Holocaust Memorial comments

Royal Legend

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

DamagedTrax

might be better off worrying about his own party and the problems that they're creating.

Reekwind

What's controversial about the sentiments expressed in that link? If ever there was a day to be wary of the rise of the extreme right in Europe it's Holocaust Memorial Day

eviltwin

Don't see anything objectionable in there at all OP

wretcheddomain

OP you haven't cited one reason as to why it would be considered over the mark - you've simply just asked the question without any form of justification.

Phill Ewinn

Alan Shatner. Coma boy. I couldn't listen to him.

whupdedo

I can't see anything to suggest he overstepped any mark, of course he should be allowed to express whatever opinion he feels he is entitled to.

downonthefarm

Can't see anything bad here.
Somebody should have told him though that this holocaust was a bit a bit over hyped though

Nodin

Royal Legend wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

No as - shock horror - the rise of that kind of thing affects all of us, and the persecution of any and all minorities is to be condemned.

WhatNowForUs?

Not a problem with what he has said but I'd like if he had a look at himself and readjusted certain aspects of how he goes about his business.

DamagedTrax

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Not a problem with what he has said but I'd like if he had a look at himself and readjusted certain aspects of how he goes about his business.

too much porno writing, not enough ministering.

mosstin

downonthefarm wrote: »

Can't see anything bad here.
Somebody should have told him though that this holocaust was a bit a bit over hyped though

What?

Royal Legend

The reason I raised it is that Shatter makes comments every few months in relation to Israel or related topics, from in my view a biased opinion. My question is, as Minister of Justice, should he not be impartial?

From the other side, you do not see any ministers shouting about Catholic policies as it is seen as biased (or not politically correct). Apologies if I am not explaining myself very well.

By the way, I find right wing neo Nazi politics as abhorrent and I have witnessed it first hand many years ago. The Right wing will always gain momentum in depressed times as they play to the lowest common denominator.

DJango brekfast roll

John McClane:
[listening on the radio] What the ****?

Karl: [mouthing silently] Golden Dawn?

Hans: [covers the radio] I read about them in Time magazine...

downonthefarm

6million .how is that even possible
I feel this was just a propaganda stunt

Nodin

Royal Legend wrote: »

The reason I raised it is that Shatter makes comments every few months in relation to Israel or related topics, from in my view a biased opinion. My question is, as Minister of Justice, should he not be impartial?
.

You've a few examples to hand?

Royal Legend

Nodin wrote: »

You've a few examples to hand?

none to hand, but I have listened to him previously making comments about Israel and the Middle East, which at the time I found inappropriate for a Minister of Justice, as he seemed to be imparting his own personal views.

Beano

downonthefarm wrote: »

6million .how is that even possible
I feel this was just a propaganda stunt

very poor attempt at trolling

tayto lover

I never heard him complaining when the poor old Palestinians were being bombed by his friends.

Reekwind

downonthefarm wrote: »

6million .how is that even possible
I feel this was just a propaganda stunt

And there's the first of the deniers to emerge

Royal Legend wrote: »

The reason I raised it is that Shatter makes comments every few months in relation to Israel or related topics, from in my view a biased opinion. My question is, as Minister of Justice, should he not be impartial?

How are his comments in that link biased? Would you like him to bemoan the rise of neo-nazis, mourn the millions killed by them in the past and then call for a return to the 1967 borders? Because that would be unbelievably crass

As tayto lover has just proven

Nodin

Royal Legend wrote: »

none to hand, but I have listened to him previously making comments about Israel and the Middle East, which at the time I found inappropriate for a Minister of Justice, as he seemed to be imparting his own personal views.

So he might have said something once...great stuff.


He's entitled to his own views, all ministers blurt out something from time to time. Why he should be singled out and handed a memo saying' you're jewish so shush' is rather beyond me.

Jonny7

downonthefarm wrote: »

6million .how is that even possible
I feel this was just a propaganda stunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXMcbhn6Np0

WE GOT ONE!!

DamagedTrax

Beano wrote: »

very poor attempt at trolling

i personally dont deny it happened but from what ive read about it, the numbers as we've been told just dont add up.

in 39, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 jewish people in the world. after the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 jewish people.

thats just not possible given the numbers we have always been told.

but YMMV. they arent my numbers!

Royal Legend

Nodin wrote: »

So he might have said something once...great stuff.


He's entitled to his own views, all ministers blurt out something from time to time. Why he should be singled out and handed a memo saying' you're jewish so shush' is rather beyond me.

Maybe the same reason when a Gay person makes a comment on National Television last week that was censored?

Nodin

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i personally dont deny it happened but the numbers as we've been told just dont add up.

in 39, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 jewish people in the world. after the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 jewish people.

thats just not possible given the numbers we have always been told.

Yes, you do deny it. You're presuming those two figures are correct, btw.

Nodin

Royal Legend wrote: »

Maybe the same reason when a Gay person makes a comment on National Television last week that was censored?

....grasping at straws there.

Royal Legend

I doubt very much someone got away with exaggerating 6 million deaths, so can we leave that discussion to some other thread please.

Annasopra

Royal Legend wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

Absolutely not. He was dead right. The rise of the extreme right is something that Europe should fear.

Reekwind

Nodin wrote: »

Why he should be singled out and handed a memo saying' you're jewish so shush' is rather beyond me.

Ah, I'd actually forgotten that. Minister, with history of being a Jew, makes completely inoffensive and unremarkable comments about rise of extreme right on Holocaust Memorial Day. Some bright spark on Boards picks him up for "overstepping the mark". Then the Holocaust deniers come out to play

Pattern, anyone?

DamagedTrax wrote:

in 39, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 jewish people in the world. after the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 jewish people.

thats just not possible given the numbers we have always been told.

So either the Holocaust didn't happen or your numbers are wrong. I wonder which it could be...

Incidentally, a real pet peeve of mine is people who say 'I don't deny that the Holocaust happened but because of X I don't see how it could have happened'

4zn76tysfajdxp

mango salsa wrote: »

Absolutely not. He was dead right. The rise of the extreme right is something that Europe should fear.

Yeah but Shatter's a jew and he may have mentioned Israel before at some unspecified time in the past, maybe. He's obviously a maniac.

DamagedTrax

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, you do deny it. You're presuming those two figures are correct, btw.

i dont deny it and i said they werent my figures. wanna try again?

K-9

Royal Legend wrote: »

The reason I raised it is that Shatter makes comments every few months in relation to Israel or related topics, from in my view a biased opinion. My question is, as Minister of Justice, should he not be impartial?

From the other side, you do not see any ministers shouting about Catholic policies as it is seen as biased (or not politically correct). Apologies if I am not explaining myself very well.

By the way, I find right wing neo Nazi politics as abhorrent and I have witnessed it first hand many years ago. The Right wing will always gain momentum in depressed times as they play to the lowest common denominator.

I suppose it could be argued the rise of far right groups isn't usually great for law and order, so it's within a Justice ministers remit. Don't really see the issue.

If it was on something about Israel and the Middle East, it would usually be in a personal capacity. Ministers are entitled to have personal beliefs, often makes for the best political humour when they cross the line or deviate from the party spiel.

keeponhurling

I wonder what is Shatter's opinion on the Blueshirts, wonder is it consistent

Nodin

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i dont deny it and i said they werent my figures. wanna try again?

You do, it's irrelevant and no. .

DamagedTrax

Nodin wrote: »

You do, it's irrelevant and no. .

what a comeback. you're a winner.

Fratton Fred

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i personally dont deny it happened but from what ive read about it, the numbers as we've been told just dont add up.

in 39, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 jewish people in the world. after the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 jewish people.

thats just not possible given the numbers we have always been told.

but YMMV. they arent my numbers!

It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish".

My sister in law's family came to London from eastern Europe in 1938 and changed their name to Conner and put Catholic on their.immigration forms. Even though they made it to the UK they didn't feel safe.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish".

My sister in law's family came to London from eastern Europe in 1938 and changed their name to Conner and put Catholic on their.immigration forms. Even though they made it to the UK they didn't feel safe.

Maybe they shudda put Protestant on their form then?





/gets coat

Frank Lee Midere

Royal Legend wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

Well I've just read that link. My answer is no. Here's a question - were he not Jewish and mentioned on holocaust Memorial Day that the rise of right wing groups were a cause of concern - would we have this thread?

Reekwind

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish"

More to the point, the figures are nonsense. There were not 18M Jews worldwide in 1945, simple as. Hells, most estimates have the world Jewish population today at barely 14M

Royal Legend

K-9 wrote: »

I suppose it could be argued the rise of far right groups isn't usually great for law and order, so it's within a Justice ministers remit. Don't really see the issue.

If it was on something about Israel and the Middle East, it would usually be in a personal capacity. Ministers are entitled to have personal beliefs, often makes for the best political humour when they cross the line or deviate from the party spiel.

Yes, but when he makes a personal comment, he is still the MOJ so his comment is seen imo as political or representing Irelands position.
My post is in relation to Minister Shatter using his position as a forum for his own beliefs.

I would also prefer if people refrain from turning the discussion into a numbers game. I have no doubt that 6m people died at the hands of the Nazi's, its a proven fact and there are only one set of people who try to dispute it.

humanji

There's a perfectly functional Conspiracy Theories forum if people feel the need to use it. For everyone else, stick to the topic.

Royal Legend

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well I've just read that link. My answer is no. Here's a question - were he not Jewish and mentioned on holocaust Memorial Day that the rise of right wing groups were a cause of concern - would we have this thread?

Honest answer is no.

tayto lover

Horrible atrocities were carried out against the Jews. Nobody wants to see that again and Shatter is correct to say it.
I can never understand though how the Israeli's can treat the Palestinians the way they do after the suffering the Jews endured.

Frank Lee Midere

Royal Legend wrote: »

Yes, but when he makes a personal comment, he is still the MOJ so his comment is seen imo as political or representing Irelands position.
My post is in relation to Minister Shatter using his position as a forum for his own beliefs.

I would also prefer if people refrain from turning the discussion into a numbers game. I have no doubt that 6m people died at the hands of the Nazi's, its a proven fact and there are only one set of people who try to dispute it.

What would you have the Irish MOJ say on holocaust Memorial Day? What was specifically "Jewish" in his condemnation of the far right?

CrabRevolution

One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.

If you ever see some speculation of "what if Hitler did x, then y wouldnt have happened, preventing z" etc., the final consequence is almost always '"and therefore the holocaust wouldnt have happened", as though the other 60 million+ lives lost in the war werent the worst of it.

I in no way doubt the extent or absolute inhumanity of the acts the 3rd Reich committed, and find Holocaust denial stupid at best, and dangerous at worst. Plus I've no problem with commemorating and remembering the victims. But I am not a fan of the way the Holocaust dead are elevated above the many many millions of others who died in that war.

biko

He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.

4zn76tysfajdxp

biko wrote: »

He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

Nodin

Raelyn Mammoth Raid wrote: »

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

Jobbik are. The French lot were in the past, but are toning it down in the hope of getting Jewish votes with an anti-muslim line.

Reekwind

Royal Legend wrote: »

Honest answer is no.

But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?

CrabRevolution wrote:

One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.

It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

biko

I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

expectationlost

shatter defending our facilitation of kidnapping, torture, and invasion this week in the dail