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Iona vs Panti

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  • #512
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Penncil Dick wrote: »
    Absolute and complete nonsense of the highest order. I have a strange feeling you've made this same "example" before somewhere, though I won't bother searching for it. Instead, I'll make the same point I seem to remember making then:

    If you're hanging out with people who do drugs, you're going to meet more people who do drugs. It is not, in any way shape or form indicative of anything except the "recreational drug scene"

    I'm not passing any judgement against ANY people who do drugs, gay or straight. I would have thought that this would have been understood given my own admission. In fact, I can completely understand the appeal being greater for gays to use drugs when feel the need to repress and conceal their true self in their daily lives.

    Like I said it was an observation. One which seems to be supported by the facts.
    Young gay men are much more likely than straight men to take drugs, including ecstasy, cocaine and marijuana, according to two studies in Britain and America.
    ...
    The people that we spoke to were in an environment that was surrounded by drugs,' said Linda Valleroy, an epidemiologist and one of the report's authors. 'There were synchronised epidemics of HIV, drug use and depressive behaviour.'

    New research by the mental health charity Mind showed that the trend is replicated in Britain with drug use consistently higher among gay men and lesbian women.



    'The gay scene is bar and club orientated,' said Monty Moncrieff, project co-ordinator at Antidote, a drugs service for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. 'That is where people go to meet other gay people and there is a lot of cocaine, ecstasy, ketamine and GHB around. It is a hedonistic culture and often the lifestyle and recreational drug use go hand in hand.'
    ...
    It is still a hangover from the ecstasy house music boom which did to some extent start in the gay clubs of London,' says David Smith, a senior health promotion officer for gay men.

    'It may be because their social life is a very important part of identity - certainly compared to heterosexuals. Gay men also continue to take drugs for much longer than heterosexuals, long after others have chosen to settle down with a family.'



    But while much of the drug use is club-related, with recreational drugs being taken as a lifestyle choice, there are concerns that drug use among gay men can be a form of escapism from difficult lives. 'Many people may feel repressed in everyday life,' said Moncrieff. 'They may have to hide their sexuality in the week.'
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/nov/09/drugsandalcohol.drugs


  • #513
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Links234 wrote: »
    The "gay scene" only represents a subset of the wider LGBT community

    This could come as a surprise to you, but LGBT people have diverse interests and are spread across all walks of life. I've been to Pantibar once, and couldn't stand the place. "The gheys" aren't a hivemind you know?
    I completely accept that, and apologise if I hadn't made this clear before.

    Though surely you are aware of the widespread recreational drug use in this "gay scene"? Again, not having a a go at anyone or passing judgement. I did it myself, and will probably do it again


  • #514
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Links234 wrote: »
    The "gay scene" only represents a subset of the wider LGBT community

    This could come as a surprise to you, but LGBT people have diverse interests and are spread across all walks of life. I've been to Pantibar once, and couldn't stand the place. "The gheys" aren't a hivemind you know?

    Never been in Panti bar...

    Last time I was in a 'gay bar' or indeed any kind of bar was last May. Next time I will be in a bar is next May. There is a hotly contested annual pub quiz (30 years this year) in a certain gay bar in Cork every May...Attendance at same is my total involvement in this apparently compulsory gay bar/nightclub feature of being a ghey.. Do I have to go so I can get my gay licence stamped or I may be excommunicated from the Order of Fabulous?????

    Does it count when the quiz takes place in a 'straight' bar as it has in the past???? :confused:


  • #515
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'm not passing any judgement against ANY people who do drugs, gay or straight. I would have thought that this would have been understood given my own admission. In fact, I can completely understand the appeal being greater for gays to use drugs when feel the need to repress and conceal their true self in their daily lives.

    Like I said it was an observation. One which seems to be supported by the facts.

    Ok, lets say we take at face value your article from the Guardian from 2003 which quotes a study that says quite clearly it used 3,492 young men aged between 15 and 22, an age that one might expect drug use so is totally not applicable to the wider LGBT community.

    Lets say you're quite accurate in your theory that it is negative social stigma and stresses that keep LGBT people marginalized and thus turn to greater drug use, and we identify that as a significant problem, isn't the solution quite clearly to stop discrimination against LGBT people, treat them equally under the law, so that they're not marginalized and disenfranchised? Thus a good argument for marriage equality. ;)


  • #516
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I completely accept that, and apologise if I hadn't made this clear before.

    Though surely you are aware of the widespread recreational drug use in this "gay scene"? Again, not having a a go at anyone or passing judgement. I did it myself, and will probably do it again
    Jesus christ!

    Read my previous post and understand...I'm on the committee of a popular gay night and we have had 1 person out of a good 6-7 popular nights that was seen to be causing any trouble with drugs. We call them PnP (party and play) and a good deal of the gay community don't do that.

    Saying 'gay scene' is a misnomer anyway. The 'scene' is just a section of homosexuality in Ireland. Ask any gay man or woman if they're 'on the scene' and you'll get different answers. There are also many other groups out there, from people who don't want any such affiliation to such scene, to men that are 'non-scene' but may attend niche events like kink or bears or etc etc. You can't use that as a yardstick.


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  • #517
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    The Saturday Night Show will now be expanding their debate to include Internet hate campaigns. Rivers of Bile comes to mind ironically.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Never been in Panti bar...

    Last time I was in a 'gay bar' or indeed any kind of bar was last May. Next time I will be in a bar is next May. There is a hotly contested annual pub quiz (30 years this year) in a certain gay bar in Cork every May...Attendance at same is my total involvement in this apparently compulsory gay bar/nightclub feature of being a ghey.. Do I have to go so I can get my gay licence stamped or I may be excommunicated from the Order of Fabulous?????

    Does it count when the quiz takes place in a 'straight' bar as it has in the past???? :confused:

    You forgot the obligatory lines of cocaine.


  • #518
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Though surely you are aware of the widespread recreational drug use in this "gay scene"?

    No I genuinely am not aware of it, but then again the majority of my LGBT friends don't really frequent the "gay scene" either. When I have gone to gay bars and the like, it's been nothing but cheesy pop and dance music and me itching to get out of there. There's only so much Lady Gaga I can put up with before I want to stab myself in the ear with a rusty bayonette, to put it bluntly.

    But no, I'm not aware of anything other than horrible music and bad beer.


  • #519
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    The Saturday Night Show will now be expanding their debate to include Internet hate campaigns. Rivers of Bile comes to mind ironically.



    You forgot the obligatory lines of cocaine.

    What???

    I never got that memo :mad:

    Feck.

    Explains the queue for the loo...


  • #520
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Links234 wrote: »
    Ok, lets say we take at face value your article from the Guardian from 2003 which quotes a study that says quite clearly it used 3,492 young men aged between 15 and 22, an age that one might expect drug use so is totally not applicable to the wider LGBT community.

    Lets say you're quite accurate in your theory that it is negative social stigma and stresses that keep LGBT people marginalized and thus turn to greater drug use, and we identify that as a significant problem, isn't the solution quite clearly to stop discrimination against LGBT people, treat them equally under the law, so that they're not marginalized and disenfranchised? Thus a good argument for marriage equality. ;)
    Yes, it is. This might seem controversial but if I had a gay son/daughter who was struggling to come to terms with their sexuality and actively trying to supress it to fit in I would (with reservations) encourage them to enter into this same "gay scene" and take socially lubricating chemicals to find themselves among people who I found on the whole to be very warm, welcoming and open. To talk to people who would treat them as equals and understand their journey.

    I am NOT passing judgement against gays for taking more drugs than the straights. I am NOT against gay marriage. I do NOT consider a gay person in some way lesser and or different. All I am saying is that since men and women are biologically and pschyologically different a relationship between two men is different, though not more or less valid, than a relationship between and man and a woman. In the same a relationship between two women is different to a relationship between two men.


  • #521
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    @philipoconnor: So of almost 900 complaints, none were about Rory's comments being offensive, according to RTE press office.

    Still no statement in sight from RTE addressing this. Very telling.

    Clearly not. There were at least two complaints about Rory's comments , and it seem that they Re the only one that rte are interested in.

    MrP


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  • #522
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Yes, it is. This might seem controversial but if I had a gay son/daughter who was struggling to come to terms with their sexuality and actively trying to supress it to fit in I would (with reservations) encourage them to enter into this same "gay scene" and take socially lubricating chemicals to find themselves among people who I found on the whole to be very warm, welcoming and open. To talk to people who would treat them as equals and understand their journey.

    I am NOT passing judgement against gays for taking more drugs than the straights. I am NOT against gay marriage. I do NOT consider a gay person in some way lesser and or different. All I am saying is that since men and women are biologically and pschyologically different a relationship between two men is different, though not more or less valid, than a relationship between and man and a woman. In the same a relationship between two women is different to a relationship between two men.

    I would say that a relationship between two individuals is different to the relationship between two other individuals.

    Not all heterosexual relationships are the same.
    Not all homosexual relationships are the same.

    Human beings are not psychologically all the same.

    As for 'biologically' - that ain't as cut and dried as you state but Links would be better able respond to that


  • #523
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I am NOT passing judgement against gays for taking more drugs than the straights. I am NOT against gay marriage. I do NOT consider a gay person in some way lesser and or different. All I am saying is that since men and women are biologically and pschyologically different a relationship between two men is different, though not more or less valid, than a relationship between and man and a woman. In the same a relationship between two women is different to a relationship between two men.
    But folks like the Iona Institute are saying that gay relationships are less valid, deficient and damaging for children and for society.

    What would you call that if not homophobia?


  • #524
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    But folks like the Iona Institute are saying that gay relationships are less valid, deficient and damaging for children and for society.

    What would you call that if not homophobia?
    If they are saying that gay relationships are invalid then I would say that this is homophobia. If they are saying that gay relationships are less than their ideal then I don't think that this is homophobic. I don't share their opinion but I think toleration has to go both ways.


  • #525
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If they are saying that gay relationships are invalid then I would say that this is homophobia. If they are saying that gay relationships are less than their ideal then I don't think that this is homophobic. I don't share their opinion but I think toleration has to go both ways.

    There is a world of difference between saying 'less than their ideal' as Iona are saying and 'not their ideal'.

    'Less than' = inferior.


  • #526
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Though surely you are aware of the widespread recreational drug use in this "gay scene"? Again, not having a a go at anyone or passing judgement. I did it myself, and will probably do it again
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Yes, it is. This might seem controversial but if I had a gay son/daughter who was struggling to come to terms with their sexuality and actively trying to supress it to fit in I would (with reservations) encourage them to enter into this same "gay scene" and take socially lubricating chemicals to find themselves among people who I found on the whole to be very warm, welcoming and open. To talk to people who would treat them as equals and understand their journey.

    You're so far out of touch mate. My 15 yr old and ALL his pals, male and female, are so accepting of each other's differences that it's a whole new world. With the last inequalities set to be removed, there will hopefully be no "struggle to come to terms" with being gay. Certainly the young wans today don't see this "difference" that you keep trying to make a meal out of.

    Also, are you not aware of the widespread recreational drug use in any scene that attracts young people towards a sense of belonging? I know the "punk scene" had both elements for me and my mates. You just seem to have gravitated towards the "gay scene". Whatev ;)


  • #527
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    There is a world of difference between saying 'less than their ideal' as Iona are saying and 'not their ideal'.

    'Less than' = inferior.
    If that is the case then I would accept the labelling of Iona of in the very least taking a homophobic position. Is there a press release or something official which states this position?


  • #528
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If they are saying that gay relationships are invalid then I would say that this is homophobia. If they are saying that gay relationships are less than their ideal then I don't think that this is homophobic. I don't share their opinion but I think toleration has to go both ways.
    The do say they are less valid. They are saying they shouldn't be allowed the same rights because they are less valid.
    The claim that they are damaging to children and society, that makes them less valid.

    Whats the difference between invalid and "less than ideal"?


  • #529
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    You'll get sued for using one of them?


  • #530
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I would actually think that change happened a good few years ago. A lot of people in their 20s that I know and grew up with sound exactly like the above.

    It's rapidly becoming very boringly normal.

    Let's not forget how fast thing can change.

    Go back to the 1950s and a woman wearing trousers would have been talk of the town.
    Having a job (other than a teacher or nurse etc) would have equally been jaw dropping.

    Go back to the 1940s and you'd a situation where Harvard would not hire Grace Hopper because they didn't hire women professors. This is the woman who invented the compiler and pretty much the concept of programming languages. Once WWII was over, she was basically booted out of the navy and Harvard as they didn't need women anymore. Hopper was a charismatic super genius who subsequently would go on to do amazing things in the IT world.

    When Hopper was sidelined by academia (although she could have gotten professorships at less famous universities) and the Navy after WWII she actually also went into deep depression and drinking etc and nearly didn't make it to the 1950s. Her team from Harvard rescued her and she went on to do really huge deal stuff as a senior director at UniVac (one of the first computer companies) and became an US Navy Admiral.

    Go to the UK and record labels wouldn't hire women in studio production roles. The result was people like Delia Derbyshire pioneer of electronic music 30 years ahead of her time and Daphne Oram ( built the first analog synthesiser) and was doing electronic music in the 50s, couldn't get jobs in the music industry! They ended up working in an obscure unit of the BBC doing soundtracks for Doctor Who etc

    A few years earlier 'the powers that were' were forcing Alan Turing, the guy who basically is the Father of Modern computing and whose code cracking systems saved millions of British lives was persecuted for being gay. He was forced to take hormone therapies that made him lethargic, gain weight, grow breasts and he actually committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple. The Apple logo (apple with a bite out of it) is apparently a tribute to him BTW.


    Go back to the US in the 1950s and you had full legalised, legislated for racism in several states. In a country that at the same time talked about itself as the land of the free (as long as you were a white, male and probably not gay).

    Fast forward to 2014 you would be laughed out of town for having attitudes like that.

    Lots and lots of amazing people didn't make it because of deep social conservatism. We should never forget that.

    Society changes and changes very very quickly sometimes.

    .....

    Edit (bit of an OT footnote for anyone interested)

    BTW : If anyone's interested in learning a little more about Hopper check out these links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-vcErOPofQ (Letterman appearance in the early 90s) and from talks at Google : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY6Hk8_eiKs (Biographer starts a few mins in) .. quite interesting if you've a bit of time.

    One of the strangest things was that she also possibly helped launch Marilyn Monroe's career! In order to prove the COBOL was easy to learn, she used Monroe (not famous at that stage) as a marketing model. Basically, Hopper trained Marilyn Monroe to be a COBOL programmer to prove that 'anyone' could do it, including glamorous blond beauty queen types.
    So it's a little known fact that Marilyn Monroe was actually a closet computer geek!

    Turing:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/people/alan_turing
    (Google around there's absolutely tons about him)

    Delia Derbyshire and Daphne Oram can also easily be YouTubed if you're interested in listening to some very early electronica.


  • #531
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I should have and meant to say "more socially acceptable". It is an honest observation, which I can only assume has been observed by gays themselves within the "gay scene".

    It's an interesting point.
    But then you have to realise a huge amount of gay people don't go on the gay scene regularly so I could accept your thesis that yes this happens a lot on the gay scene but I cannot accept your extrapolation that therefore most lgbt people are hedonistic drug users.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #532
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,241 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Go back to the US in the 1950s and you had full legalised, legislated for racism in several states. In a country that at the same time talked about itself as the land of the free (as long as you were a white, male and probably not gay).

    Amazingly, 'sodomy' laws in the US were only finally struck down in 2003.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #533
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    BTW Ireland wasn't always at the forefront of conservatism.
    For example one of the very first things we did in 1922 was universal suffrage which immediately gave women full voting rights.

    UCC also appointed the first female full professor at any university in what was then the UK and it and several other Irish universities were graduating female medical doctors decades before the major UK institutions.

    We also had one of the first ever female cabinet ministers.

    We seemed to sink into social conservatism from the 30s onwards though and our very idealised and forward thinking notions of a new Ireland suddenly became a very conservative place.

    You would wonder what happened to all that idealism..


  • #534
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,241 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    BTW Ireland wasn't always at the forefront of conservatism.
    For example one of the very first things we did in 1922 was universal suffrage which immediately gave women full voting rights.

    And don't forget Constant Markievicz who gave his life in Stephen's Green for our freedom ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqIbWacFRQ


    We seemed to sink into social conservatism from the 30s onwards though and our very idealised and forward thinking notions of a new Ireland suddenly became a very conservative place.

    You would wonder what happened to all that idealism..

    With O'Leary in the grave... There were a lot of liberals, socialists and progressives involved in the independence struggle, but the conservative catholics increasingly sidelined them thereafter and for most of the rest of the century.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #535
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    It was remarkable though how conservative Ireland became.

    There was most definitely a power grab that resulted in a strange religious corporatist state for several decades.

    You also had a lot of things that just continued as if nothing had changed with independence and they became frozen in British public administration as it was in 1921.

    I mean for example the courts and judicial system structure didn't even reflect the constitution until the 1960s! (1961 to be precise)


  • #536
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'm not passing any judgement against ANY people who do drugs, gay or straight. I would have thought that this would have been understood given my own admission. In fact, I can completely understand the appeal being greater for gays to use drugs when feel the need to repress and conceal their true self in their daily lives.

    ...........

    'Nothing against them but...' part deux....


  • #537
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    It was remarkable though how conservative Ireland became.

    There was most definitely a power grab that resulted in a strange religious corporatist state for several decades.

    You also had a lot of things that just continued as if nothing had changed with independence and they became frozen in British public administration as it was in 1921.

    I mean for example the courts and judicial system structure didn't even reflect the constitution until the 1960s! (1961 to be precise)
    That is a very interesting topic, which I think it only starting to be appreciated and discussed. I think some of it has to do with what the new State actually consisted of, and who really held power in it. Some of this kind of thing is explored in Tom Garvin's "Preventing the Future", but that book is really just an exploration of one way of looking at it.

    Usually, you find political arrangements are the way they are because they suit a surprisingly large group of people. I'd suggest that needs to be the hypothesis, when we try to understand why Irish independence turned out the way it did.


  • #538
    unfortunately
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭unfortunately


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The Apple logo (apple with a bite out of it) is apparently a tribute to him BTW.
    This is actually a coincidence, Stephen Fry happened to met Steve Jobs and asked him about it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=204Cu_1XksI&t=2m32s


  • #539
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    'Nothing against them but...' part deux....
    There is no "but". It's a baseless and horrible accusation.

    I don't see how your repeated hollow and offensive allegations amount to anything other than bullying. You are aware that if I report a post nothing will be done by the mods. You are aware that if I even try to get people to support their baseless allegations then I am the one who is punished, you even thanked the punishment. So you are attacking someone who is defenseless, so please stop. If not for my sake then for the sake of the gay community. Empty and repeated empty accusations of homophobia are a discredit to the actual sufferers of this prejudice.


  • #540
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,241 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ninja900 wrote: »
    There were a lot of liberals, socialists and progressives involved in the independence struggle

    I forgot to mention.. Protestants!! Airbrushed out of history by the catholic 'educators', maligned as 'brits', bred out of existence with Ne Temere, and generally obliged to keep their heads down and not complain too much about how Home Rule had indeed turned into Rome Rule.

    I read an interesting article in December about former Dean of St. Patrick's Cathedral, Victor Griffin.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/a-pluralist-protestant-1.1626876
    When Griffin was growing up, on a farm at Carnew, on the border between Cos Wexford and Wicklow, his mother used to say, “Keep off religion and politics, Victor, or you’ll get us all burned out.” It was the Ireland of the 1920s and 1930s, and the family feared they would be associated “with the Protestant ascendancy, with the Unionists, so you had to keep quiet”.
    One of the tragedies of Ireland is “the lack of integrated education”. He saw no reason “why integration should do away with the churches’ influence. The churches should take the lead in these things. It would improve the situation in all Ireland tremendously.”

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • #541
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no "but". It's a baseless and horrible accusation.

    I don't see how your repeated hollow and offensive allegations amount to anything other than bullying. You are aware that if I report a post nothing will be done by the mods. You are aware that if I even try to get people to support their baseless allegations then I am the one who is punished, you even thanked the punishment. So you are attacking someone who is defenseless, so please stop. If not for my sake then for the sake of the gay community. Empty and repeated empty accusations of homophobia are a discredit to the actual sufferers of this prejudice.
    I'm fairly certain that most of the lgbt users that read your comments found them absurdly offensive.


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