Arcade and Retro General Chat in Karkariko Village Tavern: Live Ocarina Music

o1s1n · 23-01-2014 12:13PM

Myrddin wrote: »

It's an interesting trend, but if you include the Wii, it changes drastically obviously.

Sometimes in data analysis you do remove extreme examples if you can justify a reason for it. It is after all just one upward spike on a downward trend.

Usually it would either be the removal of an error or else it was a special case which shouldn't be included.

You could debate the removal of the Wii as it was a bit of a fluke, absolute curve ball from Nintendo which they did just at the right time and got lucky... and the rest of the chart more accurately portrays where they're heading.

I guess as the Wii U lifecycle isn't over you can't really remove the Wii as the Wii U could go on to sell millions of more units.

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 12:21PM

I get what you're saying, but in this case it just strikes me as "Oh look, Nintendo have been on a downward slide for years...well except for that hugely successful thing they called the Wii which outsold everything around it".

CiDeRmAn · 23-01-2014 12:22PM

Perhaps we need to see steps to take the WiiU out of the same perceived price bracket as the PS4 and Xbox One.
Although it will cost them money it might give the system the kick in the tail it needs, plus of they can get good attachment of games at purchase of console they could insulate themselves from the effects of the price cut.
A physical release of Wii U Sports Club is a must as well.

Retr0gamer · 23-01-2014 12:30PM

It kind of ignores their handhelds as well.

o1s1n · 23-01-2014 12:35PM

The success of the 3DS really has taken away from the WiiU. It's sad how one franchise can obliterate another.

I'd love to support Nintendo and buy a WiiU, but feel like I'm getting more than enough of a Nintendo fix on the 3DS.

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 12:45PM

o1s1n wrote: »

The success of the 3DS really has taken away from the WiiU. It's sad how one franchise can obliterate another.

I'd love to support Nintendo and buy a WiiU, but feel like I'm getting more than enough of a Nintendo fix on the 3DS.

In a way, it's a shame the Wii U pad exists. Imagine if it hadn't, & Nintendo closely linked the Wii U & 3DS meaning you could use the 3DS for off-screen play, & use the Wii U to play your 3DS games on the big screen too

o1s1n · 23-01-2014 12:50PM

Now there's an idea!

If they released a stand alone WiiU which worked as a kind of wireless docking station for my 3DS at a lower price I'd be all over it.

CiDeRmAn · 23-01-2014 12:55PM

So you'd need to devise a way to use the 3DS as a Gamepad, with the big problem being the lack of a second stick, which would require patching existing games.
Also, are you going to sell it exclusively to 3DS owners or keep the option to sell a Gamepad too?
Is there processing done in the Gamepad or is it just a display that streams video with input data going the other way?
Interesting idea though, well done for thinking of it!

Oh ho, here's a rumour about just such a thing.

http://wiiudaily.com/2013/01/rumor-nintendo-working-on-catridge-to-allow-3ds-to-act-as-second-wii-u-gamepad/

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 01:05PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

So you'd need to devise a way to use the 3DS as a Gamepad, with the big problem being the lack of a second stick, which would require patching existing games.
Also, are you going to sell it exclusively to 3DS owners or keep the option to sell a Gamepad too?
Is there processing done in the Gamepad or is it just a display that streams video with input data going the other way?
Interesting idea though, well done for thinking of it!

The Wii U pad has been hacked afaik, & they've streamed Wii U content to other devices like tablets so the only processing going on would be the controller inputs & trasmission of them.

A 3DS XL, with a built in 2nd analogue stick, could have easily replaced the standard Wii U pad as a pack in device for a start. This would have been a very attractive bundle for €299.

They could sell a version then, without an XL in the box, for those who already own an XL. The selling feature would be you can off-screen play all Wii U content on your XL, at a pretty reduced price over the standard Wii U price. Would you buy this for €149/€169 if you already had an XL? Damn right you would.

It'll never happen, but this is the way they should have done it imo

CiDeRmAn · 23-01-2014 01:05PM

So, what sorry of price point would you set it at?
Assuming you already have the 3DS, €200, with the extra kit to hook up the handheld?
Does it really need the extra circle pad?

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 01:07PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Oh ho, here's a rumour about just such a thing.

http://wiiudaily.com/2013/01/rumor-nintendo-working-on-catridge-to-allow-3ds-to-act-as-second-wii-u-gamepad/

Ah, interesting! Though I still think they've missed a trick, this should have been how it was form the beginning. The fact the Wii U pad exists at all, kinda defeats the purpose of an XL as a controller.

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 01:10PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

So, what sorry of price point would you set it at?
Assuming you already have the 3DS, €200, with the extra kit to hook up the handheld?
Does it really need the extra circle pad?

There would have been two bundles:

1) Wii U & 3DS XL bundle - €299 {say €150 for the XL & €150 for the Wii U}
2) Wii U only {no controller, for those who owned an XL} - €150

Those would have been nice price points. And the fact is, it would really incentivise buying a Wii U too, which would have seen the sales figures quite possible much better than how they are now.

Again though, now that the Wii U pad exists, what would be the point of the above as you're forced to buy the Wii U pad with the Wii U so the costs goes up too high.

CiDeRmAn · 23-01-2014 01:13PM

But you can imagine the press from Sony and MS, prior to the WiiU introducing the second screen concept, making a big issue of a console needing a second console for control, the cost pushing into the €400/500 region, despite getting a state of the art handheld into the deal.
That said, imagine streaming 3D images from WiiU gameplay as well. All sorts of possibilities that the other formats can only dream of.
I guess we'll all have to wait and see, for sure Nintendo will be looking at all the options.

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 01:20PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

But you can imagine the press from Sony and MS, prior to the WiiU introducing the second screen concept, making a big issue of a console needing a second console for control, the cost pushing into the €400/500 region, despite getting a state of the art handheld into the deal

Well that'd be up to Nintendo marketing to put right, you could put the spin on it that not only are you getting a console, but your controller is something you can take on the go with you too...nobody else offers that. The cost couldn't need to be anywhere near €400/€500, that'd defeat the purpose. €299 for a combined bundle & watch them fly off the shelves. You then have a much bigger install base, to sell Wii U & 3DS software to, 3rd parties would be more interested, & with a combined account system, everything between systems would be inter-compatible.

All Wii U content playable on the 3DS XL, all 3DS software playable on the Wii U, combine all the accounts into one Nintendo account, hell, even transfer your Wii/Wii U VC content over to your 3DS to take with you on the go. All for €299, sign me up.

OwaynOTT · 23-01-2014 02:32PM

Myrddin wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but in this case it just strikes me as "Oh look, Nintendo have been on a downward slide for years...well except for that hugely successful thing they called the Wii which outsold everything around it".

And the ds sold massive amounts qs well.

CiDeRmAn · 23-01-2014 03:08PM

I thought the was just a cliche but the world really is full of people who wish I'll towards something for sport.
The amount of folk pouring scorn on Nintendo, their games output and the sales of their systems is amazing.
And most of it is pure made up on the spot, or based on someone else's opinion which was made up.
Nintendo own the handheld sector, and while the WiiU is disappointing in sales terms only a complete fool would be sounding out the death knell for the company, sadly there is no "minimum sense limit requirement" to post on a forum so we endure cabbages who insist Nintendo games are for kids and they're irrelevant in today's gaming landscape.

o1s1n · 23-01-2014 03:32PM

It does amaze me how much glee some people seem to take in the slow take up of the WiiU. I don't understand it.

In relation to that image I posted, it was purely aimed at a trend in their home console market. It is possible to analyze one division of a company only. (The success of the 3DS is in no way indicative of the validity of their home consoles).

It's kind of like putting up an analysis of Sony's home audio market and saying 'but you're missing the 3DS!' - well no, as that doesn't bear any weight with their audio equipment.

Sure, the 3DS is a lot more in line with their consoles, but it's still a different market.

I will concede that we are too soon into the WiiU's lifecycle to assume it's not going to sell, but as an overall trend of the last 30 years, it's a bit worrying to see. I do still think the Wii was an incredibly fluky one off blip that won't happen again. The casual market have their fancy smart phones now, I can't see them coming back for another console.

Anyway, all that rubbish aside, I really hope to feck the WiiU does pull out some magical recovery and this isn't a Sega-esque descent into Publishing only. I guess we'll at least probably always have them in the handheld market in some form.

Andrew76 · 23-01-2014 03:32PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I thought the was just a cliche but the world really is full of people who wish I'll towards something for sport.
The amount of folk pouring scorn on Nintendo, their games output and the sales of their systems is amazing.
And most of it is pure made up on the spot, or based on someone else's opinion which was made up.
Nintendo own the handheld sector, and while the WiiU is disappointing in sales terms only a complete fool would be sounding out the death knell for the company, sadly there is no "minimum sense limit requirement" to post on a forum so we endure cabbages who insist Nintendo games are for kids and they're irrelevant in today's gaming landscape.

Folks with too much time on their hands or a chip on the shoulder about who knows what.

Anyone who cares to spend even a few minutes researching knows that there's a ton of Nintendo content for all ages - and the fact a game can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike is to be admired. But Nintendo only have themselves to blame for the kiddie perception and any lack of recognition the Wii catalogue got - their marketing is woeful imo.

Also, I wouldn't call Sony and Microsoft's contribution to gaming as "another box, more platforms for the same old crap" - that's rubbish to be fair.

Mr.Saturn · 23-01-2014 03:36PM

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Also WiiU has only been on sale for 1 year. It might struggle to reach Gamecube levels though, Gamecube sale dropped off spectacularly very quickly, same could happen to WiiU.

Actually, knew I meant to post something recently. Jamisonia on Racketboy pointed me in the direction of a very good retrospective on the GCN by one Emily Rogers.

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

It is very, very detailed, and it'll take a bit to get through, but it collates all the key bits on the dev, release and legacy; covers everything from Miyamoto's disappointment in-depth, with lots of excerpts from the man himself, to the curious case of the Wiimote's original patent being that of a GCN add-on. I can't recommend it enough, even for those 'in the know'; I've been an avid GCN fanboy for a couple years now, and it still threw up quite a bit of new stuff. It even goes deep on the handle business.

A worrying still from its US launch gig.

attachment.php?attachmentid=275&stc=1&d=1075506969

attachment.php?attachmentid=275&stc=1&d=1075506969

o1s1n · 23-01-2014 03:36PM

Andrew76 wrote: »

Also, I wouldn't call Sony and Microsoft's contribution to gaming as "another box, more platforms for the same old crap" - that's rubbish to be fair.

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

I don't think you're going to see true innovation from either of them until the market properly pushes towards VR.

Myrddin · 23-01-2014 03:41PM

o1s1n wrote: »

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

But apart from control input, what more innovation can a console deliver in terms of hardware? VR, yes but they need to fit into a price point. Motion control has been done to death now & if I never had to pick up a Wii mote again it'd be too soon. All they're there to do is provide you with a gaming experience, & I'm not sure what's left to expand upon...headsets aside.

If anything, the One is at least trying something with the tv integration. Not my cup of tea at all, but it's expanding upon what consoles have been creeping towards for a while now with web players & apps etc.

The only innovation I'd like to see from the new generation, is gaming innovation/software...& it's way, way too early to snub them just yet imo

Andrew76 · 23-01-2014 03:58PM

o1s1n wrote: »

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

I don't think you're going to see true innovation from either of them until the market properly pushes towards VR.

Sony and MS might not innovate as much as Nintendo (they have less experience in the gaming field and other business interests too) - but calling the content available on their systems "crap" is plain wrong.

Also, some of the "innovation" from Nintendo I can certainly live without (maybe I'm in the minority);

- Wii: Motion controls can bugger off.
- 3DS: 3D that most folks don't use - either because a game doesn't utilise it, kills the battery, kills your eyes. How many games really benefit from the unique selling point of the machine?
- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.

Now the above isn't Ninty bashing - they made some of my favourite games and machines of all time - they're just not the be all and end all of gaming.

Hopefully they and Sony and MS will be around the gaming scene for a long time to come.

Retr0gamer · 23-01-2014 04:20PM

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

Actually, knew I meant to post something recently. Jamisonia on Racketboy pointed me in the direction of a very good retrospective on the GCN by one Emily Rogers.

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

Gave it a read ages ago. Really great article and so indepth as well.

Andrew76 wrote: »

- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.

I can't disagree with you more there. I think it's a wonderful innovation that just isn't get the use that it should. If you've played the multiplayer mode of ZombiU you'd see the potential in it. One player with the Pad is basically the dungeon master and puts down the obstacles in the other players path. If only other developers, especially Nintendo, could grasp the potential the pad can bring and really use it. The dungeon master use has just so much potential.

johnny_ultimate · 23-01-2014 04:21PM

You see the same innovation argument with phones every time a new one is released. There's always people wondering where the innovation is in this incremental upgrade of an iPhone, Nexus or Galaxy. And while I always welcome innovation - and I very much value Nintendo's ambition and imagination in that regard - when it comes to technology eventually you do end up with a process of refinement and modest evolution as opposed to complete revolution. As innovative as the Gamepad is in some regards, has it changed the way we play games? Not really, let's be honest, a few imaginative implementations aside. Same with the 3D of the 3DS - even in games where it's well utilised or adds something to the aesthetics / gameplay, you can still happily live without it. Indeed, Nintendo even dictate that the 3D can't be integral to the gameplay: and the 2DS offers a very literal interpretation of why not. Kinect, another hugely ambitious idea, has also failed to come to life in most respects, and I'm sure is pretty much actively rejected by most people here.

We will see significant gaming hardware innovation somewhere - the Oculus Rift being the current great hope (although funnily enough Nintendo have already been there :pac:) - but for every revolution there's 1,000 failures or ideas that fail to truly take off. How many consoles, even great ones, have been completely innovative anyway? The PS2, one of the all time greats, was little more than a more powerful refinement of its predecessor. Not every single console can be a brave new world: ultimately, you get to the point where everything works so fundamentally well, that a technological upgrade and some general refinement is incredibly valuable. The PS4, for example, is a fuller realisation of many of the ideas that didn't quite become fully formed on PS3 (say, the online features). That's still important. Not to discourage innovation, and I hope Nintendo continue to release innovative machines, but we can't just dismiss a more straightforward hardware upgrade right off the bat - heck, the likes of the Megadrive or SNES one could argue sort of slotted into that category anyway. How do you improve a smartphone, or a controller? More often than not, it's not going to be a very radical answer.

It's what people do with the hardware, whether that's a new form of controller or simply a more powerful box, that matters. Funnily enough, I'm not sure how long it's been since Nintendo released a truly groundbreaking game (Mario Galaxy maybe?): in many cases they've just been honing and remixing a core formula for decades now. I still think their games show enough imagination and energy that that barely matters, and it's almost as if some their franchises manage to improve on near perfection in ways both subtle and obvious. But honestly I also think Nintendo have kind of been behind the curve when it comes to some aspects of gaming innovation, such as advancing the way stories are told in games. A Link Between Worlds, for example, is a superb game, immaculately crafted, but it's a whole lot less forward thinking and ambitious than something like Papers Please or Gone Home. I would really love to see Nintendo create something entirely new: while I will never agree with the naysayers who dismiss Mario right out of hand, I do think they have a point when they wonder "where's the completely new Nintendo IP?".

moonlighting · 23-01-2014 04:28PM

Nintendo World Championships cartridge making the headlines again.
cant understand the fascination with that game.
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2014/01/nwc-gray-mario/

DinoRex · 23-01-2014 04:30PM

The best thing about the WiiU so far for me is the fact that it's the only console that isn't afraid to actually use colours.

Remember colours? Colours are great!

Retr0gamer · 23-01-2014 04:32PM

DinoRex wrote: »

The best thing about the WiiU so far for me is the fact that it's the only console that isn't afraid to actually use colours.

Remember colours? Colours are great!

I have to agree. Look at all the new games on the PS4 and XBox One. I can safely say that Mario 3D World and Pikmin 3 are far better looking games than either.

Retr0gamer · 23-01-2014 04:36PM

Well I'm hoping Nintendo are working on something that really justifies the Gamepad, remember the touch screen on the DS was a gimmick for well over a year until Canvas Curse arrived and opened the floodgates for touch screen controls on the system. Unlike 3D it actually does have potential as a gameplay device.

As for the PS2 only being a refinement at what came before, I actually see that console as a massive step backwards in terms of other consoles at the time. Only two controller ports, blasphemy!

DinoRex · 23-01-2014 04:37PM

And I really love the little splash screens that pop up when a game is loading. Really make you realise how cool a HD TV is.

I'd love to see more games that take advantage of asymmetrical gameplay... they could also look to the current world of board games for some great ideas to implement the gamepad.

johnny_ultimate · 23-01-2014 04:37PM

Ermm...

waterfall__assassin_s_creed_4_black_flag_by_bustaros-d6xbgcs.png

Arcade and Retro General Chat in Karkariko Village Tavern: Live Ocarina Music

Comments