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Master of the UniverseJoin Date:Posts: 36854
But apart from control input, what more innovation can a console deliver in terms of hardware? VR, yes but they need to fit into a price point. Motion control has been done to death now & if I never had to pick up a Wii mote again it'd be too soon. All they're there to do is provide you with a gaming experience, & I'm not sure what's left to expand upon...headsets aside.
If anything, the One is at least trying something with the tv integration. Not my cup of tea at all, but it's expanding upon what consoles have been creeping towards for a while now with web players & apps etc.
The only innovation I'd like to see from the new generation, is gaming innovation/software...& it's way, way too early to snub them just yet imo
But where did I say I was just talking about hardware?
I'm talking about the whole package. So far, the XBox One and the PS4 to me are just the XBox 360 and PS3 rebranded.
Same controllers. 90% the same games. Same whole idea. It's seriously tiresome at this point and simply just not very interesting.
Not that the WiiU is appealing to me very much either for that matter to be honest. But at least Nintendo are trying to add something with the tablet controller.
TV integration really the greatest innovation they can come up with in the last 14 years since the 360 was released? Really?Sony and MS might not innovate as much as Nintendo (they have less experience in the gaming field and other business interests too) - but calling the content available on their systems "crap" is plain wrong.
I didn't say the content available was crap though. I said I agree with 'a large part of the statement' - most games I find on both systems are boring, repetitive - not 'crap', but not far off.
There are great games. But I haven't bought any of the new consoles now for the reasons Ciderdude mentioned in his comment, basically 'same thing, new box, fancier visuals' - eh, I'd rather keep my money thanks.
As far as experience, get out of it! :P Sony have been around in the gaming scene now since 1995 (and earlier than that from a development standpoint). That's plenty of time to figure the whole thing out. Hell, they were one of the first companies to really make it big with a disc based console - If that's not innovation I don't know what is.Also, some of the "innovation" from Nintendo I can certainly live without (maybe I'm in the minority);
- Wii: Motion controls can bugger off.
- 3DS: 3D that most folks don't use - either because a game doesn't utilise it, kills the battery, kills your eyes. How many games really benefit from the unique selling point of the machine?
- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.
Now the above isn't Ninty bashing - they made some of my favourite games and machines of all time - they're just not the be all and end all of gaming.
Hopefully they and Sony and MS will be around the gaming scene for a long time to come.
Motion controls had their moment, but it has passed. Wii Sports was great fun when it came out. People turn into anti motion control hipsters and bang on about how they're too cool for it. I was playing videogames with my parents and grandparents. That was an amazing experience I've never had before and for that alone, I'm glad motion controls existed.
The 3D on the 3DS, when done right, is stunning. It can add a whole new dimension to games. Sure, a lot of them are lazy, but some of them are excellent. It's definitely an innovation I'm glad to see Nintendo bring.
Just to finish off that rant (!), before someone says I'm 'getting old and jaded with videogames' - I'm really not. I play games now more than ever. Just the prospect of another generation of yet again, the same bloody thing with the odd sparse 'must play game' is driving me mental.
Maybe I was just spoiled growing up in an age where every new gen brought a huge leap, I dunno - am I just expecting too much?0 -
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Retr0gamer wrote: »I can't disagree with you more there. I think it's a wonderful innovation that just isn't get the use that it should. If you've played the multiplayer mode of ZombiU you'd see the potential in it. One player with the Pad is basically the dungeon master and puts down the obstacles in the other players path. If only other developers, especially Nintendo, could grasp the potential the pad can bring and really use it. The dungeon master use has just so much potential.
That's a fair point - I haven't played that game and my impression of the tablet is from maybe 30 minutes use and anything I've seen online. It was just the size of it and looking away from the main display that just didn't feel right. And for any multiplayer games - are the second/third players not missing out having to use a Wii controller? If I'm playing a console then I personally prefer what I'd call a normal controller, GC/360/PS whatever, something that feels comfortable and has just enough sticks/buttons to do the job.
johnny_ultimate wrote: »...Funnily enough, I'm not sure how long it's been since Nintendo released a truly groundbreaking game (Mario Galaxy maybe?): in many cases they've just been honing and remixing a core formula for decades now....
I would really love to see Nintendo create something entirely new: while I will never agree with the naysayers who dismiss Mario right out of hand, I do think they have a point when they wonder "where's the completely new Nintendo IP?".
Great points JU, the Oculus Rift sounds genuinely exciting and hopefully it gets proper support from developers. It's one piece of hardware that I'd seriously consider spending money on PC upgrades to experience. Your two points above are what I first thought of when thinking about Nintendo and innovation - not their hardware but software. Specifically moving some of their franchises into the 3rd dimension with wonderful results. Is it fair to say Mario Galaxy is the last Nintendo game that felt truly refreshing (even if it's still Mario)? Will there come a time when there's nothing new they can bring to Mario or Zelda or Pokemon?
I'm not sure what online play is like on the WiiU but it was non-existent on the Wii, compared to the fun to be had with Xbox Live at the time anyway. Has it improved any or is online an afterthought for Ninty still?But where did I say I was just talking about hardware?
I'm talking about the whole package. So far, the XBox One and the PS4 to me are just the XBox 360 and PS3 rebranded.
They'll need a little more than 2 months to properly impress I reckon. The WiiU has been out much longer to be fair.I didn't say the content available was crap though. I said I agree with 'a large part of the statement' - most games I find on both systems are boring, repetitive - not 'crap', but not far off.
I was referring to Ciderman's post from the thread in the Games forum, not yourself good sir.There are great games. But I haven't bought any of the new consoles now for the reasons Ciderdude mentioned in his comment, basically 'same thing, new box, fancier visuals' - eh, I'd rather keep my money thanks.
I can see that side but I'm thinking more power, better online (hopefully) so what great things can they do with it. Also, I'm not going to spend my money on something different (i.e. the WiiU and it's Gamepad) when there's shag all worth playing on it - if were talking launch window as you are.
Now I've zero interest in the Xbox One because of the direction MS are going with the entertainment centre focus, but the PS4 interests me because it's powerful, seemingly easier to develop for and is indie friendly. Still not getting one til there's plenty of games that interest me though. Or unless The Last Guardian suddenly turns into a PS4 game!! :eek:As far as experience, get out of it! :P Sony have been around in the gaming scene now since 1995 (and earlier than that from a development standpoint). That's plenty of time to figure the whole thing out. Hell, they were one of the first companies to really make it big with a disc based console - If that's not innovation I don't know what is.
I guess what I was getting at was Sony and MS aren't solely focussed on games, yes they have monster gaming divisions but gaming doesn't drive them like it does with Nintendo.0 -
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Same controllers. 90% the same games. Same whole idea. It's seriously tiresome at this point and simply just not very interesting.
Not that the WiiU is appealing to me very much either for that matter to be honest. But at least Nintendo are trying to add something with the tablet controller.
TV integration really the greatest innovation they can come up with in the last 14 years since the 360 was released? Really?
The thing is many of the aspects of consoles at the moment simply work. There's been attempts to improve on the joypad / mouse & keyboard combo for many years now, and yet nothing - at least nothing practical - has been invented to offer the same precision. The Kinect or Wiimote effectively collapse if you ask them to do anything other than vague, general directions and waggles. Touchscreens are useless for anything other than games purposefully designed with broad swipes and taps in mind. Even with the WiiU, 95% of the time you're just using the Gamepad as a standard controller, just a really big one. Hell, it was the same as the Wii - something like Mario Galaxy used the buttons and nunchucks for pretty much everything, other than the odd (and supremely satisfying, it must be said) Wiimote wave to launch yourself into space.
It's all well and good saying these consoles should be shipping with truly innovative controllers. But has anyone come up with a better method of input yet? If they can't offer something measurably more accurate and precise, then I don't want them to break what isn't broken just for the sake of blind innovation. Maybe Valve will hit gold with their eccentric haptic feedback effort, but even that doesn't abandon the basic structure of a joypad. Perhaps technology simply isn't there yet for us to move away, which is not the fault of Sony or Microsoft!
I also think you're seriously underselling both the previous and new generation of consoles. There's a tonne of innovations since the launches of the 360 and PS3: online marketplaces, Playstation Plus (glorious, glorious Playstation Plus), Playstation Now, in-built video and picture sharing, online co-op, Kinect, the PS4 touchpad, voice commands etc... Some of these are better than others, granted, but there's been a lot of progress since the vanilla launches of the last gen consoles. One of the great things as well is that we no longer have to wait 7 or 8 years for the next update - it's just a download away. That could be why the new consoles don't seem like such a massive leap in terms of raw features - it's because their predecessors have evolved in hugely significant ways over the course of their respective lifespans. It's actually a real shock going back and playing a vanilla 360 - it's a different beast altogether.
That's not even going into the games side of things! Sony's commitment to indie games is the most encouraging thing about the console, and there's a whole range of original, ambitious games I'm looking forward to playing on it. On the WiiU? Well, Bayonetta 2 and the inevitable Nintendo franchise sequels. I'm sure there's more, but the WiiU is every bit as guilty as the other consoles in those regards. It's absolutely incorrect to say it's just the same old games elsewhere - yeah, you have your Call of Duty 17: Jingoism All The Way, but I don't think Sony particularly could have made it any clearer that they're completely committed to new experiences too. On PS Plus alone we've already gotten Resogun, Contrast, Don't Starve and shortly Outlast - four wildly different, interesting games in as many months.The 3D on the 3DS, when done right, is stunning. It can add a whole new dimension to games. Sure, a lot of them are lazy, but some of them are excellent. It's definitely an innovation I'm glad to see Nintendo bring.
Well, it does literally add a whole new dimension, we can't argue with that :pac: Honestly though, the 3D is off 99% of the time I'm playing my 3DS, and I don't feel I'm missing much when I switch it on out of curiosity. A Link Between Worlds is the only time, along with maybe Mighty Switch Force, where it felt preferable to have it on thanks to the vertical layers that were built in to the gameplay and level design. But even then I'd call it a minor enhancement rather than a full on necessity, and that's without a doubt the most accomplished implementation of it I've seen. I personally don't feel 2DS owners are missing a whole lot!Maybe I was just spoiled growing up in an age where every new gen brought a huge leap, I dunno - am I just expecting too much?
I have to be honest and say I think you are Don't get me wrong, I will always warmly welcome genuinely progressive innovation as vocally as I can. But I also think it's much more complicated than just expecting every update to hardware to be hugely different or revolutionary (going back to my smartphone point). We've reached a point where everything is much more incremental, having rushed past many of the major natural evolutions. It's a shame to say, but realistically I can't imagine any jump, even with VR, as huge as the 2D to 3D jump, which most of us experience firsthand in all its mindblowing glory. That can't happen again, the same way the silent to talkie film jump could only ever occur once. Elsewhere, it's going to take a serious genius to improve on the analogue stick, the arcade stick or the mouse. Plus, the simple fact we are all older, and naturally a new console will not seem as magical or mystical as it did when we were younger
Above all, no matter how ordinary or straightforward the hardware is, it's how it's used that makes it. If the One and PS4 have a handful of games as imaginative as Journey or Dark Souls, then it's safe to say those little black boxes will have more than earned their keep!0 -
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Retr0gamer wrote: »...How is some one that can't even set the VCR supposed to deal with 10+ buttons, a d-pad and dual analog sticks. Even Sera won't play dual analog games...
Are you even old enough to have had to tackle programming a VCR?? Way harder than learning to use a joypad of any kind!
In other news I see we have another update on that Sega book. Being a programmer by trade I love finding out about the techie side of games, this is pretty cool I thought - part of a spec doc for SoR (Cidey will just view it as something useful when the toilet paper runs out!
).
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Are you even old enough to have had to tackle programming a VCR?? Way harder than learning to use a joypad of any kind!
In other news I see we have another update on that Sega book. Being a programmer by trade I love finding out about the techie side of games, this is pretty cool I thought - part of a spec doc for SoR (Cidey will just view it as something useful when the toilet paper runs out!).
Had to do a load of those last year for the game development course. Complete pain in the ass but they do really help later on in the coding. They are a great help for any software development.0 -
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Master of the UniverseJoin Date:Posts: 36854
johnny_ultimate wrote: »The thing is many of the aspects of consoles at the moment simply work. There's been attempts to improve on the joypad / mouse & keyboard combo for many years now, and yet nothing - at least nothing practical - has been invented to offer the same precision. The Kinect or Wiimote effectively collapse if you ask them to do anything other than vague, general directions and waggles. Touchscreens are useless for anything other than games purposefully designed with broad swipes and taps in mind. Even with the WiiU, 95% of the time you're just using the Gamepad as a standard controller, just a really big one. Hell, it was the same as the Wii - something like Mario Galaxy used the buttons and nunchucks for pretty much everything, other than the odd (and supremely satisfying, it must be said) Wiimote wave to launch yourself into space.
It's all well and good saying these consoles should be shipping with truly innovative controllers. But has anyone come up with a better method of input yet? If they can't offer something measurably more accurate and precise, then I don't want them to break what isn't broken just for the sake of blind innovation. Maybe Valve will hit gold with their eccentric haptic feedback effort, but even that doesn't abandon the basic structure of a joypad. Perhaps technology simply isn't there yet for us to move away, which is not the fault of Sony or Microsoft!
I do agree that there's definitely an element of 'if it ain't broke' - but do you not think this breeds a level of lazyness and apathy towards innovation too? Do you think we are now currently at the apex of videogame control design? I really don't think we are. We just seem to be at the apex of what is easiest to market and easiest to develop.
We saw it with the last few gens of Playstation controllers, they continued to use an outdated design for absolutely years which hadn't really changed much since the dual shock on the PS1.
Why? Well, it was as much part of their marketing and image as it was a controller. Not to mention it meant they didn't need to really put very much R&D into it either.
To be honest I'm actually very surprised they changed it up as much as they did with the PS4 (and am absolutely delighted to see it happen too!)johnny_ultimate wrote: »
I also think you're seriously underselling both the previous and new generation of consoles. There's a tonne of innovations since the launches of the 360 and PS3: online marketplaces, Playstation Plus (glorious, glorious Playstation Plus), Playstation Now, in-built video and picture sharing, online co-op, Kinect, the PS4 touchpad, voice commands etc... Some of these are better than others, granted, but there's been a lot of progress since the vanilla launches of the last gen consoles. One of the great things as well is that we no longer have to wait 7 or 8 years for the next update - it's just a download away. That could be why the new consoles don't seem like such a massive leap in terms of raw features - it's because their predecessors have evolved in hugely significant ways over the course of their respective lifespans. It's actually a real shock going back and playing a vanilla 360 - it's a different beast altogether.
You definitely have me there. I just don't personally find any of those innovations very interesting. So many it comes down to my own personal perceptions of the matter rather than what's actually going on.
It is very heavy on the selling/online marketing side of things, I really just don't find these interesting enough to be 'excited' about. Really don't care very much at all about about picture sharing, online co-op, marketplaces etc.johnny_ultimate wrote: »That's not even going into the games side of things! Sony's commitment to indie games is the most encouraging thing about the console, and there's a whole range of original, ambitious games I'm looking forward to playing on it. On the WiiU? Well, Bayonetta 2 and the inevitable Nintendo franchise sequels. I'm sure there's more, but the WiiU is every bit as guilty as the other consoles in those regards. It's absolutely incorrect to say it's just the same old games elsewhere - yeah, you have your Call of Duty 17: Jingoism All The Way, but I don't think Sony particularly could have made it any clearer that they're completely committed to new experiences too. On PS Plus alone we've already gotten Resogun, Contrast, Don't Starve and shortly Outlast - four wildly different, interesting games in as many months.
If we do see a good stream of games coming out on the PS4, I'll be picking one up. As of now though - nothing's really tickling my fancy.
Resogun does look great, but I've enough shmups on existing hardware.
Don't Starve I already have on my PC, so it wouldn't really be a PS4 seller for me.johnny_ultimate wrote: »Well, it does literally add a whole new dimension, we can't argue with that :pac: Honestly though, the 3D is off 99% of the time I'm playing my 3DS, and I don't feel I'm missing much when I switch it on out of curiosity. A Link Between Worlds is the only time, along with maybe Mighty Switch Force, where it felt preferable to have it on thanks to the vertical layers that were built in to the gameplay and level design. But even then I'd call it a minor enhancement rather than a full on necessity, and that's without a doubt the most accomplished implementation of it I've seen. I personally don't feel 2DS owners are missing a whole lot!
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!
I have the 3D on 90% of the time. The only times I'll switch it off is if it's becoming an uncomfortable experience for my eyes (happens in some games where it's badly implemented)
I've been absolutely loving the Sega 3D classics for example. There's just something excellent about 3D in 2D games. The way it enhances parallax scrolling, or the added depth it gives to games like Galaxy Force II. As someone who is really into 2D gaming I find this a very exciting addition as it adds a whole new ... I'll avoid using the word 'dimension' :pac: ... 'feel' to the game. To have something you've been playing for 20+ years suddenly feel fresh and new again is a great thing in itself.johnny_ultimate wrote: »I have to be honest and say I think you are Don't get me wrong, I will always warmly welcome genuinely progressive innovation as vocally as I can. But I also think it's much more complicated than just expecting every update to hardware to be hugely different or revolutionary (going back to my smartphone point). We've reached a point where everything is much more incremental, having rushed past many of the major natural evolutions. It's a shame to say, but realistically I can't imagine any jump, even with VR, as huge as the 2D to 3D jump, which most of us experience firsthand in all its mindblowing glory. That can't happen again, the same way the silent to talkie film jump could only ever occur once. Elsewhere, it's going to take a serious genius to improve on the analogue stick, the arcade stick or the mouse. Plus, the simple fact we are all older, and naturally a new console will not seem as magical or mystical as it did when we were younger
Above all, no matter how ordinary or straightforward the hardware is, it's how it's used that makes it. If the One and PS4 have a handful of games as imaginative as Journey or Dark Souls, then it's safe to say those little black boxes will have more than earned their keep!
The jump to VR is as impressive as the jump from 2D to 3D though. It's why I keep banging on about it so much
We have another huge jump like that in our hands, available for the taking. But what does the market do instead? Incremental steps as you said.
This is the main thing that's annoying me. It's like the gaming market is being stunted from progressing to the ultimate scenario of a fully immersed world because the status quo is to sit in front of your TV, with a standard shaped controller coming out of a black box.
Perhaps the real innovation I'm looking for is just going to be PC driven for the time being. Maybe I should go that way instead! 0 -
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The Last Bandit wrote: »What are you developing on Retro ?
iPad at the moment and using Corona SDK but I need a developers license to get it on the machine, although I'm no where near that stage yet. Spent the last week writing collision detection and then rewriting it when I found it wasn't good enough 0 -
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Master of the UniverseJoin Date:Posts: 36854
The Last Bandit wrote: »You should read "The Rise And Fall of Sega", its a fantastic insight into what tore the company apart.
Did you know Sega wrote the first emulator for a Nintendo console ?
What was the console and what was the emulator? Interesting stuff
Ah ffs, you just did a videogame version of a Rickroll.
I put 'Rise and Fall of Sega' into ebay to see if it was printed and just got loads of auctions for Rise of the Robots 0 -
Retr0gamer wrote: »iPad at the moment and using Corona SDK but I need a developers license to get it on the machine, although I'm no where near that stage yet. Spent the last week writing collision detection and then rewriting it when I found it wasn't good enough
Presumably the game isn't going to be called The Saga of the Candy Monsters or anything like that. :P0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 31,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 29838
I do agree that there's definitely an element of 'if it ain't broke' - but do you not think this breeds a level of lazyness and apathy towards innovation too? Do you think we are now currently at the apex of videogame control design? I really don't think we are. We just seem to be at the apex of what is easiest to market and easiest to develop.
We saw it with the last few gens of Playstation controllers, they continued to use an outdated design for absolutely years which hadn't really changed much since the dual shock on the PS1.
Why? Well, it was as much part of their marketing and image as it was a controller. Not to mention it meant they didn't need to really put very much R&D into it either.
To be honest I'm actually very surprised they changed it up as much as they did with the PS4 (and am absolutely delighted to see it happen too!)
'It ain't broke...' is no excuse for complacency, that I will happily concede. But I also think we have yet to get to the point where a viable replacement has emerged, and I don't think that's from a lack of trying. I agree with Retr0 and yourself that the Wii's greatest achievement was accessibility, but look at the challenges Nintendo came up against when trying to expand the level of experiences it could offer. Many games and whole genres need more precise control than the Wiimote was able to provide - even the likes of first person games, which when the Wii was announced seemed like the most natural fit for the device In so many ways, we're still stuck with joypads because no-one has theorised a truly capable alternative, or maybe the technology just isn't there yet for mass production of said alternative. After all, even with Oculus, how to you actually play the game? With a traditional controller attached to a generic box. There's probably some hyper sensitive sensor rig out there, say, that can act as an accurate full body input method, but I'd also imagine even large companies would balk at the cost! More than that, is something like that a reasonable ask for someone's living room at the moment?
As for R&D, I wouldn't imagine most companies are resting on their laurels when it comes to planning advances: I'd safely wager Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are constantly researching new ideas. After all, the extremely persistent rumours are that Sony is planning some sort of a VR headset for the PS4, and they'd be crazy not to be. They'll just be waiting until it's truly ready for the mass market to launch it. We can't forget even Oculus Rift haven't managed to release a consumer friendly version yet, with the HD graphics that will be integral to the full experience. These things take time, and I doubt Sony will be waiting until the PS5 to launch their significant new upgrade: no casual buyer wants a low-res, uncalibrated VR headset, after all. A console is nothing more than a core box at this point, adaptable and upgradable as required. I'd be very surprised if the vanilla Xbox One and PS4 aren't radically different to the same boxes in 2018.
Oh, and a telling figure: Microsoft spent $100 million on R&D for the Xbox One controller alone, experimenting with radical new methods of input. What did they end up with? A very slightly refined traditional controller with trigger rumble :pac: Even Kinect, now in its second generation, is still well short of where it needs to be at. Revolutionary technological advances just don't arrive - it's a pretty slow, painstaking process towards perfection. The funny thing is that, as we're all living it, it can seem incremental rather than revolutionary. Put it this way: if a gamer cryogenically frozen in 1990 woke up today, imagine their response to how far games have come in 25 years. Things change, and we're following every single little advance rather than the entire accumulation of those little changes 0 -
Retr0gamer wrote: »iPad at the moment and using Corona SDK but I need a developers license to get it on the machine, although I'm no where near that stage yet. Spent the last week writing collision detection and then rewriting it when I found it wasn't good enough
Once you get good I can sort out that Shamrouges license for you.0 -
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Master of the UniverseJoin Date:Posts: 36854
johnny_ultimate wrote: »After all, even with Oculus, how to you actually play the game? With a traditional controller attached to a generic box. There's probably some hyper sensitive sensor rig out there, say, that can act as an accurate full body input method, but I'd also imagine even large companies would balk at the cost! More than that, is something like that a reasonable ask for someone's living room at the moment?
See this is what I'm kind of getting at on the control front. A keyboard and mouse is impossible to use with the Rift. Once it's on, you're literally working on touch alone. I can touch type fine, but with the Rift on it completely removes any sense you have of where the keyboard actually is, so any such skills go totally out the window!
A standard controller is a bit better. However, it has a down side (which mouse and keyboard also has) - it's a tether to the 'real world' and acts as an immersion killer.
Have you heard of the Razer Hydra? It's kind of like a Wiimote and nunchuck you hold in each hand which act like virtual hands in the Rift. This is the kind of thing which needs to be developed on for VR hardware. Ideally, some kind of gloves you wear (no Powerglove comments please!) that sensed your finger movements would be ideal. 0 -
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johnny_ultimate wrote: »Put it this way: if a gamer cryogenically frozen in 1990 woke up today, imagine their response to how far games have come in 25 years. Things change, and we're following every single little advance rather than the entire accumulation of those little changes
Why am I stuck in one big long corridor and why does the game tell me the controls every 5 mintues?0 -
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Retr0gamer wrote: »Why am I stuck in one big long corridor and why does the game tell me the controls every 5 mintues?
I thought you liked Final Fantasy 13? 0
This discussion has been closed.
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