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Should Ireland become a member of CERN?

24

Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    How many experimental particle physicists does Ireland produce nowadays?

    I would think climate and meteorological institutes would be better investment in the coming years


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    yes


  • #34
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    riffmongous wrote: »
    How many experimental particle physicists does Ireland produce nowadays?

    I would think climate and meteorological institutes would be better investment in the coming years

    We're producing plenty of engineers and technicians in other areas, though. And they're the ones hamstrung by the decision of the government not to sign up. They, and the Irish companies they work for can not apply for lucrative tenders offered by CERN.


  • #35
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    How much are we shovelling over for some lad to become Ambassador to the Vatican again? Seems like this might (!) be a better use of money.


  • #36
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    so we shouldn't be involved in new research because the stuff we have is good enough.

    sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

    your comparison to the space program is interesting, consider te technology developed from that, those who were in it from the beginning got the most benefit

    and more importantly than all the velcro and polymers and other great stuff developed from the program, the advancement in human understanding of the universe would be enough to justify the billions spent

    Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .


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  • #37
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Yes, we have some of those sub, sub atomic particles CERN are looking for, the brains of anyone in Fianna Fail grassroots.


  • #38
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .

    Nearly as half much (per GDP) as went on defence spending during the sixties...


  • #39
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Is there anything to be said for having another mass? "Mass" even sounds a bit sciency.

    They say Father Clippit does a good long mass. Three hours he does, on a good night. Since his stroke.


  • #40
    Tzar Chasm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .


    but a lot of what was developed in more modest projects could not have happened without the overarching grand project of NASA, the space program was a driving force in technological development.

    CERN is leading the way in broadening our understanding of quantum mechanics, the very fundamental particles of the universe, any developments in energy or material science in the future will undoubtedly be due to work done in CERN right now.

    the moon seemed far away and difficult in the 1950's but today there is a permanent manned presence in orbit and we landed something the size of a ford mondeo on mars.


  • #41
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,183 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    ride-the-spiral wrote: »
    It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

    Great value and yes, I think we should join. We should have do so years ago.

    The only problem I anticipate is the €50 million+ out shower would splash out on consultants to advise them on the benefits of joining.


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  • #42
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    ride-the-spiral wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

    A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

    It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

    Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

    Other than getting to say we are part of CERN, what do we get for this Million per year?


  • #43
    Says I To Bridey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Says I To Bridey


    Crazy that we're not a member. We should definitely join up. Unfortunately, Sean Sherlock is the one who decides. He's probably more likely to completely blacklist us from ever joining than getting something right


  • #44
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Of course we should join, when they've finished with the tunnel we can straighten it out and would have a tunnel ready made to get about a quarter of the way between Dublin and Holyhead


  • #45
    brimal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭brimal


    Yes I think Ireland should become a member of CERN.

    €1million euro really isn't much when you think about the benefits, opportunities, status, inspiration, etc. being part if this can bring to our country.

    A month ago Israel became a full-time member (first non-European country to do so) and it's given their already flourishing Science industry a great boost.


  • #46
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Should have been done decades ago - need much better encouragement of scientific research in this country, and opportunities for graduates, and this would help a lot with that.

    It would benefit us economically, through enabling Ireland to take part in the tendering process for CERN projects, and simply through encouraging wider study of scientific-fields, which will have a knock-on effect throughout our economy, as we have a wider based of graduates who have invested time to develop skills/knowledge in scientific fields.

    Scientific research is a no-lose area of economic development: There is never in history, going to be an end to scientific research and the work (intellectual and physical) that needs to be done surrounding it - it will go on forever - the only thing in question is, as a society, how much of our resources will we put into it?


    That our government is currently mismanaging the countries economy, wasting idle labour that could be put to use, is not an excuse for avoiding participation in CERN - not anymore than it's an excuse to slash spending in other areas that we are told "we just don't have the money for".

    Our spending limit isn't actually the funds that government has at hand (there are other methods of funding that allow much greater expansion of spending), it is the amount of manpower we have available to spend money on - while tweaking wages/taxes and the type of work done (based on scarce resources used with that work), to keep inflation in target.


  • #47
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    1 X Large Hadron Collider €3.6 billion (To build)
    1 X Anglo Irish Bank bailout cost to state : €29.3 billion.

    I know which I'd rather have had!
    Christ - that's a pretty good way of putting into perspective, the sheer enormity of our bailout - eight Large Hadron Colliders.


  • #48
    sawdoubters
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN


  • #49
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    SpaceTime wrote: »

    CERN researchers also produced quite a few things on the side, small little insignificant things like the World Wide Web.

    That was Al Gore ;)


  • #50
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Ireland produces some f*cking astounding researchers in every science, how we still haven't signed up for CERN is ridiculous.


  • #51
    fermi-paradox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭fermi-paradox


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Christ - that's a pretty good way of putting into perspective, the sheer enormity of our bailout - eight Large Hadron Colliders.

    For that we could have built the Massive Hadron Collider under the M50 and got a free underground railway from Bray to the airport. In fact, the huge stores of density in the Dail right near the center could have seeded a black hole and the incinerator money might have been saved as well.


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  • #52
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Christ - that's a pretty good way of putting into perspective, the sheer enormity of our bailout - eight Large Hadron Colliders.

    Eh the total cost of the banking bailout was over €41 billion (to date). There are lots of other costs excluded from that too. The figure I quoted was only for Anglo!

    For that we could probably have had the LHD under the M50 and a manned mission to Mars.


  • #53
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    Really? Can you tell me how that works? You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?
    Let's look at one one government depts dealings with one category of client.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/annual-reports/2012/objectives-1.html
    The new electronic Relevant Contracts Tax (eRCT) system was implemented by Revenue from 1 January 2012. All principal contractors in the construction, forestry and meat processing sectors are now obliged to submit information, data, payments and returns to Revenue electronically.
    ...
    In terms of the administrative burden for businesses, savings have been estimated at €24.3 million per annum. Over 1 million paper documents have been eliminated from the system freeing up 104 Revenue personnel for redeployment to other work. It is estimated that this has resulted in €3.7 million in pay and non-pay savings in respect of staff allocated to processing RCT.

    Most of the research funding here is subsidies for companies rather than pure research. Stuff like being 90% certain of improving existing widgets by 10% would have a much better chance of being funded.


    CERN has already paid for itself with the World Wide Web. And that's the whole point. Investing in long shots doesn't always pay off. But sometimes it pays off big. And sometimes it's in ways you don't expect.


    The ITER (Fusion) and CERN are still working out at less than the Hinckley C nuclear power station.


  • #54
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Let's look at one one government depts dealings with one category of client.

    How does that relate to the Irish Govt spending money on CERN? What you provided was an example of electronic rationalising of bureaucracy.

    What I'm asking for is some sort of evidence for the claim made below.
    ride-the-spiral wrote: »
    It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.
    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?


  • #55
    flynnlives
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 739 ✭✭✭flynnlives


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    How does that relate to the Irish Govt spending money on CERN? What you provided was an example of electronic rationalising of bureaucracy.

    What I'm asking for is some sort of evidence for the claim made below.


    its quite simple really.

    by contributing Irish people and companies will be able to tender for contracts and research projects at CERN. These are worth multiples of what we would contribute. Creating jobs here and other ancillary companies.
    If you cant deduce the above then maybe you should insert the insulation in the attic instead of your head.


  • #56
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    How does that relate to the Irish Govt spending money on CERN? What you provided was an example of electronic rationalising of bureaucracy.
    Maybe if you actually read my post ?

    If CERN hadn't existed then the internet might have developed in a different way with walled gardens and incompatibilities , imagine each ISP aliging with one of ten different versions of AOL.

    Imagine if Microsoft or Apple had patented hyperlinks you wouldn't be able to navigate by clicking on a link in a page.

    Compared to the ISS , CERN is excellent value for money.


    And there is still that quest, "to know the mind of God" and if the neutrinos start mutating then we'll know what to expect


  • #57
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    flynnlives wrote: »
    by contributing Irish people and companies will be able to tender for contracts and research projects at CERN. These are worth multiples of what we would contribute. Creating jobs here and other ancillary companies.

    Source?
    If you cant deduce the above then maybe you should insert the insulation in the attic instead of your head.

    Maybe you should back up your claim or go back to your crayons and colouring books.

    It's funny how people so supportive of spending money on scientific endeavour become all angry and evangelical when asked for proof of their god spurious claims.


  • #58
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Maybe if you actually read my post ?

    I did and it does not address my question - which you've ignored too.
    If CERN hadn't existed then the internet might have developed in a different way with walled gardens and incompatibilities , imagine each ISP aliging with one of ten different versions of AOL.

    'Ifs', 'buts' and 'might haves'. If we hadn't spent money on the space race we might have had an amazing network of inter-continental fiber optic cables 40 years ago. See that? I can bend the ifs and buts to cast aspersions on counter-arguments too.
    Imagine if Microsoft or Apple had patented hyperlinks you wouldn't be able to navigate by clicking on a link in a page.

    'Ifs' again.
    Compared to the ISS , CERN is excellent value for money.

    Says who?


  • #59
    flynnlives
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 739 ✭✭✭flynnlives


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    Source?

    knock yourself out!
    http://procurement.web.cern.ch/how-to-do-business-with-cern

    here are 40 open tenders all above 200k swiss francs or over 160k euro
    https://found.cern.ch/java-ext/found/CFTSearch.do
    quite a number of which are B grade which means - B represents items between 750 kCHF and 5 MCHF

    you will note
    The Country of Origin for supplies and services shall be CERN Member States


  • #60
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    flynnlives wrote: »
    you will note:
    The Country of Origin for supplies and services shall be CERN Member States

    Why didn't you include the rest of the sentence?
    The Country of Origin for supplies and services shall be CERN Member States, unless stated otherwise

    My emphasis. So the argument that only countries that are members of CERN will get contracts is.. em.. wrong?

    Of course all this is moot because it presumes that Ireland could compete for contracts with England, Germany and France.


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  • #61
    flynnlives
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 739 ✭✭✭flynnlives


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    Why didn't you include the rest of the sentence?



    My emphasis. So the argument that only countries that are members of CERN will get contracts is.. em.. wrong?

    Of course all this is moot because it presumes that Ireland could compete for contracts with England, Germany and France.

    this is what they mean
    The countries of origin of supplies and services shall be CERN Member States, except if provided otherwise in the table below.
    which is on the tender page and whcih they mean associate or pre stage members or else if they feel they need particular expertise they will open it to a wider audience. But that is probably few and far between.
    And you still need to be a citizen of a member country to work there. So by and large we are missing out.

    And why cant we compete against England, Germany and France?!
    are you really that ignorant to assume Irish companies cant compete with these countries?

    What exactly is your issue with this idea? you seem to have some gripe with spending 1 million euros on the project.
    If only you would but your energy into whining about the billions we sunk into literal black holes like anglo.


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