OK, so you're an atheist. What next?

Quatermain · 23-01-2014 12:14AM

If the choice is between "ask thin air for aid in a perilous situation" or "get behind several feet of solid rock and sandbags", I should think the obvious choice is fairly clear.

And if your god helps those who helps themselves, he was pretty damn uncaring about the plight of the poor German soldiers during WW1, who went into action with belt buckles inscribed "Gott Mitt Uns", or "God is with us", hence the pejorative term "huns". The Germans, by the by, lost. And lost hard.

Sarky · 23-01-2014 12:16AM

You're as much a scientist as I am a Seventh Day Adventist, J C. Every single time you open your mouth on a science topic, you show a level of scientific cluelessness that would embarrass a child.

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:17AM

obplayer wrote: »

Who 'reliably informed you' may I ask? How many people have you spoken to who have been in foxholes?

I ask the question again and also why do you make such definite and clear claims and then refuse to provide backup evidence? Is this what you were taught to do in Bible class?

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:19AM

J C wrote: »

If I was terrified of new ideas I wouldn't have become a scientist.
There is a difference between being open to new ideas ... and blindly accepting every 'ropey' invalid new idea that comes along.:)

I asked you in another forum where you studied for your scientific qualifications; I ask again. Are you going to refuse to answer again?

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:23AM

Quatermain wrote: »

If the choice is between "ask thin air for aid in a perilous situation" or "get behind several feet of solid rock and sandbags", I should think the obvious choice is fairly clear.

And if your god helps those who helps themselves, he was pretty damn uncaring about the plight of the poor German soldiers during WW1, who went into action with belt buckles inscribed "Gott Mitt Uns", or "God is with us", hence the pejorative term "huns". The Germans, by the by, lost. And lost hard.

Both wars actually. And they lost both (J C are you listening?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

J C · 23-01-2014 12:24AM

Quatermain wrote: »

If the choice is between "ask thin air for aid in a perilous situation" or "get behind several feet of solid rock and sandbags", I should think the obvious choice is fairly clear.

Why not do both?

Quatermain wrote: »

And if your god helps those who helps themselves, he was pretty damn uncaring about the plight of the poor German soldiers during WW1, who went into action with belt buckles inscribed "Gott Mitt Uns", or "God is with us", hence the pejorative term "huns". The Germans, by the by, lost. And lost hard.

... I think both sides lost ... and lost hard, in WWI.

... perhaps God decided to do help neither side in WWI.:)

... and TBH I wouldn't blame Him, if He did.:)

Doctor Strange · 23-01-2014 12:24AM

J C wrote: »

If I was terrified of new ideas I wouldn't have become a scientist.

Of all the things you post, this really comes across as the most unbelievable.

TheChizler · 23-01-2014 12:26AM

J C wrote: »

If I was terrified of new ideas I wouldn't have become a scientist.
There is a difference between being open to new ideas ... and blindly accepting every 'ropey' invalid new idea that comes along.:)

Sarky wrote: »

You're as much a scientist as I am a Seventh Day Adventist, J C. Every single time you open your mouth on a science topic, you show a level of scientific cluelessness that would embarrass a child.

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obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:28AM

J C wrote: »

Why not do both?

... perhaps God decided to do help neither side in WWI.:)

.:)

And in WWII where the Wermacht had the same slogan?

Quatermain · 23-01-2014 12:30AM

J C wrote: »

Why not do both?

Oh? So you admit that speaking to nothing is a valid combat strategy?

... I think both sides lost ... and lost hard, in WWI.

... perhaps God decided to do help neither side in WWI.:)

... and TBH I wouldn't blame Him, if He did.:)

And so you look back, smiling, at the still-raw memory of hundreds of thousands of helpless men who died screaming from mustard gas or shrapnel? Those men who probably did call out in futile prayer with their final breaths? You wouldn't blame your deity for not standing in and ending it all? For putting a finish to the slaughter and death?

That's fairly despicable thinking, alright.

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:31AM

Sarky wrote: »

You're as much a scientist as I am a Seventh Day Adventist, J C. Every single time you open your mouth on a science topic, you show a level of scientific cluelessness that would embarrass a child.

And a dim child at that, and the fact that he steadfastly refuses to discuss where he got his qualifications tells us even more.

moc moc a moc · 23-01-2014 12:32AM

J C wrote: »

if one's religion (or indeed irreligion) needs to be protected from questioning and fair comment ... it's not much of a religion (or indeed irreligion).

I'm not worried about fair comment, and I welcome intelligent debate, but as far as I can see, you appear to only be here to stir up trouble for kicks (the definition of trolling).

If the equivalent kind of agenda-pushing fanaticism isn't welcome on the religious forums, I don't see why it should be allowed to take up space here.

J C · 23-01-2014 12:33AM

obplayer wrote: »

I ask the question again and also why do you make such definite and clear claims and then refuse to provide backup evidence? Is this what you were taught to do in Bible class?

I've spoken to quite a few ex-military types who are self-professed Atheists ... and they have confirmed to me that they did pray (and were quite superstituous) when in active service under enemy fire.

Could be some kind of 'mind over matter' or 'positive thinking' kind of stuff, for all I know.

In addition, it is a well known phrase, with undoubtedly some degree of truth to it that 'there are no Atheists in foxholes' ... it possibly comes from the fact that most people psych themselves up and try to improve their luck in situations of extremis.

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:40AM

J C wrote: »

I've spoken to quite a few ex-military types who are self-professed Atheists ... and they have confirmed to me that they did pray (and were quite superstituous) when in active service under enemy fire.

Could be some kind of 'mind over matter' or 'positive thinking' kind of stuff, for all I know.

In addition, it is a well known phrase, with undoubtedly some degree of truth to it that 'there are no Atheists in foxholes' ... it possibly comes from the fact that most people psych themselves up and try to improve their luck in situations of extremis.

So when they calmed down, counted the bodies and realised that God had helped nobody, they became Atheists. Hardly an advertisement for your cult.

As for the second highlighted quote it simply means that they were frightened, no difference to coming round a bend too fast and thinking 'oh sh1t!' when you see a truck on your side of the road.

J C · 23-01-2014 12:41AM

Quatermain wrote: »

O
And so you look back, smiling, at the still-raw memory of hundreds of thousands of helpless men who died screaming from mustard gas or shrapnel? Those men who probably did call out in futile prayer with their final breaths? You wouldn't blame your deity for not standing in and ending it all? For putting a finish to the slaughter and death?

That's fairly despicable thinking, alright.

I think the memories should not be very 'raw' given the fact that almost 100 years have passed since WWI.

If we don't smile we often cry ... and certainly WWI was one great monumental (and totally needless) disaster for a whole generation of young men throughout Europe.

God allows us the freedom to see our folly through ... and I do think that faced with people on both sides 'using' God for their own nefarious ends ... if I were God ... I'd simply let them at it, if that was what they wanted to do.

Anything else would be expecting God to abandon His doctrine of free will.

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:42AM

moc moc a moc wrote: »

I'm not worried about fair comment, and I welcome intelligent debate, but as far as I can see, you appear to only be here to stir up trouble for kicks (the definition of trolling).

If the equivalent kind of agenda-pushing fanaticism isn't welcome on the religious forums, I don't see why it should be allowed to take up space here.

Because we can answer with reason and logic and this is exactly the kind of debate we need to have otherwise the religious will simply continue to indoctrinate whoever they can.

J C · 23-01-2014 12:45AM

obplayer wrote: »

So when they calmed down, counted the bodies and realised that God had helped nobody, they became Atheists. Hardly an advertisement for your cult.

They were Atheists before and after their military experience.

obplayer wrote: »

As for the second highlighted quote it simply means that they were frightened, no difference to coming round a bend too fast and thinking 'oh sh1t!' when you see a truck on your side of the road.

They probably were frightened ... thus the phrase 'there are no atheists in foxholes' probably arose because they were frightened out of their minds and at their wits end.

J C · 23-01-2014 12:49AM

obplayer wrote: »

Because we can answer with reason and logic and this is exactly the kind of debate we need to have otherwise the religious will simply continue to indoctrinate whoever they can.

Indoctrination isn't confined to religions ... this is one thing that Atheists can also do ... even though they don't believe in God.:)

... and if Secularists mean what they say when they say they welcome diversity of opinion and questioning of ideas ... then surely they must welcome questioning of their own ideas ... otherwise they are little better than a 'latter day' version of the Medieval Church ... which also welcomed and indeed promoted, the questioning of every idea ... except its own ideas.

... so guys ... do you truly welcome questioning of all ideas ... or is it only ideas with which ye disagree with ... that you will allow to be questioned?

... and the rest is some kind of Atheist equivalent of unquestioned 'Holy Writ'??

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:50AM

J C wrote: »

They were Atheists before and after their military experience.

They probably were frightened ... thus the phrase 'there are no atheists in foxholes' (probably arose because they are frightened out of their minds and at their wits end).

And in what way does this advance your argument for religion? Are you arguing that because people who are terribly frightened do not behave rationally that therefore your God must exist? Do you ever think before posting?

I am going to bed.

Quatermain · 23-01-2014 12:51AM

J C wrote: »

I think the memories should not be very 'raw' given the fact that almost 100 years have passed since WWI.

If we don't smile we often cry ... and certainly WWI was one great monumental (and totally needless) disaster for a whole generation of young men throughout Europe.

God allows us the freedom to see our folly through ... and I do think that faced with people on both sides 'using' God for their own nefarious ends ... if I were God ... I'd simply let them at it, if that was what they wanted to do.

Anything else would be expecting God to abandon His doctrine of free will.

Given the amount of coverage it's attracting, and the fact that it's approaching the centennial, a lot is being dredged up. My ancestors fought and died in the Somme, so forgive me if I take this a little more keenly than you clearly do.

"If we don't smile we cry" indeed. Even Blackadder had a better grasp of the Great War than you clearly do. It was butchery, plain and simple, and what you have basically said is that the faithful and the faithless died equally easily, because your deity turned his back. So why bother to have faith on a battlefield when you're just going to get shot as easily as the next fellow over?

Your little credo of "god helps those" did not work, because you yourself have just claimed that your god helped nobody. He just left them all to die. And people wonder why I don't believe...

obplayer · 23-01-2014 12:53AM

obplayer wrote: »

And in what way does this advance your argument for religion? Are you arguing that because people who are terribly frightened do not behave rationally that therefore your God must exist. Do you ever think before posting?

I am going to bed.

But one last post before I do, can I hope to see evidence of your 'scientific qualifications' when I next log on? Or are you just a little fibber then?

Doctor Strange · 23-01-2014 12:58AM

obplayer wrote: »

But one last post before I do, can I hope to see evidence of your 'scientific qualifications' when I next log on? Or are you just a little fibber then?

He collected tokens of cereal boxes and sent away for "My First Lab" most likely.

J C · 23-01-2014 01:03AM

wrote:

Originally Posted by moc moc a moc View Post
I'm not worried about fair comment, and I welcome intelligent debate, but as far as I can see, you appear to only be here to stir up trouble for kicks (the definition of trolling).

'Stirring up trouble' was also the prime reason for the inquisition condemning heretics.

'Better to not question Mother Church ... and stir up trouble Mr Gallileo Sir'!!!!:)

'Better to not question Atheists on the A & A ... and stir up trouble Mr J C'!!!

Same stuff ... different century!!!

J C · 23-01-2014 01:11AM

Quatermain wrote: »

Given the amount of coverage it's attracting, and the fact that it's approaching the centennial, a lot is being dredged up. My ancestors fought and died in the Somme, so forgive me if I take this a little more keenly than you clearly do.

"If we don't smile we cry" indeed. Even Blackadder had a better grasp of the Great War than you clearly do. It was butchery, plain and simple, and what you have basically said is that the faithful and the faithless died equally easily, because your deity turned his back. So why bother to have faith on a battlefield when you're just going to get shot as easily as the next fellow over?

Your little credo of "god helps those" did not work, because you yourself have just claimed that your god helped nobody. He just left them all to die. And people wonder why I don't believe...

I too had relatives in military service so you don't have a monopoly on grief.

I said that God most likely favoured neither side in WWI ... but I have no doubt that many individuals (on both sides) believed that they came through particular battles (relatively) unscathed, because of Divine intervention ... and I wouldn't doubt that this actually happened.

You may well put it down to wishful thinking on their part ... and that is something that Atheists can do ... because they don't believe in God.:)

smacl · 23-01-2014 07:23AM

Sarky wrote: »

You're as much a scientist as I am a Seventh Day Adventist, J C. Every single time you open your mouth on a science topic, you show a level of scientific cluelessness that would embarrass a child.

When you prefix words like scientist with words like Christian, friend with imaginary, or story with fairy, they take on a whole meaning.

bumper234 · 23-01-2014 08:00AM

J C wrote: »

I've spoken to quite a few ex-military types who are self-professed Atheists ... and they have confirmed to me that they did pray (and were quite superstituous) when in active service under enemy fire.

Could be some kind of 'mind over matter' or 'positive thinking' kind of stuff, for all I know.

In addition, it is a well known phrase, with undoubtedly some degree of truth to it that 'there are no Atheists in foxholes' ... it possibly comes from the fact that most people psych themselves up and try to improve their luck in situations of extremis.

I have been in the military,

I have been in combat situations,

I have NEVER seen or know of ANY soldier who has "prayed" while under enemy fire. You are usually to pepped up on fear/adrenaline to think of anything other than shoot shoot shoot.

J C · 23-01-2014 08:03AM

smacl wrote: »

When you prefix words like scientist with words like Christian, friend with imaginary, or story with fairy, they take on a whole meaning.

Scientists who are Christians (or indeed Creationists) are just as eminently qualified ... and just as capable of doing an outstanding job, as Scientists who are Atheists.

... and the appliance of science and logic isn't something unique to Atheists ... just because they don't believe in God.:)

professore · 23-01-2014 08:17AM

J C wrote: »

I too had relatives in military service so you don't have a monopoly on grief.

I said that God most likely favoured neither side in WWI ... but I have no doubt that many individuals (on both sides) believed that they came through particular battles (relatively) unscathed, because of Divine intervention ... and I wouldn't doubt that this actually happened.

You may well put it down to wishful thinking on their part ... and that is something that Atheists can do ... because they don't believe in God.:)

If you are a good Christian and go to heaven when you die, why would god save you? Surely that's a punishment?

J C · 23-01-2014 08:31AM

bumper234 wrote: »

I have been in the military,

I have been in combat situations,

I have NEVER seen or know of ANY soldier who has "prayed" while under enemy fire. You are usually to pepped up on fear/adrenaline to think of anything other than shoot shoot shoot.

... I accept that this was your experience ... when under imminent danger from 'incoming' ... but in the quiet before the action starts, I am told that (at least some) Atheists do 'pray' ... and certainly are deeply superstituous ... a feature that they retain to this day.
They explain their superstituousness on the basis that 'mind over matter' can have effects ... and I happen to agree with them ... but for very different reasons!!!:)

J C · 23-01-2014 08:34AM

professore wrote: »

If you are a good Christian and go to heaven when you die, why would god save you? Surely that's a punishment?

Why would it be a 'punishment' ... when Heaven is Paradise ... and the alternative is ... er ... Hell?

BTW, there is no such thing as a 'good' Christian ... just Saved and un-Saved ones.

OK, so you're an atheist. What next?

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