€4m Rehab scratch card sales yielded just €9,452 profit in 2010

everdead.ie · 23-01-2014 12:51PM

mango salsa wrote: »

Who bought in the law?

I don't know but Fina Fail were in power when the National Lottery was set up so assuming the law came in at the same time it would have been Fina Fail.

jmayo · 23-01-2014 01:29PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They did nothing illegal, hell the government even subsidised them to do it.

Here is some interesting information on the charitable lottery fund...

The Minister for Justice & Equality, Alan Shatter, gave details to John McGuinness (FF, Carlow Kilkenny) of the Charitable Lottery Fund (Dail Eireann, Debates, 27th March 2012, 904-5) (this is the fund set up to compensate charities which used to run their own lotteries from the consequences of the competition arising from the establishment of the National Lottery in the 1980s – ed). This year, €6m was allocated to Rehab, Gael Linn, the Asthma Society, Irish Cancer Society, Polio Fellowship, Hanley Centre, FASI, Irish Lung Foundation, ISPCC, West of Ireland Alzheimer Foundation, Drogheda Community Services Trust, Irish ME Trust, St Kieran’s Community Centre, Longford Cathedral Circle, Associated Charities Trust, Lyreacrompane Community Development, Mulreany Day Centre Housing, Slieve-Ardagh Rural Development and Cappoquin Community development.

So much for thinking it was just Rehab.
The Irish Cancer Society actually made a loss over a number of years on their scratch cards/lottery, but they were ok thanks to the subvention from the state.

Murt10 wrote: »

Brilliant this from Morning Ireland on RTE 1 on 6 Jan 2014. CEO Angela Kerins of Rehab refused to divulge her salary, bullsh****ing that Rehab was operating in a commercial environment.

Skip the first part, which is what she came on to be interviewed about, to 3.10 mins. She was rightly ambushed and full of bluster. RTE even deferred going over to the 8.30 am news, so that they could question her

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2014/0106/20499542-rehab-group-signs-contract-to-develop-employment-programmes-for-people-with-disabilities-in-saudi-arabia/

Hats off to RTE for the interview and also to the current edition of the
Pheonix for highlighting it again

Heard that live and it was pure gold.
I also heard someone else caught in the same manner, can't remember who the guy was.
The one thing it made me realise is these overpaid executives really are arrogant and actually a bit thick.

How they can expect to come onto a media outlet, expect to be allowed mouth off about someone else, but yet not have to answer about themselves is quiet baffling. :rolleyes:

In 2011 this appeared in the Irish Times concerning the CEO.

The Phoenixmagazine reported last week that Ms Kerins’s salary was in excess of €300,000. When a bonus, along with pension entitlements, car benefits and expenses were factored in, the figure rose to more than €400,000.

Rehab has also defended its decision to award a contract for the supply of materials from a company whose directors included Ms Kerins’s husband, Seán Kerins, and her brother, Joseph Mac Carthy. Complete Eco Solutions imports timber panels from China which are then used by Rehab staff to assemble into coffins.

BTW frank flannery was also involved in the company AFAIK.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-to-review-pay-of-disability-service-executives-1.585179

golfball37 wrote: »

They can't blame this one on FF either as the Rehab board is stuffed full of FG cronies.

Great country.

The most noticable thing is that frank flannery is on the board, was CEO and is up to his neck in the place.
kerins was pretty close to a few fianna failers and pds over the years.
Not sure about the rest ?
Perhaps someone can enlighten us ?

Arthur Beesley · 23-01-2014 01:29PM

That's another charity on the list of Charities to never contribute to again.

homerjay2005 · 23-01-2014 01:32PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Sadly, like the CRC your average punter will see this as another charity wasting money and may hold back on future donations.

.

there 100's of fantastic charities in this country, some of the volunteering working being done is second to none across the globe...HOWEVER, there are some major charities around Ireland that are anything but charities...they are business and their first and foremost aim is to make money to pay themselves.

there was a thread a few months back about CE salaries at these companies and its sickening how much money they earn. they are putting their own pocket first, some of them have wage bills of €5million plus.

jmayo · 23-01-2014 01:45PM

mango salsa wrote: »

Who bought in the law?

Ok this all harks back to the Charitable Lotteries Scheme which was brought in in 1997 by bertie aherns government.
Why should we surprised yet another half ar**ed scheme originated out of one of his governments. :rolleyes:

And there was an interesting debate on the issue between tervor sargent and minister of finance charlie mccreevy.

trevor sargent asked a every pertinent question that is the numb of the point made by shatter.

sargent asked the minister ...

whether his Department has formulated a view on whether it is a good idea for the State to involve itself in supplementing the income of private undertakings in areas where those private undertakings suffer a loss of income as a result of having products in direct competition with products offered by State-backed competitors; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

For Your information ...

The scheme was advertised in the newspapers on 8 October 1997. Applications were invited from the promoters of private charitable lotteries conducted under the provisions of existing gaming and lotteries legislation which were in operation on 1 July 1997. The closing date for receipt of applications is 31 October 1997. The applications will be evaluated by an independent committee, which will advise as to whether they meet the eligibility criteria laid down for the scheme. Subject to the availability of funds and to the other conditions of the scheme being met, it is intended that eligible charitable lotteries will be assisted in proportion to the volume of their average annual turnover in the three most recent years of account as certified by the organisation's auditors.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1997102200073?opendocument

jmayo · 23-01-2014 01:53PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there 100's of fantastic charities in this country, some of the volunteering working being done is second to none across the globe...HOWEVER, there are some major charities around Ireland that are anything but charities...they are business and their first and foremost aim is to make money to pay themselves.

there was a thread a few months back about CE salaries at these companies and its sickening how much money they earn. they are putting their own pocket first, some of them have wage bills of €5million plus.

One of the few charities coming out of this ok is Jack and Jill.
If anyone knows the back story they would know why the CEO and founder is actually doing it and it aint for the money.

As CEO, my salary is just under €90,000 today and I’ve been very open about that. For the first 6 years of running Jack & Jill I did not draw a salary for this busy role which is 7 days a week. I can assure you that I get no top up payments, no bonus, no pension. My salary is justified on the basis that since 1997 we have supported 1,700 children with home nursing care and raised €47 million privately while we’ve received only €4.5 million from the HSE. So my salary as a percentage of the fundraising I’ve done is less than 2%.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jonathan-irwin-jack-and-jill-foundation-top-ups-charities-1198829-Nov2013/

systemicrisk · 23-01-2014 01:56PM

EyeSight wrote: »

You know what's funny about all these high paid charity boards? Is that there are volunteers in the organisations who would do as well a job for way less and in some cases even for free.
Does a small charity need a high powered CEO on a bank CEOs wage? NO!

I agree the board and executives treat the charities like a company that they are to manage. This is fine but it assumes that they are the best people for the job just because they have executive experience. This executive experience usually comes from political ties and not from an exhaustive search for the most qualified person with actual experience running a charity. Its the same with most semi-state run charities and companies.

Look at Irish Water, they have a group of administrators at the top who jump form board to board of semi state companies, appointed through political connections. Then because they have no experience in the field they have to spend tens of millions on "expert" consultants. If the government want these general administrators at the top who has jumped from semi state to semi state then fine but they should not earn as much as a government minister.

The chief executive of a large company should be someone who worked their way up through the industry and knows it inside out. They should be driven and passionate about their work and want to make their company succeed. Someone like this is worth a bit more money because their expertise will save money in the long run and drive profits.

In the charity sector the person should be someone who truly cares about the charity and the issues they are dealing with and are not willing to take huge salaries at the expense of the charity. Look at John O'Shea, whatever you say about his management style and people skills or even his views on how the charity should be run he truly cared about what GOAL was doing and he never took a salary greater than €100k.

All the stuff thats coming out at the minute sickens me. I have always been optimistic that we would come out of this recession stronger as a nation with better values and that there would be less acceptance of corruption and greed at the top. It seems that the old guard are refusing to let go of their grip on power and that very little is changing. I am not so optimistic any more.

EyeSight · 23-01-2014 02:00PM

If a charity now, volunteered or advertised their boards pay and they weren't taking the piss. I would send all my future charitable donations to them rather than just randomly picking charities and finding this

norrie rugger · 23-01-2014 02:15PM

EyeSight wrote: »

I agree, besides the big 3 who are all the same, the other parties are very socialist.

Given that it is constant conservative/capitalist parties that keep getting into this mess, why are Irish people so afraid of potential left leaning politics??

EyeSight · 23-01-2014 02:24PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

Given that it is constant conservative/capitalist parties that keep getting into this mess, why are Irish people so afraid of potential left leaning politics??

to me they seem to go too left. Not so much "leaning left".
Also whenever most of these parties have rallies or protest, they seem to be dominated by "republicans".
Better PR and organisation by said parties would help. Not just waiting until the government screws up and automatically asking for the opposite

norrie rugger · 23-01-2014 02:26PM

Labour tried that for years and only made headway by being populist. Irish people are happy to whinge about our governments but we are the electorate that keeps the same two right wing parties in power

IvaBigWun · 23-01-2014 04:06PM

jmayo wrote: »

One of the few charities coming out of this ok is Jack and Jill.
If anyone knows the back story they would know why the CEO and founder is actually doing it and it aint for the money.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jonathan-irwin-jack-and-jill-foundation-top-ups-charities-1198829-Nov2013/

Now *thats* how you justify your salary as a charity's CEO

jmayo · 23-01-2014 04:15PM

Jaysus H C we do not have right wing parties.
We have centrist populist parties that more than likely try and appeal to everyone.
ff were very good at this, they were nearly all things to all men/women.

If you want to see right wing parties take a gander at someone like the Front National in France, the tea party in the US, or Golden Dawn in Greece.
The US is interesting as the Republicans are seen as right wing whereas some see the Democrats as left wing.
IMHO the Democrates would make ff and FG appear like communists.

Irish people do not go for left or right (nevermind far anything), they tend to go for middle of the road that promises them more.

Look at the UK where New Labour became more like the conservatives in order to win election.
Hell some saw tony blair as thatchers greatest achievement.

Anyway right, left, ff, FG/Lab or whoever is in power, we do have a huge issue in this country where nobody in positions of power, particularly in public positions (but also in some private institutions), wants to take responsibility and yet wants to make as much money as possible no matter what, whilst claiming they are worth way more than comparable or way better people in similar jobs in other states.

It aint just a political issue, it is an issue for Irish society as a whole.

EDIT: It is easy for people to sound off about politicans and lambast the lowrys, the lawlors, the aherns, the callelys, the burkes, etc, but who votes for them.

Everyone knew about ahern's dodgy finances, everyone knew about the huge wastage of money by his governments and most sensible people knew they had built a bogus economy on a bubble, yet he and his party got over 40% of the vote off the electorate in 2007.
As many often say "we get the politicans we deserve".

shedweller · 23-01-2014 04:49PM

So when will we get up off our holes and demand that this cronyism end and there be transparency with everything regarding the use of our taxes?

Irish Steve · 23-01-2014 09:04PM

It needs to end NOW.

Just been looking at some information on Rehab. They have a deficit in their pension fund of over 32 Million, and are still paying defined benefit pensions to their people.

I am sick to the back teeth of reading and seeing more and more evidence of fat cat abuse, snouts in troughs, call it whatever you like, excessive payments to people in high places, the only reason being their association to the Golden Circle that has so much of the core of Irish Society in it's grip.

strobe · 23-01-2014 11:58PM

Could someone clear a couple of things up for me?

Is the 10,000 profit before or after the 4 million the government gave them?

Is the amount they have actually expended in charitable stuff 10,000 or 4,010,000?

Or a third number? What third number if so?

Please forgive my inability to maths. I'm only small.

Menas · 24-01-2014 10:44AM

strobe wrote: »

Could someone clear a couple of things up for me?

Is the 10,000 profit before or after the 4 million the government gave them?

Is the amount they have actually expended in charitable stuff 10,000 or 4,010,000?

Or a third number? What third number if so?

Please forgive my inability to maths. I'm only small.

The sold 4,000,000 worth of scratch cards. Admin and prizes took 3,990,000 from this. Leaves them with 10,000 profit.
The 10k is the profit on their own sales of scratchcards.
The government then match the sales figure. So rehab are no 4,010,000 in profit. This is the money that goes to provision of their services.

jmayo · 24-01-2014 10:57AM

deandean wrote: »

That Angela Kearns has some neck.

That appears to be the primary qualification necessary for some of these public (and banking/insurance) chief executive roles.
Oh and the secondary most important one is connections.

Boombastic · 24-01-2014 12:29PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545214/Wolf-Of-Wall-Street-comes-China-staff-receive-200k-bonuses-cash-bizarre-payday-party-Henan-province.html

This bizarre bonus payday included uniformed hostesses to hand out the armfuls of cash to the managers at the land development firm, and the staff themselves were dancing across the stage as their names were called, and they were handed their bonus.

They might be adopting chinese work practices...after all there doesn't seem to be enough wood in Ireland to make coffins

walrusgumble · 24-01-2014 01:18PM

IvaBigWun wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0121/499312-rehab-scratch-card-sales/

It would seem that charity CEOs are the new corrupt politicians

The Phoenix Paper have been reporting on Kearns and Co's salary for well over 1 year. The sheanagians does NOT stop at sctrach cards! Try the coffin business.

I am shocked how the limelight is only turning on Rehab now.,

strobe · 24-01-2014 07:22PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

The sold 4,000,000 worth of scratch cards. Admin and prizes took 3,990,000 from this. Leaves them with 10,000 profit.
The 10k is the profit on their own sales of scratchcards.
The government then match the sales figure. So rehab are no 4,010,000 in profit. This is the money that goes to provision of their services.

Thanks man. You seem like a clued in fellow. So could you explain to me why exactly everyone's all pissed off? Pretend like you're speaking to a small child.

norrie rugger · 25-01-2014 03:54PM

Because the minister is trying to claim that they were inefficient, only making 10K profit.
He is conveniently not showing that they made more money the way that they operated

Menas · 25-01-2014 04:21PM

strobe wrote: »

Thanks man. You seem like a clued in fellow. So could you explain to me why exactly everyone's all pissed off? Pretend like you're speaking to a small child.

The way this deal is set up is that rehab just have to maximise sales as this is the figure the government will match.

So no motivation to keep admin costs down.
And no motivation to actually make a profit on your sales as the real 'profit' comes from the government matching their sales figures.

Phoebas · 25-01-2014 04:39PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

Because the minister is trying to claim that they were inefficient, only making 10K profit.
He is conveniently not showing that they made more money the way that they operated

The state subvention is due to come to an end in the next couple of years, so the minister is right to criticise Rehab because in chasing the subvention, they've destroyed their lottery business.

norrie rugger · 25-01-2014 04:52PM

No; the minister is using the current anger, towards CRC and charities, to further his agenda

Phoebas · 25-01-2014 05:14PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

No; the minister is using the current anger, towards CRC and charities, to further his agenda

What agenda is that and what is the minister doing to further it?

EyeSight · 25-01-2014 05:14PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

No; the minister is using the current anger, towards CRC and charities, to further his agenda

What agenda? They were making no effort to profit because they just wanted government grant money. Any business taking in 4 million and only making 10,000 profit is silly. If this was an actual business, with no government intervention, then the investors would be furious!
Does a charities CEO need a bankers CEO salary?

norrie rugger · 25-01-2014 05:31PM

The agenda was to make the board look incompetent and not show how shrewd they were in playing the game. The selling of high numbers of tickets was their best way of making money, not the profit made per ticket.
They could have made a huge profit on tickets but have been worse off, based on ticket sales dropping.

Now tell me honestly, if you were told
1. Sell 10 tickets and make €1 profit and I will give you €20

or

2. Sell 10 tickets and make €10 profit and I will give you €5

Which option would you choose??

And I think that the CEO is a <snip> of the highest order but that is neither hear nor there. The minister is trying to massage the message, in his favour.

Phoebas · 25-01-2014 05:39PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

The agenda was to make the board look incompetent and not show how shrewd they were in playing the game. The selling of high numbers of tickets was their best way of making money, not the profit made per ticket.
They could have made a huge profit on tickets but have been worse off, based on ticket sales dropping.

Now tell me honestly, if you were told
1. Sell 10 tickets and make €1 profit and I will give you €20

or

2. Sell 10 tickets and make €10 profit and I will give you €5

Which option would you choose??

And I think that the CEO is a <snip> of the highest order but that is neither hear nor there. The minister is trying to massage the message, in his favour.

Those options aren't really reflective of the options that Rehab had. Are you massaging the figures to further your own agenda?

Tell me, why do you think the minister wants the board to look incompetent?

norrie rugger · 25-01-2014 05:45PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Those options aren't really reflective of the options that Rehab had.

If they are not reflective, could you please describe what the options were; rather than just dismissing them without an explanation?
(I would honestly like to know, as I am basing what I am saying on my understanding. I have no preciousness around being corrected)

€4m Rehab scratch card sales yielded just €9,452 profit in 2010

Comments