Holocaust Memorial comments

WhatNowForUs? · 26-01-2014 11:52PM

Wibbs wrote: »

This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.

*before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.

BillyMitchel · 26-01-2014 11:56PM

biko wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

Is that not the Greek party that's been outlawed after a member murdered another party member?

Capt'n Midnight · 26-01-2014 11:58PM

Reekwind wrote: »

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

The real horror was the ruthless efficiency.

At an extermination camp, the men would be in the showers in as little as eight minutes after the train arrived.

Chełmno seven survivors out of 152,000
Belzec two out of 430,000
Treblinka II 70 out of 875,000 (uprising)
Maly Trostenets No Survivors out of 165,000
Sobibor 59 out of 200,000 (and 50 of those were part of a mass break out)

downonthefarm · 26-01-2014 11:59PM

Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals

Wibbs · 27-01-2014 12:01AM

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.

They weren't the only government who did, not by a long shot. Vanishingly few governments didn't restrict Jewish immigration into their countries at that time of need. Including the US and UK. In many if not most cases it was down to brave local individual officials that stamped travel papers to get people out, often to much hassle from the top down. Jews were a hot potato that very few jurisdictions wanted anything to do with.

wolfpawnat · 27-01-2014 12:03AM

I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.

Wibbs · 27-01-2014 12:08AM

downonthefarm wrote: »

Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals

There were already "local" Dubliner Jews. They had gotten on with the "locals" from way back. I grew up on the South Circular Road and had a good few childhood mates who were Jews. And that boiled down in the kid mind to "poor buggers can't eat sausages, but lucky buggers don't have to go to mass". Quite a few were gingers too(which in fairness garnered some slagging

), which may suggest "getting on with the locals" had more of a "how you dooooin" vibe.

Actually quite the number of Jewish folks out there have red hair, Woody Allen is a ginge, so it seems a Murphy/O'Whatever may have been a bit of a catch back in the day...

Royal Legend · 27-01-2014 12:13AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.

Thank you. I did not articulate my point as well as you.

That the man acts arrogant and superior does not help him.

biko · 27-01-2014 01:37AM

Raelyn Mammoth Raid wrote: »

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

Well the text goes:

He said that the crisis had revitalised pre-existing parties of the extreme right whose anti-Semitic and racist rhetoric is both corrosive and dangerous.
...
Minister Shatter cited Golden Dawn in Greece, Jobbik in Hungary, the National Front in France.
The other organisations he expressed concern over are Ataka and the Bulgarian National Party in Bulgaria, and the British National Party and UKIP in Britain.

I'd say EU with its politics has caused these parties to blossom (in part). Not everyone still thinks a European federation, run from Brussels, is the way to go.

Ireland has suffered more than most because of the bankers failure, you don't see us attacking jews (unless there is some loose connection with Israel at play).

biko · 27-01-2014 01:53AM

To touch upon the Holocaust.
Many Jews escaped the nazis and found safety in Malmo, Sweden.
These Jews, now old, are leaving since the rise of MENA immigration has meant anti-Semitic crime has risen and the left-wing mayor sits on his hands. We see the same pattern in France.
Ostensibly because of the Israel-Palestinian conflict somehow, but it's really just pure religious hatred and racism.
I think it's good that we remember the history and the crimes against jews by nazis but that doesn't mean that the threat against jews hasn't a new/old dimension now.

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