Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

Santa Cruz · 24-01-2014 05:11PM

bella_doyle wrote: »

its not against the law to say nothing in a garda interview room , its wise to do so

wait til court to tell your story

Ridiculous advice. If you were in a position to exonerate yourself from a crime you would prefer to be charged and appear in court rather than have your evidence examined promptly and you released.

adrag · 24-01-2014 09:01PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Ridiculous advice. If you were in a position to exonerate yourself from a crime you would prefer to be charged and appear in court rather than have your evidence examined promptly and you released.

Obviously you were never in our wonderful system

My name is URL · 24-01-2014 10:09PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Ridiculous advice. If you were in a position to exonerate yourself from a crime you would prefer to be charged and appear in court rather than have your evidence examined promptly and you released.

What's your opinion on the whole issue of quashing penalty points for 'connected' people?

Birroc · 24-01-2014 11:02PM

I have been saying the Gardaí are a law unto themselves for years. The commissioner sounds like an absolute a-hole.
I am not sure how you fix it now but the Gardaí will only get worse if the whistleblowers are punished for highlighting wrongs.

adrag · 24-01-2014 11:17PM

The way the commisioner is treating the whistleblowers is similar to the way gangs treat people in estates that speak up about anti social behaviour ie threaths, bullying, austracised by peers in the force etc.One whistleblower even had a dead rat nailed to his door, maybe this is the reason why u only have 2 gaurds coming forward mr commissioner ..another tool borrowed from criminal gangs is to label a person a rat ironic really

steddyeddy · 24-01-2014 11:20PM

Did RTE not even cover this?

Walt Jabsco · 24-01-2014 11:36PM

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/539227/290532.jpg

adrag · 24-01-2014 11:40PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Did RTE not even cover this?

Bits and pieces on main news, doconone have done a documentary about it, its on iplayer dont know exact www. adress but im sure it wouldn't be hard to find.

adrag · 25-01-2014 12:14AM

The way the commisioner is treating the whistleblowers is similar to the way gangs treat people in estates that speak up about anti social behaviour ie threaths, bullying, austracised by peers in the force etc.One whistleblower even had a deas rat nailed to his door, maybe this is the reason why u only have 2 gaurds coming forward mr commissioner

brooke 2 · 25-01-2014 01:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Did RTE not even cover this?

It was discussed on Sean O'Rourke's programme and also on Joe Duffy.
You can imagine on which side both of them were!

Sean O'Rourke was 'disgusting'!! He made no secret of his support for
Callinan. He intimated that whistleblowers were contrary and disgruntled.
That sleeveen Pat Leahy seemed to go along with this view. The only person
on the panel who supported the PAC was Jill Kirby and she was very

brooke 2 · 25-01-2014 01:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Did RTE not even cover this?

It was discussed on Sean O'Rourke's programme and also on Joe Duffy.
You can imagine on which side both of them were!

Sean O'Rourke was 'disgusting'!! He made no secret of his support for
Callinan. He intimated that whistleblowers were contrary and disgruntled.
That sleeveen Pat Leahy seemed to go along with this view. The only person
on the panel who supported the PAC was Jill Kirby and she was very
quickly stopped in her tracks!

Joe's first caller was a person who blew the whistle on Lea's Cross. I was
appalled at the aggression which Joe directed towards him when he was
making the very valid point that isolation is a form of bullying. His next
caller was a highly incensed teacher who did not seem to understand the
difference between a garda using his/her discretion when stopping a driver
for an offence and a person going to a senior member of the force to have
points already received removed from the system!! She was allowed to rant
uninterrupted by Joe for several minutes!!!!

Just wondering if either of them was the RTE personality who had points
removed?:(

25-01-2014 01:41PM

The police only police with the consent of the people, so how do you design a system that allows some flexibility while not being open to abuse?.

Just because something is wrong that does not always make it corruption.

Have do make sure someone is not a cranky contrary person and that they have a genuine complaint.

I have no gra for the Gaurds, I have had both good and not so good experience's with then, I expect as a member of the public that they do there job in a formal professional way. The Gaurds being the type of organisation it is need to be a disciplined organisation.

I think a large part of the problem is the type of people they recruit.

adrag · 25-01-2014 01:59PM

mariaalice wrote: »

The police only police with the consent of the people, so how do you design a system that allows some flexibility while not being open to abuse?.

Just because something is wrong that does not always make it corruption.

Have do make sure someone is not a cranky contrary person and that they have a genuine complaint.

I have no gra for the Gaurds, I have had both good and not so good experience's with then, I expect as a member of the public that they do there job in a formal professional way. The Gaurds being the type of organisation it is need to be a disciplined organisation.

I think a large part of the problem is the type of people they recruit.

Of course it needs to be disciplined but that's the problem it isnt, if a garda sees a colleague assulting someone how many would report it.Tyey resisted any attempt for an ombudsman had to be forced,and still dont cooperate with them 100%

oceanman · 25-01-2014 04:16PM

why is the garda ombudsman not investigating this...surely that's why they were set up in the first place..to tackle corruption and wrongdoing in the force!...

Potential-Monke · 25-01-2014 04:54PM

adrag wrote: »

...still dont cooperate with them 100%

Can i ask you a question? Would you be all in support of an organisation who brings members to court without evidence, and then, once exonerated, still recommend internal discipline? The courts decide there was nowhere near enough evidence for a case to even be brought to the court, yes they still believe that there is enough to discipline members for the same incident? And, have those same members pay the legal bill to defend themselves from a case brought against them by the state for acting on behalf of the state? Link

Look, the Gardaí are in a very though situation when it comes to "whistleblowing". Especially in the case of this penalty points debacle. Gardaí have to be aware that everything they say or do has to be in line with not only the law, but the Data Protection Act and the Garda Code. In order for someone to go to the papers claiming that X member is corrupt, they need evidence, and that evidence (which, in the penalty points case) would make that member breach the Data Protection Act, passing information about certain individuals without that individuals consent.

Now, i'm not saying that it's ok to have members cancelling points, in fact i believe the opposite, once they're on, they're on. Tough teeties. But in order for someone to claim corruption, they need to know that Johnny X had received points for an offence, and by saying this you are in breach of the Data Protection Act.

Then, not only that, you have the Code, which seems to allow for Double Jeopardy. Cleared of any wrong doing in court, you can still be liable for discipline because of the Code.

Is it any wonder that some members might feel no allegiance to the Government or management when everything is stacked against them? And the only people who will stand beside them are they're frontline colleagues? Members of AGS don't even have a legal Union to help them, just an organisation (GRA) who have no real, legal powers? The constitution states that Employees have a right to join a union. Except the Gardaí.

Again, i'd just like to say that i'm not in favour of corruption within AGS, but there will always be corruption, in every walk of life. THe majority of it is so minor that it doesn't really warrant being called corruption - a Gardas discretion can be called corruption. But if people want absolutely no corruption then the discretion needs to go, and everyone would be arrested/fined for the most trivial of things. There's either no line, or a blurry one.

Santa Cruz · 25-01-2014 04:58PM

My name is URL wrote: »

What's your opinion on the whole issue of quashing penalty points for 'connected' people?

No one is above the law. There should be a very clear system of appeal in place to cater for incidents where drivers feel that they have a case for cancelling of penalty points perhaps supervised by an independent ombudsman type. I really don't accept that rushing home because the sink is overflowing and similar ****e reasons can justify excess speed and putting others at risk.
The politicians introduced this system and they knew what they were doing. Perhaps the Commissioner should reveal the number of representations from public representatives he has received supporting a persons request to cancel points

Santa Cruz · 25-01-2014 05:00PM

adrag wrote: »

Obviously you were never in our wonderful system

I know enough about it to firmly maintain that your advice is unwise

adrag · 25-01-2014 06:41PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I know enough about it to firmly maintain that your advice is unwise

I think you might be a little nieve, there are people above the law in this country and they are called ags, at least if you stay quite in the station, they cant twist wat u said

jonnny68 · 25-01-2014 06:50PM

These men who are what the media call 'whistleblowers' are to be commended for their actions.

I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg too, believe there's so much more corruption that we don't know about.

It'll all come out eventually.

_Kaiser_ · 25-01-2014 07:03PM

jonnny68 wrote: »

These men who are what the media call 'whistleblowers' are to be commended for their actions.

I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg too, believe there's so much more corruption that we don't know about.

It'll all come out eventually.

Not if people like these 2 Gardai are treated like traitors and troublemakers by their supposed colleagues and superiors, the media and those in power

brooke 2 · 25-01-2014 07:11PM

oceanman wrote: »

why is the garda ombudsman not investigating this...surely that's why they were set up in the first place..to tackle corruption and wrongdoing in the force!...

The gardaí are not allowed to make complaints to the Ombudsman!

Figure that out!!

adrag · 25-01-2014 07:58PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Can i ask you a question? Would you be all in support of an organisation who brings members to court without evidence, and then, once exonerated, still recommend internal discipline? The courts decide there was nowhere near enough evidence for a case to even be brought to the court, yes they still believe that there is enough to discipline members for the same incident? And, have those same members pay the legal bill to defend themselves from a case brought against them by the state for acting on behalf of the state? Link

Look, the Gardaí are in a very though situation when it comes to "whistleblowing". Especially in the case of this penalty points debacle. Gardaí have to be aware that everything they say or do has to be in line with not only the law, but the Data Protection Act and the Garda Code. In order for someone to go to the papers claiming that X member is corrupt, they need evidence, and that evidence (which, in the penalty points case) would make that member breach the Data Protection Act, passing information about certain individuals without that individuals consent.

Now, i'm not saying that it's ok to have members cancelling points, in fact i believe the opposite, once they're on, they're on. Tough teeties. But in order for someone to claim corruption, they need to know that Johnny X had received points for an offence, and by saying this you are in breach of the Data Protection Act.

Then, not only that, you have the Code, which seems to allow for Double Jeopardy. Cleared of any wrong doing in court, you can still be liable for discipline because of the Code.

Is it any wonder that some members might feel no allegiance to the Government or management when everything is stacked against them? And the only people who will stand beside them are they're frontline colleagues? Members of AGS don't even have a legal Union to help them, just an organisation (GRA) who have no real, legal powers? The constitution states that Employees have a right to join a union. Except the Gardaí.

Again, i'd just like to say that i'm not in favour of corruption within AGS, but there will always be corruption, in every walk of life. THe majority of it is so minor that it doesn't really warrant being called corruption - a Gardas discretion can be called corruption. But if people want absolutely no corruption then the discretion needs to go, and everyone would be arrested/fined for the most trivial of things. There's either no line, or a blurry one.

No but when there is evidence it would be nice to see it being investigated ie when speaking to his boss a gaurd had suspicions that another member was leakin info to the ira,his boss continued to read a report that he was reading as the gaurd was telling him about his suspicions, the boss finishes reading the report and his question to gaurd was"hows things in monaghan".It has since transpired that info from the same gaurd led to the murder of 2top members of RUC.this type of stuff is rampant in the garda, and people are too afraid to speak up and I don't blame them

TINA1984 · 25-01-2014 08:13PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Again, i'd just like to say that i'm not in favour of corruption within AGS, but there will always be corruption, in every walk of life. THe majority of it is so minor that it doesn't really warrant being called corruption - a Gardas discretion can be called corruption. But if people want absolutely no corruption then the discretion needs to go, and everyone would be arrested/fined for the most trivial of things. There's either no line, or a blurry one.

There's a massive difference between 'discretion' & 'corruption', as such they can't really be considered one and the same. If a Garda gets someone's penalty points rescinded because of genuine reasons - someone needs to get to hospital quickly etc. then that's fair enough. But anecdotally it appears that its common practice for Gardai to rescind penalty points for friends & family members, that's not discretion, that's corruption.

Potential-Monke · 25-01-2014 09:20PM

adrag wrote: »

No but when there is evidence it would be nice to see it being investigated ie when speaking to his boss a gaurd had suspicions that another member was leakin info to the ira,his boss continued to read a report that he was reading as the gaurd was telling him about his suspicions, the boss finishes reading the report and his question to gaurd was"hows things in monaghan".It has since transpired that info from the same gaurd led to the murder of 2top members of RUC.this type of stuff is rampant in the garda, and people are too afraid to speak up and I don't blame them

I will guarantee you, 100%, that "this stuff" is not rampant, as you put it. I'm not saying it doesn't go on (neither am i saying it does), but it is not rampant. The example you gave was a big example of curruption, but if such big examples were still going on we would hear a lot more about it. As it is, the biggest current example of corruption is what is being investigated right now, penalty points. While not to be excused, it's a far cry from the "rampant" example you gave.

TINA1984 wrote: »

There's a massive difference between 'discretion' & 'corruption', as such they can't really be considered one and the same. If a Garda gets someone's penalty points rescinded because of genuine reasons - someone needs to get to hospital quickly etc. then that's fair enough. But anecdotally it appears that its common practice for Gardai to rescind penalty points for friends & family members, that's not discretion, that's corruption.

As i said, it's either corruption or it's not. You can't have 1 rule for one, and 1 rule for another, regardless of circumstances. Good reason or not, getting points rescinded is corruption (as you put it). Discretion and corruption can be one in the same. Who are we to decide which is which? No discretion/corruption: you break the law, you get done, simple, no excuses. Some discretion/corruption: points get rescinded for "genuine" cases, not for others. I can't see why, if we want no corruption, we should allow some people off and not others. You have a medical emergency? Ring the Gardaí and look for an escort, i'm sure they'd be more than willing to help (resources allowing). You left the tap running and the house is flooding? Tough, not an excuse. Where's the line?

BanAllFirearms · 25-01-2014 09:38PM

Its clearly corruption if they quashed penalty points on friends or family members licenses .
They uphold the law but they are not above it if there is clear evidence that. this did indeed happen the gardai involved should be brought before the courts and charged with corruption

adrag · 25-01-2014 09:59PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I will guarantee you, 100%, that "this stuff" is not rampant, as you put it. I'm not saying it doesn't go on (neither am i saying it does), but it is not rampant. The example you gave was a big example of curruption, but if such big examples were still going on we would hear a lot more about it. As it is, the biggest current example of corruption is what is being investigated right now, penalty points. While not to be excused, it's a far cry from the "rampant" example you gave.

As i said, it's either corruption or it's not. You can't have 1 rule for one, and 1 rule for another, regardless of circumstances. Good reason or not, getting points rescinded is corruption (as you put it). Discretion and corruption can be one in the same. Who are we to decide which is which? No discretion/corruption: you break the law, you get done, simple, no excuses. Some discretion/corruption: points get rescinded for "genuine" cases, not for others. I can't see why, if we want no corruption, we should allow some people off and not others. You have a medical emergency? Ring the Gardaí and look for an escort, i'm sure they'd be more than willing to help (resources allowing). You left the tap running and the house is flooding? Tough, not an excuse. Where's the line?

The reason that we don't hear more stories is the fear factor created by the gardai, you only have to listen to the stories of the whistle blowers and the treatment they're receiving colleagues included, what chance do ordinary people have

downonthefarm · 26-01-2014 01:01PM

Fair play to the two lads for speaking up.the commissioner is a disgrace and his statement to the PAC is just as bad.

Potential-Monke · 26-01-2014 11:24PM

adrag wrote: »

The reason that we don't hear more stories is the fear factor created by the gardai, you only have to listen to the stories of the whistle blowers and the treatment they're receiving colleagues included, what chance do ordinary people have

I can unequivocally say it is not rampant, and i say that as a member. And i would not stand for the corruption you say is going on. The majority of members know not to put their colleagues in that situation, because they wouldn't like to be put in it themselves.

The current scandal goes above my pay grade (i wouldn't have the power to cancel anything on any system!), but i can say with pure honesty, i have never seen or heard of anyone i know within the organisation (of which i'm in for 8 years, and fairly senior in the scheme of things thanks to massive retirements) do anything which is currently being investigated, or any other type of corruption (that doesn't fall under the remit of discretion).

And even now, as an anonymous person on this forum, i have to be entirely sure that everything i type cannot land me in jail, because it's easy to trace someone from a forum, and Boards have a legal obligation to pass on my details to AGS (through the proper procedures and court documents), details which will easily identify me. So i'm not anonymous, and am held way more accountable than anyone else on this forum (unless they are also members) for what i type, even if it's just an opinion. And therein lies a crux, a person willing to explain the day to day activities and thinking of a member of AGS, but cannot do so for fear of losing my job, my house and my freedom.

And with that, i have to add anything i do say is an opinion, and not representative of any club and/or organisation.

Edit: Even now, going back over it, i had to take something out which, on re-reading, could have landed me in major trouble!

Femme_Fatale · 26-01-2014 11:30PM

I'd agree it's not likely to be "rampant". People say stuff like that without any proof because they want to sock it to "the man".

brooke 2 · 27-01-2014 01:26PM

There is a very interesting poll on Journal.ie at the moment, asking people
to vote as to whether or not the whistleblowers should appear before the PAC.

What is curious is that even though there are more 'no' votes than 'yes' ones,
the majority of the comments are in favour of the whistleblowers appearing
before the committee.

Surprising contradiction? Not really, I guess!!

Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

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