Should Ireland become a member of CERN?

ride-the-spiral

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

wes

We have spent far more money, on stuff far less worthy. So yes, we should join.

burnhardlanger

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

So a million a year for a newsletter?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

The Irish government have absolutely no interest in fundamental scientific research at the moment. It costs a lot, is prone to failure, takes ages and ,in their view, has no commercial benefit. CERN is probably the most fundamental of fundamental research therefore does not fit the current model of spending. I think this model is short sighted and extremely harmful to the Irish research community but sure there ya go, no one wants to hear that.

So yes we should join, but we won't.

My name is URL

We should join, obviously. But joining shouldn't be a prerequisite for Irish companies and scientists to be offered tenders.

It's not the fault of research institutions etc that our government refuse to sign up, yet they are the ones being put at a disadvantage because of it. We could be producing the best scientists, and have the most expertise when it comes to the tenders being offered, but CERN won't even consider those people for the role because of politics. It doesn't seem all that progressive for what is the biggest scientific endeavour in history.

I know they need to be funded, but they should be giving jobs to the best suited people regardless of the politics and economics of the country they live in.

Karl Stein

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Really? Can you tell me how that works? You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?

Alun

My name is URL wrote: »

We should join, obviously. But joining shouldn't be a prerequisite for Irish companies and scientists to be offered tenders.

It seems to be the way European scientific / technical institutions work, certainly it's the case for one I'm familiar with, ESA.

There was a continuous merry-go-round of countries going in and out of favour there depending on how much they paid in in contributions, and companies from the corresponding countries getting contracts. What was interesting though was that in many cases all that happened was that the same contract staff, regardless of their nationalities, simply moved to the new company and carried on doing the same work as before, so nothing really changed.

So, I'm sure there are plenty of Irish staff working at CERN, just not for Irish companies.

BTW Ireland are still a member of ESA as far as I know.

bumper234

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Really? Can you tell me how that works? You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?

1 million a year is hardly "ploughing" and it certainly would benefit Irish companies. Why spend it on home insulation? Do you own an Insulation company? :rolleyes:

RDM_83 again

No we shouldn't. To my mind CERN is a bit like the space program in its earlier years albeit with a purer vision, is there any Irish companies even in a position to tender for parts, if we gain membership we'l end up paying for a lot of skiing trips too etc. Now I know this may sound like an anti-science/knowledge viewpoint. But we already do good research in the Physics field particularly in areas that may be helpful to the Irish economy and why not do some more blue skies research in the Biological fields that may conceivably produce direct positives for Ireland.
While a million a year might not sound like a huge amount it would support a full research team in a separate area.
CERN won't be held back by Irelands lack of membership, and are we really at a loss because we aren't a footnote in the press releases containing nice shiny pictures of big machines and titles like the "god particle".

Tzar Chasm

not being members of cern really hurts us as a nation, we are churning out science graduates, but they can't take part in one of the biggest physics projects ever undertaken due to the shortsightedness of irish politics.

we should have signed up to it many years ago

The Diabolical Monocle

But we already created a black hole...


...in the economy that is.


(ba dum tssh)

Augmerson

I GUESS THIS JUST DOESN'T CONCERN THE IRISH GOVERNMENT HAHAHAHAHA ahhh the bunch of ****ing ***** that they are. We should really do it.

SpaceTime

We should absolutely be a member of it!
It's kind of ridiculous to be calling ourselves a centre for scientific innovation while ignoring stuff like CERN at an official level.

There are also plenty of other member countries that don't have any nuclear programmes so, it's hardly an excuse for non membership either.

Tzar Chasm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

No we shouldn't. To my mind CERN is a bit like the space program in its earlier years albeit with a purer vision, is there any Irish companies even in a position to tender for parts, if we gain membership we'l end up paying for a lot of skiing trips too etc. Now I know this may sound like an anti-science/knowledge viewpoint. But we already do good research in the Physics field particularly in areas that may be helpful to the Irish economy and why not do some more blue skies research in the Biological fields that may conceivably produce direct positives for Ireland.
While a million a year might not sound like a huge amount it would support a full research team in a separate area.
CERN won't be held back by Irelands lack of membership, and are we really at a loss because we aren't a footnote in the press releases containing nice shiny pictures of big machines and titles like the "god particle".

so we shouldn't be involved in new research because the stuff we have is good enough.

sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

your comparison to the space program is interesting, consider te technology developed from that, those who were in it from the beginning got the most benefit

and more importantly than all the velcro and polymers and other great stuff developed from the program, the advancement in human understanding of the universe would be enough to justify the billions spent

Karl Stein

It's more than a little ironic, don't you think, that people get all defensive when you ask for some sort of evidence on a thread calling for money to be spent on scientific endeavour.

bumper234 wrote: »

it certainly would benefit Irish companies.

How?

Why spend it on home insulation?

It puts people to work locally.
They spend their wages locally.
The vans need diesel, the workers need breakfast rolls.
People who have their houses insulated save money on bills which can be spent locally.

You get me?

Do you own an Insulation company?

No. Insulating homes is a good example of how the government can spend to stimulate the economy closer to home as opposed to making a spurious claim of future return.

:rolleyes:

What cute little face you have.

The Diabolical Monocle

Augmerson wrote: »

I GUESS THIS JUST DOESN'T CONCERN THE IRISH GOVERNMENT HAHAHAHAHA ahhh the bunch of ****ing ***** that they are. We should really do it.

Hey we should team up.

I already do wedding, birthdays and *bah-mitzvah's



*(2% discount)

SpaceTime

We're not even an observer member which is utterly ridiculous.
Basically, all other major EU member states, including Greece and Portugal seem to be full members of it.

Do we really want to be in a situation that where we have to ask Germany or even Belgium to borrow their worm hole ?!

CERN researchers also produced quite a few things on the side, small little insignificant things like the World Wide Web.

Surely membership would be a huge benefit to Ireland's physics, computer science and electronic engineering departments in the major universities at the very least?

Could we cancel the re-opening the vatican embassy and spend the cash on CERN membership instead??

Karl Stein

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

Tbh it's your response that's idiotic. Why don't you take the individual points he's made and counter them?

flynnlives

I applied for a job there years ago but my application was rejected because we aren't a member

Ireland should defo be involved, we have contributed massively to Physics and particle and atomic research;

Ernest Walton, Nobel prize for Physics first person in history to split the atom
Robert Boyle, Boyles law
William Hamilton, invented Hamilton quaternions
Erwin Schrödinger, Schrodingers cat fame
Nicholas Callan, invented the induction coil
Jocelyn Bell Burnell discovered pulsars and was imo robbed of the noel prize
Lord Kelvin, absolute zero, Kelvin scale
George Stoney, named the electron
John Tyndall explained why the sky is blue!!

SpaceTime

I actually know one person who took out UK citizenship to get a job in there!

It's also a *HUGE* missed networking opportunity for Ireland Inc.
The fact that our universities aren't really participating probably means that our academics are not quite in the loop and that our PhD graduates aren't getting the opportunities they should.

Also, it's sending a lot of Irish people to the US instead of to much closer by France/Switzerland to an institution that our universities would actually be directly connected to and benefiting from, which is kind of stupid too.

It's one of the few massive pieces of scientific research equipment that we have every possibility of having 100% full access to.

If Ireland applied, I would be very confident that we'd actually be welcomed with open arms. So, I don't know why exactly we haven't signed up years ago!

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

Surely membership would be a huge benefit to Ireland's physics, computer science and electronic engineering departments in the major universities at the very least?

It benefits STEM in Ireland as a whole as it would show the government in Ireland are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Not being a member doesn't help that not being a member(or even observer) makes Ireland look backwards in comparison to other countries in STEM fields

Tzar Chasm

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Tbh it's your response that's idiotic. Why don't you take the individual points he's made and counter them?

I did counter his points, the comparison to the space program demonstrated a lack of understanding of the benefits gleaned from such undertakings


my point stands, taking the position that we already have plenty of industry making stuff so there's no need to go developing new technologies is an idiotic stance, without things like cern or esa we have no advancement, the line of thought championed in that post is reflective of an attitude that would send us backwards as a species

SpaceTime

Yeah, I'd agree with that. At an EU level it sends out a very negative message about Ireland when we're trying to portray ourselves as a cutting edge home to R&D investment.

It just looks like we've no interest in science and would leave a lot of question marks over why we haven't bothered signing up.

I'm actually very surprised that our major universities haven't been a lot noisier about it!
We shouldn't ever have a position where Ireland's isolated from these kinds of things purely by lack of action on behalf our politicians or state bodies.

bumper234

Charles Rocher wrote: »

It's more than a little ironic, don't you think, that people get all defensive when you ask for some sort of evidence on a thread calling for money to be spent on scientific endeavour.



How?

Are you saying that there is NO chance any Irish company will ever get some work via the tenders?

It puts people to work locally.
They spend their wages locally.
The vans need diesel, the workers need breakfast rolls.
People who have their houses insulated save money on bills which can be spent locally.

The same could be said for the countless BILLIONS being spent on other projects that have not created a single job.

You get me?

No

No. Insulating homes is a good example of how the government can spend to stimulate the economy closer to home as opposed to making a spurious claim of future return.

But being a part of the BIGGEST scientific research project ever taken is not a good idea?

What cute little face you have.

Thank you, I have been working on the eyes.

SpaceTime

To me, it makes us look insular and lacking vision to be perfectly honest. Other countries are putting their money where there mouth is and investing in what is the most cutting edge physics research facility on the planet pretty much bar none.

CERN is to Europe what NASA is to the US in many respects. It's that fundamental in terms of what it's done in pushing out the boundaries of knowledge.

It's also a very shining example of European corporative efforts to solve major scientific problems.

I'd rather see some of our national income going on projects that push the boundaries of science than on bailing out failed banks and cleaning up after property bubbles!

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm actually very surprised that our major universities haven't been a lot noisier about it!
We shouldn't ever have a position where Ireland's isolated from these kinds of things purely by lack of action on behalf our politicians or state bodies.

some are happy to keep the status quo. one uni did have a research contract offered on the condition of membership and did make a push but were shot down. a few people that graduated from my course are working there but on UK/Dutch citizenship's

SpaceTime

1 X Large Hadron Collider €3.6 billion (To build)
1 X Anglo Irish Bank bailout cost to state : €29.3 billion.

I know which I'd rather have had!

SpaceTime

NTMK wrote: »

some are happy to keep the status quo. one uni did have a research contract offered on the condition of membership and did make a push but were shot down. a few people that graduated from my course are working there but on UK/Dutch citizenship's

Shot down by CERN or by the Irish "powers that be" and keepers of the purse?

Ruu

Took a Coursera class on Internet History that dealt with CERN (Tim Berners Lee, mostly) and got me very interested in the organisation, was disappointed when found out Ireland was not a member.

ScumLord

Is there anything to be said for having another mass? "Mass" even sounds a bit sciency.

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

Shot down by CERN or by the Irish "powers that be" and keepers of the purse?

Keepers of the Purse i believe. CERN did want to work with the uni but they're bound by their own rules (which are fair imo). UCD/DCU have some sort of deal in place but nothing like proper status.

The company i left ireland to work for would exist without ESA/NASA/CERN and as a result we wouldnt have been able to apply what we learned making super expensive pieces of kit into our standard products which help a lot of people (mostly medical and emergency service areas).

riffmongous

How many experimental particle physicists does Ireland produce nowadays?

I would think climate and meteorological institutes would be better investment in the coming years

yes

My name is URL

riffmongous wrote: »

How many experimental particle physicists does Ireland produce nowadays?

I would think climate and meteorological institutes would be better investment in the coming years

We're producing plenty of engineers and technicians in other areas, though. And they're the ones hamstrung by the decision of the government not to sign up. They, and the Irish companies they work for can not apply for lucrative tenders offered by CERN.

c_man

How much are we shovelling over for some lad to become Ambassador to the Vatican again? Seems like this might (!) be a better use of money.

RDM_83 again

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

so we shouldn't be involved in new research because the stuff we have is good enough.

sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

your comparison to the space program is interesting, consider te technology developed from that, those who were in it from the beginning got the most benefit

and more importantly than all the velcro and polymers and other great stuff developed from the program, the advancement in human understanding of the universe would be enough to justify the billions spent

Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .

RobbingBandit

Yes, we have some of those sub, sub atomic particles CERN are looking for, the brains of anyone in Fianna Fail grassroots.

c_man

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .

Nearly as half much (per GDP) as went on defence spending during the sixties...

Sir Arthur Daley

ScumLord wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for having another mass? "Mass" even sounds a bit sciency.

They say Father Clippit does a good long mass. Three hours he does, on a good night. Since his stroke.

Tzar Chasm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Do you realise how much money was Spent on the early Space Program on Phone now so can't get figures but it was an Around 5 Percent of total USA spending if that vast Amount of funds had been Applied to more modest Projects who Knows what would have been discovered .

but a lot of what was developed in more modest projects could not have happened without the overarching grand project of NASA, the space program was a driving force in technological development.

CERN is leading the way in broadening our understanding of quantum mechanics, the very fundamental particles of the universe, any developments in energy or material science in the future will undoubtedly be due to work done in CERN right now.

the moon seemed far away and difficult in the 1950's but today there is a permanent manned presence in orbit and we landed something the size of a ford mondeo on mars.

Lapin

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Great value and yes, I think we should join. We should have do so years ago.

The only problem I anticipate is the €50 million+ out shower would splash out on consultants to advise them on the benefits of joining.

GaelMise

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

Other than getting to say we are part of CERN, what do we get for this Million per year?

Says I To Bridey

Crazy that we're not a member. We should definitely join up. Unfortunately, Sean Sherlock is the one who decides. He's probably more likely to completely blacklist us from ever joining than getting something right

Spook_ie

Of course we should join, when they've finished with the tunnel we can straighten it out and would have a tunnel ready made to get about a quarter of the way between Dublin and Holyhead

brimal

Yes I think Ireland should become a member of CERN.

€1million euro really isn't much when you think about the benefits, opportunities, status, inspiration, etc. being part if this can bring to our country.

A month ago Israel became a full-time member (first non-European country to do so) and it's given their already flourishing Science industry a great boost.

KyussBishop

Should have been done decades ago - need much better encouragement of scientific research in this country, and opportunities for graduates, and this would help a lot with that.

It would benefit us economically, through enabling Ireland to take part in the tendering process for CERN projects, and simply through encouraging wider study of scientific-fields, which will have a knock-on effect throughout our economy, as we have a wider based of graduates who have invested time to develop skills/knowledge in scientific fields.

Scientific research is a no-lose area of economic development: There is never in history, going to be an end to scientific research and the work (intellectual and physical) that needs to be done surrounding it - it will go on forever - the only thing in question is, as a society, how much of our resources will we put into it?


That our government is currently mismanaging the countries economy, wasting idle labour that could be put to use, is not an excuse for avoiding participation in CERN - not anymore than it's an excuse to slash spending in other areas that we are told "we just don't have the money for".

Our spending limit isn't actually the funds that government has at hand (there are other methods of funding that allow much greater expansion of spending), it is the amount of manpower we have available to spend money on - while tweaking wages/taxes and the type of work done (based on scarce resources used with that work), to keep inflation in target.

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

1 X Large Hadron Collider €3.6 billion (To build)
1 X Anglo Irish Bank bailout cost to state : €29.3 billion.

I know which I'd rather have had!

Christ - that's a pretty good way of putting into perspective, the sheer enormity of our bailout - eight Large Hadron Colliders.

sawdoubters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN

mikemac1

SpaceTime wrote: »

CERN researchers also produced quite a few things on the side, small little insignificant things like the World Wide Web.

That was Al Gore

Sarky

Ireland produces some f*cking astounding researchers in every science, how we still haven't signed up for CERN is ridiculous.

fermi-paradox

KyussBishop wrote: »

Christ - that's a pretty good way of putting into perspective, the sheer enormity of our bailout - eight Large Hadron Colliders.

For that we could have built the Massive Hadron Collider under the M50 and got a free underground railway from Bray to the airport. In fact, the huge stores of density in the Dail right near the center could have seeded a black hole and the incinerator money might have been saved as well.