Iona vs Panti

ewan whose army

So you have probably heard of the storm that Panti (Rory O'Neill) has caused with the Iona Institute over a comment he made about homophobia

“I bet every single person in this audience has a cousin or a neighbour or the guy who you work with who is a flaming queen! I mean, you all know one. And it’s very hard to hold prejudices against people when you actually know those people. Because Ireland is such small communities grouped together, everybody knows their local gay!
Maybe twenty years ago it was ok to be really mean about him, but nowadays it’s just not ok to be really mean about it.
The only place that you see it’s ok to be really horrible and mean about gays is on the internet in the comments and people who make a living writing opinion pieces for newspapers.”

When he was asked who made such comments Breda O’Brien and John Waters, as well as the Iona Institute were mentioned.

So he made a valid point as was silenced for it. Whatever happened to Free Speech?

expectationlost

i'll do what posters were doing to me in the other thread.. whats this gotta do with this forum atheism ewan?

Skrynesaver

expectationlost wrote: »

i'll do what posters were doing to me in the other thread.. whats this gotta do with this forum atheism ewan?

Religous lobby group claim that their anti-equality stance is not anti-gay because it's religiously inspired.

Many on this forum have a little problem with the excessive influence of religion on politics and the media in this country, the disproportionate voice given to a small religious lobby group like the Iona institute and their insidious effect on debate of social policy in this country makes them a subject of interest to this forum.

Their ability to abuse the legal system to silence an honest opinion held by a member of the comunity they wish to deny rights to definitely merits discussion.

Peregrinus

Well, the OP rather glosses over the most important part of the story:

ewan whose army wrote: »

. . . When he was asked who made such comments Breda O’Brien and John Waters, as well as the Iona Institute were mentioned.

They “were mentioned”, were they? Any idea what exactly was said about them?

ewan whose army wrote: »

Whatever happened to Free Speech?

“Free speech” has never meant that you could say anything you like about anyone without any possibility of restraint or repercussion. If you exercise your right of free speech so as to defame someone, you may end up paying for it. And, I can’t help thinking, that’s possibly what’s at issue here.

Based on what I’ve read from O’Brien and Waters and the Iona Institute on LGBT issues, I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy for them. But it doesn’t follow that anything anybody ever says about them is fair game; even people I don’t like have rights. And if I don’t know what exactly was broadcast here, I don’t know whether it was a “valid point” or not. The notion that if it’s Breda O’Brien and John Waters and the Iona Institute then all criticism, however virulent, is automatically justified certainly has its appeal. But, not without a certain regret, in the end I have to reject it. To say anything intelligent about this, we need to know exactly what claim about O’Brien, etc, has been “silenced”.

expectationlost

he said the above http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/01/16/wisdom-is-bliss/ transcript

then Brendan O'Connor introduced the notion John Waters wasn't or was homophobic

BO’C: “I don’t know. I don’t know. I know one of the people that you mentioned there which is John Waters. I wouldn’t have thought that John Waters is homophobic?”

RO’N: “Oh listen, the problem is with the word ‘homophobic’, people imagine that if you say “Oh he’s a homophobe” that he’s a horrible monster who goes around beating up gays you know that’s not the way it is. Homophobia can be very subtle. I mean it’s like the way you know racism is very subtle. I would say that every single person in the world is racist to some extent because that’s how we order the world in our minds. We group people. You know it’s just how our minds work so that’s okay but you need to be aware of your tendency towards racism and work against it. And I don’t mind, I don’t care how you dress it up if you are arguing for whatever good reasons or you know whatever your impulses…”

then Rory O'Neill carefully broadened it out as far as he could and said there everyone is a little bit homophobic but that's okay as long as you work against it,

so he called me homophobic, can I sue?

and what Rory said on relgion following that

BO’C: “Because it is what you believe, it’s your faith or that, yeah?”

RO’N: “…it could be good impulses

'good impluses', this is what they call virulent criticism

Peregrinus

OK, Google is my friend.

A spot of googling reveals that the fearless folk at broadsheet.ie have (at least for now!) a transcript of the offending passage up on their site:

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/01/16/wisdom-is-bliss/

Assuming that the transcript is accurate, what O'Neills says seems to me to be fair comment, and not something which ought to have been censored.

Further googling says that this interview was broadcast on the same night as Tom O'Gorman, an Iona researcher, was murdered. O'Gorman, of course, is not mentioned in the interview - I doubt if O'Neill knew of his existence - and there doesn't seem to be any connection at all between the circumstances of his death and his involvement with Iona. But if RTE initially over-reacted, I'd be inclined to cut them a little slack on the basis that this wasn't necessarily known the morning after, when O'Gorman's murder came to light and the complaints about this piece started to come in. It may have seemed just possible to them that they were about to find themselves in the middle of something very nasty indeed.

Happily, not so. And I gather than an edited version of this exchange has now been restored to RTE's website. But I don't know exactly what has been edited out of the restored version. It doesn't seem to me that there's any justification for editing out any part of it.

One point does strike me, though. The suggestion that "John Waters is homophobic" doesn't come from O'Neill; it's first raised by the host, Brendan O'Connor. It's him, not O'Neill, who first mentions homophobia as the cause of attitudes which make gay people's lives miserable, and makes the link with Waters. If anything, O'Neill talks down what is meant by homophobia. So maybe what RTE are trying to do here is not so much to censor O'Neill as to protect O'Connor.

(That wouldn't justify the censorship, though, in my view.)

smacl

Also from broadsheet

Panti wrote:

To be clear: I have not received any correspondence, legal or otherwise, from John Waters. (at time of writing) 1/2

I have received 4 solicitors letter from Breda O'Brien, David Quinn, Patricia Casey, and John Murray, all of the Iona Institute. 2/2

Nice to have a well funded organisation behind you to pay the legal fees whenever you feel slighted :rolleyes:

Peregrinus

Interesting.

Two thoughts:

1. Whatever else we may say about John Waters, it doesn't appear from what we know so far that he has anything to do with any attempts to silence O'Neill or RTE in this episode.

2. Quinn, Casey and Murray weren't mentioned by name either by O'Neill or by O'Connor. Presumably their claim is that they are are readily identiable as part of the "Iona Institute crowd" that O'Neill says "devote quite a large amount of their time and energies to trying to stop people . . . achieving happiness".

They may also say that when O'Conner says "I know one of the people that you mentioned there which is John Waters. I wouldn’t have thought that John Waters is homophobic?”, the implication is that he would think that O'Brien et all are homophobic.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

They may also say that when O'Conner says "I know one of the people that you mentioned there which is John Waters. I wouldn’t have thought that John Waters is homophobic?”, the implication is that he would think that O'Brien et all are homophobic.

Reading the comments of O'Brien's recent IT article on gay priests, he's not alone in that regard.

expectationlost

http://twitter.com/PantiBliss/status/425263361425965056 Panti Bliss @pantibliss
I can now add John Waters to my list of legal correspondents. That's the full set I think.

RTE cuts part of show after legal complaint from Waters
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/rte-cuts-part-of-show-after-legal-complaint-from-waters-29921034.html

TwoShedsJackson

Peregrinus wrote: »

Interesting.

Two thoughts:

1. Whatever else we may say about John Waters, it doesn't appear from what we know so far that he has anything to do with any attempts to silence O'Neill or RTE in this episode.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/rte-cuts-part-of-show-after-legal-complaint-from-waters-29921034.html

Peregrinus

I spoke too soon, clearly!

ewan whose army

expectationlost wrote: »

i'll do what posters were doing to me in the other thread.. whats this gotta do with this forum atheism ewan?

A religious lobby forcing its own morality onto others by excessive and unwarranted access to the media, RTE are far too close to Iona if I am honest

Doctor DooM

expectationlost wrote: »

i'll do what posters were doing to me in the other thread.. whats this gotta do with this forum atheism ewan?

Religious intolerance and censorship aren't exactly popular around these parts.

RTE are apparently paying damages to Iona. Is this true? It's an absolute joke if it is. Our licence fees should not be taken off us for this nonsense

Knasher

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. Whatever else we may say about John Waters, it doesn't appear from what we know so far that he has anything to do with any attempts to silence O'Neill or RTE in this episode.

Wasn't this also what led John Waters to resign from the BAI? His legal complaint to RTE could have been construed as a misuse of his position on the BAI.
http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2014/01/21/rte-john-waters-and-regulating-outsider-voices/

Corkfeen

Iona phobia is now a thing. :O

Beruthiel

bluewolf wrote: »

RTE are apparently paying damages to Iona. Is this true? It's an absolute joke if it is. Our licence fees should not be taken off us for this nonsense

I'll be more than a tad pissed off if this is true.
We have no choice but to pay an annual license fee, if my money goes to people like Iona that would be more than I can tolerate.

complaints@rte.ie
complaints@bai.ie (broadcasting authority).

expectationlost

yes John waters has resigned from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland
but the paper of record won't tell you why http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/media/columnist-john-waters-resigns-from-broadcasting-body-1.1665742

to be replaced by former Irish Times journalist Seamus Martin appointed by Pat Rabbitte http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/journalist-s%C3%A9amus-martin-appointed-to-broadcasting-authority-of-ireland-1.1671265 brother of Diarmaid Martin

Beruthiel

Beruthiel wrote: »

complaints@rte.ie
complaints@bai.ie (broadcasting authority).

To quote a comment made by Hans Brix to Kim Jong Il:
I am very, very angry with them.
And I will write them a letter, telling them how angry I am.

Cabaal

You've got to be ****ing kidding me!

John Waters’ replacement on the Broadcasting Authority is...

Former Irish Times journalist Séamus Martin,

You know, brother to this guy

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

You've got to be ****ing kidding me!

John Waters’ replacement on the Broadcasting Authority is...

Former Irish Times journalist Séamus Martin,

You know, brother to this guy

Who knows, he might be less awful than John Waters.

That's right, John, oohh you are awful.

Duggy747

bluewolf wrote: »

RTE are apparently paying damages to Iona. Is this true? It's an absolute joke if it is. Our licence fees should not be taken off us for this nonsense

Supposedly, a statement from Iona's site. Don't seem to see it mentioned anywhere else.

ON Saturday Night Live last weekend, presenter Brendan O’Connor read out an apology to Breda O’Brien, The Iona Institute, and writer and broadcaster John Waters after a guest a fortnight before had accused all of the aforementioned parties of being ‘homophobic’.

RTE has also agreed to pay damages to the injured parties.

Complete sickener if it turns out to be true.

magicbastarder

bluewolf wrote: »

RTE are apparently paying damages to Iona. Is this true? It's an absolute joke if it is. Our licence fees should not be taken off us for this nonsense

this has been claimed by iona; i've not seen this confirmed anywhere else - does anyone know if it has been?

Duggy747

magicbastarder wrote: »

this has been claimed by iona; i've not seen this confirmed anywhere else - does anyone know if it has been?

Closest thing I've seen to it from TheJournal

RTÉ SAID IT will not be commenting on a claim from the Iona Institute that damages are to be paid to individuals as a result of comments made by a guest on the Saturday Night Show......

....

When asked about the claim that damages were paid over the guest’s comments on the Saturday Night Show, an RTÉ television spokesperson said that RTÉ would not be commenting on the Iona Institute email.

[-0-]

http://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1wgip3/for_anybody_unaware_of_the_current_situation/

I have seen a few posts about this but I think it's something that needs to stay in the limelight. First for anybody that is already aware whats going on and would like to complain: complaints@rte.ie

Rory O'Neill is an Irish performer, aka illustrious drag queen Panti, who, two weeks ago made an appearance on The Saturday Night Show, on RTE . During the interview Mr.O'Neill was asked to name those in the media who he believed to be homophobic. Mr.O'Neill named two leading Irish journalists and 'The Iona Institute'. For anybody who doesn't know 'The Iona Institute' is a conservative catholic lobby group. Responsible for videos like this which I have seen to be shown in a Dublin cinema and also on television.

Anyway, following Mr.O'Neills comments, RTE was threatened with legal action by those mentioned. Last saturday the host of the show issued an apology on behalf of RTE for any upset caused, but also in the same apology said "It is an important part of democratic debate that people must be able to hold dissenting views on controversial issues."

It has now been revealed that RTE will be paying an undisclosed amount of compensation to this private company. RTE are paying the Iona institute because someone said something offensive about them through the medium of RTE.

I read an interesting piece that questions the relationship between the Iona institute and RTE on this blog.
The Irish TV licence fee we pay makes up 50% of the revenue of RTÉ.This information about distribution of T.V licence funds is from 'television licence' on Wikipedia. I believe it is relevant because that is money we are paying, we should be able to agree with its use.

If you would like to but have not yet please complain to RTE (complaints@rte.ie). We are louder together.

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

Former Irish Times journalist Séamus Martin [...]

From everything I've read of his, Seamus seems to be a thoroughly decent chap.

Last time I heard of Seamus, he was working as an election overseer in the disputed (and sniper-fire-level dangerous) Azerbaijani/Armenian territory of Nagorno-Karabakh a few months back - I can't imagine somebody of Waters stature being similarly willing to going out and doing something positive to uphold democracy.

FouxDaFaFa

I'm pretty sickened by this whole thing. I think O'Neill actually spoke very reasonably and fairly about Iona et al. I think he was goaded into providing specific names by O'Connor, I don't think he would have mentioned individuals if Brendan hadn't kept prodding him.

Iona kicking up about it has made it a bigger deal than it ever would have been had they let it go. A lot of people had no idea who the Iona Institute were before this. Now with all the publicity "Iona" and "Homophobia" are linked in their minds.

I think RTE's apology was unnecessary and showed a lack of regard for their guest and if it's true they're actually paying damages to Iona, it's a terrible precedent. Especially with the referendum coming up.

Beruthiel

Panti's twitter.

Turtwig

Pardon my cynicism.

But how much money do Waters et al make for RTE when they make such lofty statements on their talk shows. The cynic in me is thinking that the only reason RTE paid these people damages is because they know that having them on air time makes them more money in the long run. It's just good business.

(Ten points to the poster who catches the reference.
Google is cheating.)

Beruthiel

Ten points of what?

Turtwig

Beruthiel wrote: »

Ten points of what?

Ten arbitrary boardsie points of nothing other than symbolism.

robindch

Jernal wrote: »

(Ten points [...] )

You've an extra 'o' in there.

joseph brand

Jernal wrote: »

Pardon my cynicism.

But how much money do Waters et al make for RTE when they make such lofty statements on their talk shows. The cynic in me is thinking that the only reason RTE paid these people damages is because they know that having them on air time makes them more money in the long run. It's just good business.

(Ten points to the poster who catches the reference.
Google is cheating.)

Ryan Tubridy?

The Black Oil

Poor Iona Institute
In crying oppression they ain't half cute
Gays they don't get
On criticism they fret
Now slap on your legal suit

expectationlost

Beruthiel wrote: »

Panti's twitter.

how does do those complaints matter? they are not legal complaints, rte will capitulate, settle out of court, as it has done, then hide behind legal matters and we'll never hear the real story of what RTE did wrong in these cases, see Fr Kevin Reyonolds Primetime story, Frontline not checking the tweet etc etc

vitani

It probably won't make a difference but I've just sent a complaint to RTÉ as well.

I was nearly sick when I heard the story about damages being paid this morning. It frustrates me that everyone I know agrees that there's nothing defamatory about what Rory said. It seems that RTÉ just can't be arsed standing up to the Iona Institute.

tawnyowl

ewan whose army wrote: »

A religious lobby forcing its own morality onto others by excessive and unwarranted access to the media, RTE are far too close to Iona if I am honest

Iona patrons often appear on RTE, though their connection with Iona doesn't seem to be mentioned often, if at all.

tawnyowl

robindch wrote: »

From everything I've read of his, Seamus seems to be a thoroughly decent chap.

Last time I heard of Seamus, he was working as an election overseer in the disputed (and sniper-fire-level dangerous) Azerbaijani/Armenian territory of Nagorno-Karabakh a few months back - I can't imagine somebody of Waters stature being similarly willing to going out and doing something positive to uphold democracy.

Agreed, Seamus Martin is a decent guy and a good journalist.

Sulla Felix

Anyone know the ins and outs of a FOI request and whether it might be of use to get something out of RTE re the compensation?

lazygal

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Anyone know the ins and outs of a FOI request and whether it might be of use to get something out of RTE re the compensation?

I would doubt rte comes under foi requests.

Sulla Felix

It seems to, but I don't know in what areas or that kind of stuff. Trying to trawl the foi website now.

http://foi.gov.ie/bodies-in-the-broadcasting-sector

wp_rathead

Anyone listen to the start of RTE Late Debate? Started off with nice lil exchange between Colm O'Gormon (d'ligind) and Breda O'Brien about PantiGate?

Colm basically sums it up with: (paraphrase)
No one has the right to not be offended , but people have right to point when people are being offensive.

Dave!

Yeah was listening, rowdy stuff indeed. Wish they had let it go on for longer. Surely Newstalk or TV3 someone would host a proper debate on that topic?

Brown Bomber

What is the problem exactly?

It's like the BBC/ Lord McCalpine case. Allegations were made against persons by people who can't prove their allegations.

"They're being horrible and mean" is not an allegation
A state broadcaster using money taken from the people under threat of force (if you have a tv) to hand out to a group before there's even any legal action or official settlement, if true, is a disgrace

Brown Bomber

bluewolf wrote: »

"They're being mean" is not an allegation
A state broadcaster using money taken from the people under threat of force (if you have a tv) to hand out to a group before there's even any legal action or official settlement, if true, is a disgrace

Homophobe is though.

robindch

TD's Jerry Buttimer, Catherine Murphy and John Lyons are tabling questions in the Dail about the actions of Quinn and RTE:

https://twitter.com/evanmurphycork/status/428647013992132608
https://twitter.com/CathMurphyTD/status/428594361303977984
https://twitter.com/JohnLyonsTD/status/428236218653224960

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Homophobe is though.

It wasn't used by Panti until Brendan used it; he then said it's like racism in that he's sure we're all just a little bit racist, and that denying equal rights is homophobia.
They're essentially having a fit because they were directly called mean and horrible, that's all there is to it.

robindch

And LGBT Noise are organizing a protest outside the Gaiety Theater this Sunday at 2pm:

http://www.thejournal.ie/panti-bliss-rte-iona-1289053-Jan2014/

vitani

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Homophobe is though.

I think he was very careful in how it was phrased. In response to Brendan O'Connor outright asking him if John Waters was homophobic, he said he finds people who actively campaign against gay marriage to be homophobic. It's a fair comment, and while the Iona Institute et al might disagree with his interpretation, there was nothing illegal about it.