Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

My name is URL · 23-01-2014 06:44PM

Some laugh to hear Callinan say that the whistleblowers should have reported it internally. This is the same guy that shared confidential info with Alan Shatter so that he could discredit a political opponent :rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick · 23-01-2014 07:02PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Some laugh to hear Callinan say that the whistleblowers should have reported it internally. This is the same guy that shared confidential info with Alan Shatter so that he could discredit a political opponent :rolleyes:

It's just like Edward Snowden being criticized for not going up the internal chain of command instead of going to the papers.

Roughly translated in both cases: "You should have voiced your concerns in such as way as to make it easy for us to ignore you!!!"

RustyNut · 23-01-2014 07:29PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's just like Edward Snowden being criticized for not going up the internal chain of command instead of going to the papers.

Roughly translated in both cases: "You should have voiced your concerns in such as way as to make it easy for us to ignore you!!!"

And it's a big fat national secret how many complaints if any have actually been made through the internal process much less how many were upheld. I wonder why that info is so secret ?

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2014 07:58PM

If one good thing comes from this, it might be that Callinan either retires or is forced out. Great news for AGS!

As for the corruption, it happens everywhere, in every job. It's the level of corruption that's the issue. Petty, Grand or Systemic. We've all heard of that person who got x charge quashed, but did anything exchange hands, or were services offered? If it was quashed without any personal or financial gain, is it corruption in the strict meaning of the word? I'm not qualified or educated enough to answer that, albeit my belief of corruption is that something is done in exchange for something else, be it physical reward (ie: money) or employment benefit (ie: a jump in grade/a good word put in).

Either way, Callinan done himself no favours today, and I for one will be delighted to see him go. I only fear for what will replace him...

My name is URL · 23-01-2014 08:55PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

If it was quashed without any personal or financial gain, is it corruption in the strict meaning of the word?

Yes!

guilty of dishonest practices
lacking integrity

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corrupt

It's obviously not on the same level as embezzlement and the likes but it's definitely corruption none the less.

I hope the two guys are allowed to speak publicly to the PAC. The idea of this seemed to have really shaken Callinan, and I'm guessing it wouldn't have if he knew there was nothing to their allegations.

SNAKEDOC · 23-01-2014 09:05PM

adrag wrote: »

I know only too well what their like, and like all thugs they're brave in a group but on there own no.the very same as the gangs in estates

Your statements are way out of line as are a lot of the crap im rwading on this thread. I wonder if half of you so called citizens would be as quick to throw out the loose tongue slander you have if you served in an garda siochana. Just remember that gardai read the news paper and lusten to the opinion polls about garda popularity. Now think about this. Next time you see a garda racing down the road to the scene of a crime they know that the person they are about to help probably would just as quick spit in their faces yet they help them anyway.
The critisism on this thread is discusting for a group of men and women who day in day out work for other peoples safety yet get scorned for it. And here is another little fact for all you idiots who know nothing about the gardai there are a little over 13000 thousand gardai including all office staff commisioner deputy commisioner inspectors and so on so that leaves probably 8000 front line gardai on the streets to police 4.5 million. On the island of manhattan there are over 15000 front line officers the island is smaller than dublin. On an average day there ar 800 gardai in dublin. Now can anyone in their right mind come on here and dish out abuse when the garda already have thier backs to the wall. Do you honestly blame them for as someone put it circaling the wagons. They are trying to maintain order in a country that is turning into bandit country. Give them a break. With the breed of acum on the streets today we need a rough force to deal with that. Fight fire with fire. I say keep up the good work.

adrag · 23-01-2014 09:12PM

Its said that dihonesty , lack of integrity comes from the top down , callinan should go because as a former special branch man he knows everthing goin on in the country never mind the gaurds, and as the old saying goes; mountjoy is a place were big crims put little criminals, ie dodgy politicians, bogey garda

Boombastic · 23-01-2014 09:16PM

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

ur statements are way out of line as are a lot of the crap im rwading on this thread. I wonder if half of you so called citizens would be as quick to throw out the loose tongue slander you have if you served in an garda siochana. Just remember that gardai read the news paper and lusten to the opinion polls about garda popularity. Now think about this. Next time you see a garda racing down the road to the scene of a crime they know that the person they are about to help probably would just as quick spit in their faces yet they help them anyway.
The critisism on this thread is discusting for a group of men and women who day in day out work for other peoples safety yet get scorned for it. And here is another little fact for all you idiots who know nothing about the gardai there are a little over 13000 thousand gardai including all office staff commisioner deputy commisioner inspectors and so on so that leaves probably 8000 front line gardai on the streets to police 4.5 million. On the island of manhattan there are over 15000 front line officers the island is smaller than dublin. On an average day there ar 800 gardai in dublin. Now can anyone in their right mind come on here and dish out abuse when the garda already have thier backs to the wall. Do you honestly blame them for as someone put it circaling the wagons. They are trying to maintain order in a country that is turning into bandit country. Give them a break. With the breed of acum on the streets today we need a rough force to deal with that. Fight fire with fire. I say keep up the good work.

Fight fire with fire? What become corrupt to tackle corruption? It's about 4 quashes per officer

joolsveer · 23-01-2014 09:19PM

The commissioner says "my force" and "my officers" when referring to the Garda Síochána. Is this strange?

adrag · 23-01-2014 09:22PM

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Your statements are way out of line as are a lot of the crap im rwading on this thread. I wonder if half of you so called citizens would be as quick to throw out the loose tongue slander you have if you served in an garda siochana. Just remember that gardai read the news paper and lusten to the opinion polls about garda popularity. Now think about this. Next time you see a garda racing down the road to the scene of a crime they know that the person they are about to help probably would just as quick spit in their faces yet they help them anyway.
The critisism on this thread is discusting for a group of men and women who day in day out work for other peoples safety yet get scorned for it. And here is another little fact for all you idiots who know nothing about the gardai there are a little over 13000 thousand gardai including all office staff commisioner deputy commisioner inspectors and so on so that leaves probably 8000 front line gardai on the streets to police 4.5 million. On the island of manhattan there are over 15000 front line officers the island is smaller than dublin. On an average day there ar 800 gardai in dublin. Now can anyone in their right mind come on here and dish out abuse when the garda already have thier backs to the wall. Do you honestly blame them for as someone put it circaling the wagons. They are trying to maintain order in a country that is turning into bandit country. Give them a break. With the breed of acum on the streets today we need a rough force to deal with that. Fight fire with fire. I say keep up the good work.

Of course there are some good gaurds but its the culture of ;garda organisation first; honesty and truth 2nd not my words Judge Swithwick.i also agree they need to be tough with gangs, but if you're unfortunate to live were these gangs operate you are subject to the same abuse, do u think thats ok.also check out manchester bigger pop than us, a lot smaller granted, alot more crime committed /reported smaller police force

adrag · 23-01-2014 09:29PM

joolsveer wrote: »

The commissioner says "my force" and "my officers" when referring to the Garda Síochána. Is this strange?

He is the godfather Don Callinana

RustyNut · 23-01-2014 09:32PM

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Your statements are way out of line as are a lot of the crap im rwading on this thread. I wonder if half of you so called citizens would be as quick to throw out the loose tongue slander you have if you served in an garda siochana. Just remember that gardai read the news paper and lusten to the opinion polls about garda popularity. Now think about this. Next time you see a garda racing down the road to the scene of a crime they know that the person they are about to help probably would just as quick spit in their faces yet they help them anyway.
The critisism on this thread is discusting for a group of men and women who day in day out work for other peoples safety yet get scorned for it. And here is another little fact for all you idiots who know nothing about the gardai there are a little over 13000 thousand gardai including all office staff commisioner deputy commisioner inspectors and so on so that leaves probably 8000 front line gardai on the streets to police 4.5 million. On the island of manhattan there are over 15000 front line officers the island is smaller than dublin. On an average day there ar 800 gardai in dublin. Now can anyone in their right mind come on here and dish out abuse when the garda already have thier backs to the wall. Do you honestly blame them for as someone put it circaling the wagons. They are trying to maintain order in a country that is turning into bandit country. Give them a break. With the breed of acum on the streets today we need a rough force to deal with that. Fight fire with fire. I say keep up the good work.

Is your point that because AGS do a tough job that any corruption should be swept under the carpet ?

Do you think that the most powerful organisation in the country should not be held to the highest standard and should be willing to openly address any allegations of wrongdoing.

And as for turning into bandit country. :rolleyes:

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2014 09:32PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Yes!
guilty of dishonest practices

lacking integrity

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corrupt

It's obviously not on the same level as embezzlement and the likes but it's definitely corruption none the less.

I hope the two guys are allowed to speak publicly to the PAC. The idea of this seemed to have really shaken Callinan, and I'm guessing it wouldn't have if he knew there was nothing to their allegations.

While i agree with you, is there anyone here who can honestly say that they are not guilty of dishonest practices or lacking integrity? Everyone, and i would be comfortable in saying everyone, is guilty and/or lacking at least once in their lives.

Guilty of dishonest practices and lacking integrity - Something as simple as saying nothing when you get more in change than you should have (even just 1c), taking a sweet from the pic 'n' mix and not paying, finding a Euro on the street and pocketing it, giving slightly more than half of something you're supposed to be sharing to yourself, etc, etc. Everyone is guilty or lacking.

Again, nothing akin to embezzlement, but still corrupt...

*Please note light-heartedness!

23-01-2014 09:34PM

Of course penalty point have been squashed, that sort of thing is part of social and cultural capital in our society and is part of the web of connection and ties that bind, however is that corruption? I am not so sure.

adrag · 23-01-2014 09:40PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course penalty point have been squashed, that sort of thing is part of social and cultural capital in our society and part of web of connection and ties that bind, however is that corruption? I am not so sure.

So if your not in the know it is just tough

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2014 09:43PM

adrag wrote: »

So if your not in the know it is just tough

Same can be said of the private sector - builders doing jobs on the cheap for their builder mates, Mary behind the deli giving her friend Patsy an extra dollop of slaw for nothing, Pat the barman giving Johnny the electrician a few free pints for fixing the Miller sign on the cheap, Achmed rounding down the over price of shopping for his friend Fasil, Anto throwing in a free yoke for Damo, etc.

My name is URL · 23-01-2014 09:43PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

While i agree with you, is there anyone here who can honestly say that they are not guilty of dishonest practices or lacking integrity? Everyone, and i would be comfortable in saying everyone, is guilty and/or lacking at least once in their lives.

Guilty of dishonest practices and lacking integrity - Something as simple as saying nothing when you get more in change than you should have (even just 1c), taking a sweet from the pic 'n' mix and not paying, finding a Euro on the street and pocketing it, giving slightly more than half of something you're supposed to be sharing to yourself, etc, etc. Everyone is guilty or lacking.

Again, nothing akin to embezzlement, but still corrupt...

*Please note light-heartedness!

You're right of course. I doubt many (or any) of us could say in all seriousness that we've never been dishonest in anything we've done.

It's a different kettle of fish though when it becomes something that's accepted and systemically hushed up when someone brings attention to it.

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2014 09:45PM

My name is URL wrote: »

You're right of course. I doubt many (or any) of us could say in all seriousness that we've never been dishonest in anything we've done.

It's a different kettle of fish though when it becomes something that's accepted and systemically hushed up when someone brings attention to it.

Very true, and i don't think AGS ever thought that they'd be in the position of trying to explain letting a few lads off a few points. Where does one draw the line?

RustyNut · 23-01-2014 09:47PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course penalty point have been squashed, that sort of thing is part of social and cultural capital in our society and part of web of connection and ties that bind, however is that corruption? I am not so sure.

Is that not corruption at its most basic ? The law apples to everybody,

except those in the know.

Knob Longman · 23-01-2014 09:51PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Same can be said of the private sector - builders doing jobs on the cheap for their builder mates, Mary behind the deli giving her friend Patsy an extra dollop of slaw for nothing, Pat the barman giving Johnny the electrician a few free pints for fixing the Miller sign on the cheap, Achmed rounding down the over price of shopping for his friend Fasil, Anto throwing in a free yoke for Damo, etc.

None of these people are supposed to be actually enforcing the law...

tayto lover · 23-01-2014 09:55PM

Pay peanuts - get monkeys.

I wouldn't do their job for twice the wage.

adrag · 23-01-2014 09:57PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Very true, and i don't think AGS ever thought that they'd be in the position of trying to explain letting a few lads off a few points. Where does one draw the line?

More than a few lads now, but if your no in the clique you keep your points, its the little things it starts with next thing lying, were does it end .Also I wouldn't mind they're paid very, very well

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2014 09:58PM

Knob Longman wrote: »

None of these people are supposed to be actually enforcing the law...

I agree, just pointing out that corruption exists in all walks of life.

23-01-2014 10:10PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Is that not corruption at its most basic ? The law apples to everybody,

except those in the know.

I know you are right but we don't live in a perfect society it a very difficult one to get a handle on I think, strictly speaking there should never be room for interpretation but real life is not like that.

adrag · 23-01-2014 10:23PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Same can be said of the private sector - builders doing jobs on the cheap for their builder mates, Mary behind the deli giving her friend Patsy an extra dollop of slaw for nothing, Pat the barman giving Johnny the electrician a few free pints for fixing the Miller sign on the cheap, Achmed rounding down the over price of shopping for his friend Fasil, Anto throwing in a free yoke for Damo, etc.

Gardai are unique you're comparing apples and oranges, were does it stop lying in court , setting people up.Do u realise that on the ones who had points cancelled which would have brought them to12point which would have led to a ban, this person ended up being in a fatal crash, the simple fact with ags is they cant take criticism,abuse their power,and cover up any criminality.GARDA first HONESTY second

adrag · 23-01-2014 10:29PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course penalty point have been squashed, that sort of thing is part of social and cultural capital in our society and part of web of connection and ties that bind, however is that corruption? I am not so sure.

So if your not in the know it is just tough

adrag · 23-01-2014 10:29PM

joolsveer wrote: »

The commissioner says "my force" and "my officers" when referring to the Garda Síochána. Is this strange?

He is the godfather Don Callinana

adrag · 23-01-2014 10:29PM

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Your statements are way out of line as are a lot of the crap im rwading on this thread. I wonder if half of you so called citizens would be as quick to throw out the loose tongue slander you have if you served in an garda siochana. Just remember that gardai read the news paper and lusten to the opinion polls about garda popularity. Now think about this. Next time you see a garda racing down the road to the scene of a crime they know that the person they are about to help probably would just as quick spit in their faces yet they help them anyway.
The critisism on this thread is discusting for a group of men and women who day in day out work for other peoples safety yet get scorned for it. And here is another little fact for all you idiots who know nothing about the gardai there are a little over 13000 thousand gardai including all office staff commisioner deputy commisioner inspectors and so on so that leaves probably 8000 front line gardai on the streets to police 4.5 million. On the island of manhattan there are over 15000 front line officers the island is smaller than dublin. On an average day there ar 800 gardai in dublin. Now can anyone in their right mind come on here and dish out abuse when the garda already have thier backs to the wall. Do you honestly blame them for as someone put it circaling the wagons. They are trying to maintain order in a country that is turning into bandit country. Give them a break. With the breed of acum on the streets today we need a rough force to deal with that. Fight fire with fire. I say keep up the good work.

Of course there are some good gaurds but its the culture of ;garda organisation first; honesty and truth 2nd not my words Judge Swithwick.i also agree they need to be tough with gangs, but if you're unfortunate to live were these gangs operate you are subject to the same abuse, do u think thats ok

tayto lover · 23-01-2014 10:39PM

Funny -- adrag spells garda backwards.
Odd choice of name.:D

23-01-2014 10:49PM

adrag wrote: »

So if your not in the know it is just tough

I don't know what the answer is, look up what social and cultural capital is, lots of people have social ties and connection to other people that bring them advantage's could we or should change that, is it realistic to expect that the Garda be above reproach in every way even in very trivial matters ( not saying penalty point is a trivial matter ) Maybe we should expect that I don't know, I do think Irish society is changing and we are becoming much less tolerant of the wink and nod culture.

Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

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