WILL.

Then those people are hypocrites.

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 04:12PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then those people are hypocrites.

And they don't care. And most people don't care. And they're not about to start caring.

robindch · 06-02-2014 04:12PM

ewan whose army wrote: »

If they instead put a response out and try and explain how they aren't the homophobes they appear at least it would be free debate.

The funny, but welcome, thing is that they've been observing almost complete radio silence for the last three weeks. Wouldn't blame them really, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall at their strategy meetings these days.

Hell, I've just checked and it seems that even the Alive! agitpropmag doesn't mention Rory, Panti or Iona and has just a single small note from Quinn.

http://www.alive.ie/uploads/6/5/1/1/6511516/alive_feb_14.pdf

Still, it's got one "article" entitled 'Threat to freedom of speech' on page eight, and another which condemns 'media gullibility' on page five. So they haven't entirely lost their sense of humor.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 04:18PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

You're hung up on this.... and no one is gonna follow you down this hole.

Go re-read the Obama thing I posted earlier.. that's how most people feel. They're no in the mood to be reflective about Iona's funding, in the sense that it's a battle lost.

They don't CARE about Iona BECAUSE of who they get their funding from. That's not the ethical issue they're interested in. That was part of a fight AGAINST Iona, but if they can fight Iona with foreign money then they will.

If you're not down with that, you'll be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Hypocrisy is part of the reality of politics and most people get this instinctively. They fight the important battles and expect to have to be a little less than rigid sometimes to accomplish what they really care about.

Sweetest Divine.

I am not talking what is happening in the U.S. - I don't live in the fecking U.S and even though I could if I wish I will never live in the U.S.

I live in Ireland. I am concerned with Ireland. I am concerned with how I, as an Irish citizen, am being treated in my own country.

As for the dustbin of history - as one of the people who write that history I believe I am in a far better position to say what will end up in the dustbin than you are.

History is being written right now - and I am one of the people writing it and where I see hypocrisy I will expose it regardless of which side is 'guilty'. That is my job.

You are obviously an end justifies the means person. I am not.

Too much evil has been committed by good people adhering to that particular philosophy and I utterly reject it.

It is the philosophy behind protecting child abusers by the RCC.
It is the philosophy behind so much that is rotten in our country.

I would rather lose - and I say this as someone who came out in the late 70s and have been fighting this battle my whole life - than adopt the tactics of my oppressors to 'win' because when we do that - we have already lost.

I have a choice - I can choose to be a hypocrite or I can choose not to.

I choose the latter.

For you to call that 'idiotic' says more about you than me.

Cabaal · 06-02-2014 04:22PM

robindch wrote: »

Hell, I've just checked and it seems that even the Alive! agitpropmag doesn't mention Rory, Panti or Iona and has just a single small note from Quinn.

http://www.alive.ie/uploads/6/5/1/1/6511516/alive_feb_14.pdf

Still, it's got one "article" entitled 'Threat to freedom of speech' on page eight, and another which condemns 'media gullibility' on page five. So they haven't entirely lost their sense of humor.

Forget all of that, its not relevant!

What is relevant is you can get a 4 night mini break in April in Medjugorje for 449 a person! wow!

I know very religious catholic people that go to mass several times a week that think even the Medjugorje spinning sun crowd are bloody insane

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/signs-and-miracles/547-the-spinning-sun.html

Pilgrims have reported being able to look at the sun without hurting their eyes and seeing many different things: the Host spinning in the center of the sun, the sun spinning and dancing all around, it moving closer and farther away from them, different figures around the sun, such as hearts, crosses, etc. -

If any of the above happened, we're all dead

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 04:23PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sweetest Divine.

I am not talking what is happening in the U.S. - I don't live in the fecking U.S and even though I could if I wish I will never live in the U.S.

I live in Ireland. I am concerned with Ireland. I am concerned with how I, as an Irish citizen, am being treated in my own country.

As for the dustbin of history - as one of the people who write that history I believe I am in a far better position to say what will end up in the dustbin than you are.

History is being written right now - and I am one of the people writing it and where I see hypocrisy I will expose it regardless of which side is 'guilty'. That is my job.

You are obviously an end justifies the means person. I am not.

Too much evil has been committed by good people adhering to that particular philosophy and I utterly reject it.

It is the philosophy behind protecting child abusers by the RCC.
It is the philosophy behind so much that is rotten in our country.

I would rather lose - and I say this as someone who came out in the late 70s and have been fighting this battle my whole life - than adopt the tactics of my oppressors to 'win' because when we do that - we have already lost.

I have a choice - I can choose to be a hypocrite or I can choose not to.

I choose the latter.

For you to call that 'idiotic' says more about you than me.

Lots of pointy pointy words, and not one of them will change how anyone behaves.

I can argue my enemy is immoral to want nuclear weapons. If he gets them I will pray my country does soon.

It's like that old joke:

What do you call a political moral victory?

A loss.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2014 04:24PM

robindch wrote: »

http://www.alive.ie/uploads/6/5/1/1/6511516/alive_feb_14.pdf

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

lazygal · 06-02-2014 04:28PM

It's a shame the ! is missing from the web address. ! really adds something.

In fact, if it was the Iona Institute! or the Catholic Church! that would be interesting.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 04:35PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Lots of pointy pointy words, and not one of them will change how anyone behaves.

I can argue my enemy is immoral to want nuclear weapons. If he gets them I will pray my country does soon.

It's like that old joke:

What do you call a political moral victory?

A loss.

'Lots of pointy pointy words' oh deary deary me... is that the level we have descended to?

I do not speak for everyone nor do I claim to - although you appear to believe you do - I speak for myself and only myself.

You believe it is ok to be a hypocrite as this serves the greater 'good'.

I believe the greater 'good' becomes utterly soiled when we compromise our principles.

You claim that no one is interested and no one cares and that you can dismiss me because I do care - this makes me believe there is no further point in attempting to discuss this with you as you appear to have already adopted the tactics of Iona.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. They are the enemy of my enemy and we should think carefully before allying with them - that is a lesson History teaches us if we have the sense to learn it.

robindch · 06-02-2014 04:48PM

Boys and girls. Down off our high horses, please, then kiss and make up or there'll be no biscuits for the whole class later on.

lazygal · 06-02-2014 04:51PM

robindch wrote: »

Boys and girls. Down off our high horses, please, then kiss and make up or there'll be no biscuits for the whole class later on.

Or Hawaiian pizzas?

token56 · 06-02-2014 04:52PM

Pfff I brought my own biscuits, and not just any biscuits, bourbons, mmmmm.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 04:56PM

robindch wrote: »

Boys and girls. Down off our high horses, please, then kiss and make up or there'll be no biscuits for the whole class later on.

Girls

:mad::mad::mad:

Kiss a Boy

:eek::eek::eek:

Soz Rob.

I shall stable the high horse and go walk the dogs to calm down.

[-0-] · 06-02-2014 04:56PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No it is not idiotic -(great way to debate by the way - don't deal with what I said just dismiss it as 'idiotic' :rolleyes:)

I think it is and I'll explain why below.

We here in A&A have often made much of the fact that it is believed that Iona, YD etc are funded by Americans and we have decried this time and time again.

Funded by ALL Americans? Can you name them? I ask because on the one hand you're delighted this is getting attention in America, but on the other hand you asked the entire country to stay out of it. I don't remember any of my friends or colleagues giving one cent to fund Iona. This is why I labeled your statement as idiotic, because it's a gross generalization.

I have witnessed nothing but support for Panti in America. If Iona is funded by backward fundies from the states, then I agree with your statement when directed at those people only.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 05:01PM

[-0-] wrote: »

I think it is and I'll explain why below.

Funded by ALL Americans? Can you name them? I ask because on the one hand you're delighted this is getting attention in America, but on the other hand you asked the entire country to stay out of it. I don't remember any of my friends or colleagues giving one cent to fund Iona. This is why I labeled your statement as idiotic, because it's a gross generalization.

I have witnessed nothing but support for Panti in America. If Iona is funded by backward fundies from the states, then I agree with your statement when directed at those people only.

Did you not notice where I said I was in two minds before you flung out the word 'idiotic'?

You could also have posted some thing like I just quoted the first time and saved us all a Gallop into the Valley of Discord.

Now I have a high horse to stable and dogs to walk or Rob will get cross with me and I don't like it when he gets cross as he channels Thor...

[-0-] · 06-02-2014 05:02PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Did you not notice where I said I was in two minds before you flung out the word 'idiotic'?

You could also have posted some thing like I just quoted the first time and saved us all a Gallop into the Valley of Discord.

Now I have a high horse to stable and dogs to walk or Rob will get cross with me and I don't like it when he gets cross as he channels Thor...

So it's my fault for calling your sweeping generalizing statement idiotic, because I was the one who wasn't being clear. Gotcha.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 05:03PM

[-0-] wrote: »

So it's my fault for calling your sweeping generalizing statement idiotic, because I was the one who wasn't being clear. Gotcha.

Would it have killed you to compose a considered response?

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 05:03PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Lots of pointy pointy words' oh deary deary me... is that the level we have descended to?

I do not speak for everyone nor do I claim to - although you appear to believe you do - I speak for myself and only myself.

You believe it is ok to be a hypocrite as this serves the greater 'good'.

I believe the greater 'good' becomes utterly soiled when we compromise our principles.

You claim that no one is interested and no one cares and that you can dismiss me because I do care - this makes me believe there is no further point in attempting to discuss this with you as you appear to have already adopted the tactics of Iona.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. They are the enemy of my enemy and we should think carefully before allying with them - that is a lesson History teaches us if we have the sense to learn it.

You can believe it all you want; certainly no one will stop you.

If you care about accomplishing things, you'll find yourself basically alone in your beliefs.

Sure, if you'd like to find a list of successful politicians or parties that haven't ever behaves hypocritically then, maybe - just maybe - you could argue your attitude is a meaningful way to accomplish your goals.

You will not of course find any such list.

Politics is about winning. Always. It's by definition a competition. People expect a level of dishonesty because they know politicians - all of them - are glorified sales people. Selling an ideology, or a personality, or a party or a plan.

And if you think anyone thinks salesmen are the paradigm of morality, you'd be wrong.

And so, no one thinks this sort of piddling ethical issue is worth caring about. That's not why they choose to support Panti over Iona, etc., etc. and to a person almost every single supporter of equality for the LGBT community would trade a small ethical lapse for equal treatment under the law.

That's reality.

But sure, keep harping on about something meaningless. Have fun.

In the meantime people who are in your corner, in the greater sense, will continue to confound you with tiny ethical lapse, AND win victories for you.

Bannasidhe · 06-02-2014 05:05PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

You can believe it all you want; certainly no one will stop you.

If you care about accomplishing things, you'll find yourself basically alone in your beliefs.

Sure, if you'd like to find a list of successful politicians or parties that haven't ever behaves hypocritically then, maybe - just maybe - you could argue your attitude is a meaningful way to accomplish your goals.

You will not of course find any such list.

Politics is about winning. Always. It's by definition a competition. People expect a level of dishonesty because they know politicians - all of them - are glorified sales people. Selling an ideology, or a personality, or a party or a plan.

And if you think anyone thinks salesmen are the paradigm of morality, you'd be wrong.

And so, no one thinks this sort of piddling ethical issue is worth caring about. That's not why they choose to support Panti over Iona, etc., etc. and to a person almost every single supporter of equality for the LGBT community would trade a small ethical lapse for equal treatment under the law.

That's reality.

But sure, keep harping on about something meaningless. Have fun.

In the meantime people who are in your corner, in the greater sense, will continue to confound you with tiny ethical lapse, AND win victories for you.

Sure - it's take the money and ask no questions. Gotcha.

No.

MilanPan!c · 06-02-2014 05:08PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sure - it's take the money and ask no questions. Gotcha.

No.

See - that's the issue. You can't see that it's not ACTUALLY black and white. At all. Ever. When it comes to political campaigns and campaigners.

Instead it's trying to accomplish meaningful goals.

Not trying to be perfect. Trying to accomplish things you believe in. Real things.

Everyone HATES negative campaigning. But negative campaigns almost always have their desired effect.

No point in living in a fantasy world.

Sarky · 06-02-2014 05:12PM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

But sure, keep harping on about something meaningless. Have fun.

That you seem to think principles are meaningless is very worrying.

brimal · 06-02-2014 05:16PM

Can be viewed here: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm

---

Looks like BBC are going to cover 'Pantigate' too in some capacity:

Iona vs Panti

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