Pylons

Blahblah2012 · 28-01-2014 04:53PM

Heroditas wrote: »

See, now this is just semantics. Just because someone doesn't refute your unfounded accusation, that doesn't make your accustaion ring true.

Not refuting it and coming on this forum attemptimg to do ESB/Eirgrids dirty work says enough!!

Who else, other than people with a vested interest in this SCHEME...would bother to go to such lengths to try to justify such a gluttonous monstrosity?

Heroditas wrote: »

Digging up posters' post history to try and further your case is pretty pathetic.

Really?

Heroditas · 28-01-2014 05:00PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Not refuting it and coming on this forum attemptimg to do ESB/Eirgrids dirty work says enough!!

Who else, other than people with a vested interest in this SCHEME...would bother to go to such lengths to try to justify such a gluttonous monstrosity?

Do you honestly think that the likes of ESB or Eirgrid give a flying fcuk what a few people like ourselves post on a sub-forum on the internet?
Don't kid yourself.
Talk about an overly-inflated opinion of your own importance! :rolleyes:

Blahblah2012 · 28-01-2014 05:06PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Do you honestly think that the likes of ESB or Eirgrid give a flying fcuk what a few people like ourselves post on a sub-forum on the internet?

I don't work for them so I don't know what they think. You seem to know though!!

But it is of course a free platform for them to pontificate to the people!!

Heroditas · 28-01-2014 05:17PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

I don't work for them so I don't know what they think. You seem to know though!!

There you go again with your paranoid insinuations and leaps of faith.

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

But it is of course a free platform for them to pontificate to the people!!

Physician, heal thyself

Blahblah2012 · 28-01-2014 05:22PM

Heroditas wrote: »

There you go again with your paranoid insinuations and leaps of faith.

Eh...no. The dope smoker(or former dope smoker as he wants us to believe) is a few posts back. I think he was saying something about going for a walk?

Heroditas wrote: »

Physician, heal thyself

Not sure what you're waffling. Been at the gange yourself?

Tired of this, banned!

Mountainsandh · 28-01-2014 09:15PM

in case some might not have seen/heard it :

http://www.thejournal.ie/eirgrid-pylon-electricity-rabbitte-consultation-1287028-Jan2014/

Election oriented delaying tactics and sidetracking from the issue of whether the mega scale of the project is justified, but it's better than no action/reaction.

Heroditas · 28-01-2014 10:24PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

in case some might not have seen/heard it :

http://www.thejournal.ie/eirgrid-pylon-electricity-rabbitte-consultation-1287028-Jan2014/

Election oriented delaying tactics and sidetracking from the issue of whether the mega scale of the project is justified, but it's better than no action/reaction.

I can tell you straight away what Colm McCarthy's and John Fitzgerald's answer will be!

Mountainsandh · 28-01-2014 11:38PM

We all know what to expect I think.
This will carry them through past the elections, and in a double move, distract from the fact that the amplitude of the project is wrong.

Again if they decided to clearly state 2 project options, one with export factured in, and one without export demands, and then review undergrounding, this would be more accurate and relevant.

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2014 02:10AM

Mr Rabbitte on the telly today going on about one of the Nordic counterparts commenting on Undergrounding. His counterpart said along the lines of “we did not do that as it was to expensive in the long run”. Trying to find the fault and so on Think it was that Primetime show. He also made comments on distance to the pylons that only 2 houses on the routs were at 50 meters and 60 odd at 200 so I don't know were all the comments the other side came out with about loads of houses having them next to them came from. Was mentioning compo also...

Heroditas · 29-01-2014 10:12AM

I was reading in the paper today that 35,000 responses were received for the Eirgrid consultation.
Thirty five-frikkin-thousand!!! :eek:

Compare and contrast that to the number of responses to the smart metering consultations to date and an awful lot more people will be affected by that and the costs associated with it.

Greensleeves · 29-01-2014 11:13AM

Heroditas wrote: »

I can tell you straight away what Colm McCarthy's and John Fitzgerald's answer will be!

Colm McCarthy seems to spend a lot of time dissing the pylon/wind for export thing; is this an impartial economic crusade or does he have some sort of agenda? (I'm not suggesting that he has an agenda... just curious.)

This paragraph from the Independent a few days ago seems to sum up his position:

"If energy infrastructure projects make economic sense, the political system must arbitrate the health, safety and environmental concerns that will inevitably, and quite properly, be raised. It is sometimes tempting to regard the objectors as locally oriented nimbies seeking to blackmail politicians who are pursuing necessary national priorities. Indeed this is hinted at in the government line on pylons and wind-farms, which takes it as read that the various projects are necessary to meet the requirements of development. But if the economic justification for the projects is flimsy, the balance of the argument is altered. In Ireland it has not been demonstrated that the continuing push for ever-greater reliance on intermittent wind-generated electricity makes economic sense, nor is it clear that wind is the least-cost path to reducing greenhouse gas emissions."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-alone-cant-save-the-worlds-climate-29950910.html

conorhal · 29-01-2014 11:53AM

Heroditas wrote: »

I was reading in the paper today that 35,000 responses were received for the Eirgrid consultation.
Thirty five-frikkin-thousand!!! :eek:

Compare and contrast that to the number of responses to the smart metering consultations to date and an awful lot more people will be affected by that and the costs associated with it.

Isn't it amazing how quickly the prospect of tens of thousands of protest votes suddenly softened the government's cough. Now it seems that the concerns of those who objected are worth a listen?

What's really infuriating about this government is the fact that they are happy to waste (coincidentally) 2bn on surplus employees over at Irish water, but not prepared to spend that kind of money in a manner that materially benefits people.
What's worst about this government however is the fact that this cost is one that won't be born by the multinational we're building this to facilitate. They should be told that, if you want to litter the countryside with wind turbines to power the UK then you can bloody well pick up the cost of putting this line underground. Why are taxpayers expected to bend over and carry the cost of both building infrastructure and paying carbon taxes to subsidise wind energy and ruining our envournment all so a few greedy farmers and our government can pander to corporate interests.

Heroditas · 29-01-2014 07:25PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Colm McCarthy seems to spend a lot of time dissing the pylon/wind for export thing; is this an impartial economic crusade or does he have some sort of agenda? (I'm not suggesting that he has an agenda... just curious.)

This paragraph from the Independent a few days ago seems to sum up his position:

"If energy infrastructure projects make economic sense, the political system must arbitrate the health, safety and environmental concerns that will inevitably, and quite properly, be raised. It is sometimes tempting to regard the objectors as locally oriented nimbies seeking to blackmail politicians who are pursuing necessary national priorities. Indeed this is hinted at in the government line on pylons and wind-farms, which takes it as read that the various projects are necessary to meet the requirements of development. But if the economic justification for the projects is flimsy, the balance of the argument is altered. In Ireland it has not been demonstrated that the continuing push for ever-greater reliance on intermittent wind-generated electricity makes economic sense, nor is it clear that wind is the least-cost path to reducing greenhouse gas emissions."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-alone-cant-save-the-worlds-climate-29950910.html

It is an impartial economic crusade.
I know that from people who have discussed matters such as this with him on a professional level.

Mountainsandh · 29-01-2014 08:13PM

It shows some perspective from Irish affairs.
Not easy to take a step back and look at the situation objectively, rather than be brainwashed into the "making money" mindset.

I suspect too that the government relish the prospect of "showing off" to the rest of Europe. This seems to power a few crusades, like the smoking ban before anyone else in Europe.

That's not reprehensible in itself, it can be a great driving force, but seems to blur the judgement of a few too.

Heroditas · 29-01-2014 09:02PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It shows some perspective from Irish affairs.
Not easy to take a step back and look at the situation objectively, rather than be brainwashed into the "making money" mindset.

I suspect too that the government relish the prospect of "showing off" to the rest of Europe. This seems to power a few crusades, like the smoking ban before anyone else in Europe.

That's not reprehensible in itself, it can be a great driving force, but seems to blur the judgement of a few too.

It's also a fear of the consequences if Ireland fails to adhere to the targets set by Europe.
The fear is that if pan-European targets aren't hit, it's the small countries who will bear the brunt of any penal instruments while the bigger nations just fob it off.

Greensleeves · 29-01-2014 09:03PM

It gets madder by the minute...

€30,000 payouts for people living near power lines

* Higher energy bills to pay for compensation fund
* Expert group to examine underground option

HUNDREDS of families will be paid up to €30,000 each for living close to controversial high-voltage power lines.

But electricity customers will be hit in their pockets as the estimated €50m cost of the compensation fund will be added to domestic and business bills.

National grid operator EirGrid insisted it was not an attempt to buy off local communities.

However, it is sure to divide homeowners who are bitterly opposed to 45-metre pylons being built to carry high-voltage lines as part of a €3.2bn grid upgrade.

Full story...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/30000-payouts-for-people-living-near-power-lines-29959488.html

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2014 09:12PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

It gets madder by the minute...

€30,000 payouts for people living near power lines

* Higher energy bills to pay for compensation fund
* Expert group to examine underground option

HUNDREDS of families will be paid up to €30,000 each for living close to controversial high-voltage power lines.

But electricity customers will be hit in their pockets as the estimated €50m cost of the compensation fund will be added to domestic and business bills.

National grid operator EirGrid insisted it was not an attempt to buy off local communities.

However, it is sure to divide homeowners who are bitterly opposed to 45-metre pylons being built to carry high-voltage lines as part of a €3.2bn grid upgrade.

Full story...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/30000-payouts-for-people-living-near-power-lines-29959488.html

what's the criteria though ... Primetime interview with Mr Rabbitte he said there were only 2 people at 50 meters and about 60 at about 200 meters on all the routes. So is it that you can see them or fear of Property devaluation.

Birdnuts · 29-01-2014 09:22PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

It gets madder by the minute...

€30,000 payouts for people living near power lines

* Higher energy bills to pay for compensation fund
* Expert group to examine underground option

HUNDREDS of families will be paid up to €30,000 each for living close to controversial high-voltage power lines.

But electricity customers will be hit in their pockets as the estimated €50m cost of the compensation fund will be added to domestic and business bills.

National grid operator EirGrid insisted it was not an attempt to buy off local communities.

However, it is sure to divide homeowners who are bitterly opposed to 45-metre pylons being built to carry high-voltage lines as part of a €3.2bn grid upgrade.

Full story...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/30000-payouts-for-people-living-near-power-lines-29959488.html

Its beyond a joke now - using bill payer money to try and buy off objectors. What we need is a proper study of Irelands energy policy - the current wind based strategy has proved an expensive failure in other countries and needs to be stopped ASAP before we go on this crazy pylon/wind farm spree.

Mountainsandh · 29-01-2014 09:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

what's the criteria though ... Primetime interview with Mr Rabbitte he said there were only 2 people at 50 meters and about 60 at about 200 meters on all the routes. So is it that you can see them or fear of Property devaluation.

But is that only the new route ?
What's the situation for those who already have a pylon at 50m (or possibly less, since these pylons were possibly placed there in the 60s/70s/80s when no such guidelines might have been implemented ?
These people might see their pylons suddenly augmenting like a Mario Mushroom, and the distance unchanged ? Or is the plan to displace these pylons or clear said houses ?

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2014 09:47PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But is that only the new route ?
What's the situation for those who already have a pylon at 50m (or possibly less, since these pylons were possibly placed there in the 60s/70s/80s when no such guidelines might have been implemented ?
These people might see their pylons suddenly augmenting like a Mario Mushroom, and the distance unchanged ? Or is the plan to displace these pylons or clear said houses ?

That's why I'm asking you cant just hand money to people in the country now and not compensate other groups seems a tad unfair but I doubt you will hear that from the other side... Or is it a case of who shouts loudest ? Closer to major urban areas the more people live next/near to pylons.

Mountainsandh · 29-01-2014 10:04PM

Well I'd say you couldn't retrospectively pay compensation, but if the pylons go from 20 m to 45 m, then anyone, rural and urban, should be entitled to something, maybe not 30k since they already had something next to them.

I'm not a big fan of compensation.

I know in my case, I would much prefer to simply have the pylon further away, or simply not there.

Guy:Incognito · 29-01-2014 10:04PM

Whats with All the people with health concerns about having a pylon 45 metres up and maybe 100 metres away but suddenly think having them a few feet underground ( and thus much closer) will be grand?

Can I have all the pylons near where I live in Dublin taken down now or is it just the country folk that don't have to have them?

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2014 10:14PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Whats with All the people with health concerns about having a pylon 45 metres up and maybe 100 metres away but suddenly think having them a few feet underground ( and thus much closer) will be grand?

Can I have all the pylons near where I live in Dublin taken down now or is it just the country folk that don't have to have them?

Have pointed this out. You would have to I don't know encase them in substantial faraday cages/shields. And digging that up and trying to find faults on that would be uber expensive I'm guessing

Mountainsandh · 29-01-2014 10:55PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Whats with All the people with health concerns about having a pylon 45 metres up and maybe 100 metres away but suddenly think having them a few feet underground ( and thus much closer) will be grand?

Can I have all the pylons near where I live in Dublin taken down now or is it just the country folk that don't have to have them?

Not just health concerns, devaluation, and visual impact, as stated repeatedly in the thread.

Mountainsandh · 29-01-2014 11:04PM

Heroditas wrote: »

It's also a fear of the consequences if Ireland fails to adhere to the targets set by Europe.
The fear is that if pan-European targets aren't hit, it's the small countries who will bear the brunt of any penal instruments while the bigger nations just fob it off.

Thing is, the target for Ireland from the European Commission was only 20% renewable energy use, while like CM stated, the Irish policy is to reach 40% (or was it 44% ?) renewable energy part of all energy used. (add to that infrastructure needed for export !)

I was just reading about this guy who wrote a book in 2012 I think, and who for his part was suggesting that really, there should be a cap on the amount of renewable energy development, since anyway ambitious targets in Europe et al cannot possibly be reached. He's not a scientist, but a mathematician I think, and he simply analyses various statistics and produces numbers as to what is possible, and what not.
I only skimmed on a few points, but one of them is that fossil fuel energy production plants should be forced to have C02 collection equipment fitted (better one if they already have similar equipment), and that really, stocking and catching C02 would be a more plausible option.
The book http://www.withouthotair.com/ can be perused and downloaded for free there.

darkpagandeath · 30-01-2014 02:52PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Thing is, the target for Ireland from the European Commission was only 20% renewable energy use, while like CM stated, the Irish policy is to reach 40% (or was it 44% ?) renewable energy part of all energy used. (add to that infrastructure needed for export !)

I was just reading about this guy who wrote a book in 2012 I think, and who for his part was suggesting that really, there should be a cap on the amount of renewable energy development, since anyway ambitious targets in Europe et al cannot possibly be reached. He's not a scientist, but a mathematician I think, and he simply analyses various statistics and produces numbers as to what is possible, and what not.
I only skimmed on a few points, but one of them is that fossil fuel energy production plants should be forced to have C02 collection equipment fitted (better one if they already have similar equipment), and that really, stocking and catching C02 would be a more plausible option.
The book http://www.withouthotair.com/ can be perused and downloaded for free there.

And when it runs out ?

Mountainsandh · 30-01-2014 03:31PM

I haven't looked at his version of what you do when it runs out, I think he suggests that there is actually plenty, and he doesn't suggest to get rid of renewables altogether anyway.

I think, like myself, he thinks a mix of lots of different solutions is more realistic than one big drastic change focusing on one type of renewables or two.

I think personnally that there is still a lot to research, discover, and implement, on how to waste less energy, produce less C02, and a lot of potentially significant sources of renewables that need to be given a chance to come to fruition.
I'm no engineer, and have only read a few bits here and there, and seen a few vids on youtube of prototypes...
I can only imagine that young and more experienced engineering minds of Ireland could come up with a few brilliant ideas, with a research budget.

Scale down the current Gridlink project to domestic needs only, use the money saved to sponsor Irish research...

I work in a place frequented by 150 to 200 people every day, with normal hot water needs for the maintenance and use of such a place. Would one or two solar panels supply that hot water with a reduced footprint ? (I kinda know the answer, since I have solar tubes and they work brilliant here in South East anyway)
We don't have them, we use fuel or gaz.

Would one or 2 solar panels/tubes supply hot water for all similar places in the South East, thereby reducing C02 for 10, 20, 30 places frequented by 200 people a day ? Is that insignificant ?

How many such small measures can make a difference in Ireland, rather than rushing head first into wind export to gain C02 brownie points, with the extra infrastructure that entails.

You know the way rapeseed power is not completely up to scratch... well in France, a good few smaller towns are still experimenting and benefiting by having their city buses running on rapeseed. Great boost for local farmers too. If that can be done in France, could that be done in Ireland ?

How about car pooling corridors like in the US ? Would that help at least some bit to reduce the amount of cars on the approach to Dublin ?

Lots of things that haven't been tried, and that I'm sure CM will have a lot of very negative assessments to make of.

edit : this near Paris, rapeseed and recycled sunflower cooking oils http://www.ina.fr/video/CAB96006576

Heroditas · 30-01-2014 07:32PM

You'd need more than a couple of solar panels to supply hot water for 150-200 people.
You'd need a substantial array that would cost quite a bit.

Mountainsandh · 30-01-2014 07:44PM

it's not a swimming pool or living quarters, one 300l tank would probably be well enough for hand washing or hand rinsing the odd cup here and there, plus the hot water needed by the cleaning staff.

I have 2 panels and a 300l tank, that's loads.

Add on another panel maybe, to quicken things up a bit.

See, that's a major problem here in Ireland. Whatever project is inflated to a ridiculous level.
It's perfectly OK to have smaller scale projects. There would be no harm in installing 2 panels to start with, then adding 2 the year after if they proved insufficient.

I remember when I moved to Ireland for good in 1997, visiting people's houses, and being shocked at the sheer size of people's kitchens in new builds, or when people were just after renovating/adding extensions. We're talking US type football pitched sized kitchens, that end up deserted most of the time because the living room is more intimate for the cuppa. It's good to keep a sense of scale, and smaller scale is not something to fear or despise.

Heroditas · 30-01-2014 10:57PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

it's not a swimming pool or living quarters, one 300l tank would probably be well enough for hand washing or hand rinsing the odd cup here and there, plus the hot water needed by the cleaning staff.

I have 2 panels and a 300l tank, that's loads.

Add on another panel maybe, to quicken things up a bit.

See, that's a major problem here in Ireland. Whatever project is inflated to a ridiculous level.
It's perfectly OK to have smaller scale projects. There would be no harm in installing 2 panels to start with, then adding 2 the year after if they proved insufficient.

I remember when I moved to Ireland for good in 1997, visiting people's houses, and being shocked at the sheer size of people's kitchens in new builds, or when people were just after renovating/adding extensions. We're talking US type football pitched sized kitchens, that end up deserted most of the time because the living room is more intimate for the cuppa. It's good to keep a sense of scale, and smaller scale is not something to fear or despise.

A standard domestic hot water cylinder is 120L and you reckon one just over twice that size will suffice for 150-200 people? That is utterly ridiculous.
You would need multiples of a tank that size.

Pylons

Comments