Extreme radical "feminists" suffering sexual oppression unto them

Fukuyama · 22-01-2014 02:41PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

^^^

Cynically I think the answer is because if he actually comes out and says BDSM is harmful and should be banned people would be on him like a ton of bricks, because it has an associated sub culture attached to it and banning something associated with a sub-culture has the reek of Facism too it.

The power dynamic point especially when we're talking about pornography rather than BDSM in real life to the viewer would appear equally skewed as I pointed out yesterday.
And as he has admitted himself the actual actions may be harsher.

So you think I believe in banning something, despite the fact that I said I'm against banning anything as a) never before has banning ANYTHING actually worked and

I think censorship is a slippary slope for governments to put a foot on. If you want to tell yourself that I'm secretly in favour of censorship, then go ahead.

As The Corithian and yourself have pointed out, my opinion on BDSM and morality of porn might be different to most.

I think, that BDSM is an arrangement where the directing and actual ceremonial practice of it demands that both parties enjoy it. The person being dominated enjoys it, so does the person doing the dominating.

Regular, non-niche porn, contains similar attributes such as hitting, slapping, insulting etc... However, this regular porn is filmed in a manner so as to duplicate everyday sexual encounters. The women are objectified not for sexual pleasure of their own, but for the sole gratification of the male. The studies I've linked to, the only scientific studies presented thus far, along with the TED talks given by sex researchers and neuro-scientists, confirm that this is damaging.

I genuinely don't bring morality into the question. I'm more concerned about wider implications and people damaging their mental health. It's none of my business if people get turned on to people taking dumps on one another or whatever else exists out there.

K-9 · 22-01-2014 02:52PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

^^^

Cynically I think the answer is because if he actually comes out and says BDSM is harmful and should be banned people would be on him like a ton of bricks, because it has an associated sub culture attached to it and banning something associated with a sub-culture has the reek of Facism too it.

Maybe the reason he hasn't come out and just said it is because he doesn't believe it should be banned?

Tbh, I'd be worried about the widespread availability of some of the types of porn on the internet, I don't think that's an unreasonable concern to have, as the Corinthian pointed out debates about porn aren't a new thing and studies are contested.

The problem with debates about it is, it's very hard to have an adult discussion about it without getting shouted from some people who are very libertarian on how the internet should be, and some others who basically because some feminism has issues against it, take the default pro to their anti.

I'm not convinced either way on the issue, it's probably to early to say what effects, if any, the widespread availability of porn has, I'll keep my mind open about it. Same as I'll keep my mind open about people into BDSM or whatever!

I wouldn't want to be like the poster earlier who appeared brainwashed by widespread feminist statistics and agendas that it seemed incomprehensible that mens issues are often ignored.

GalwayGuy2 · 22-01-2014 02:55PM

"B**ch gets her tight teen pussy f**ked"
"Awesome 3D Gangbang"
"Tatooed B*tch Compilation"

Swear word are natural taboos so men and women will both be drawn to them. Rather than implying 'violence' they could just imply 'aggresive' or 'rough' and consensual sex.

Gangbang doesn't equal gangrape. Check it out on Wikipedia. It started in the BDSM sphere now it's just an orgy with many men and one women. And, apparently it's quite a common fantasy. I am still speaking of the consensual variety.

Just to say, the top stories in literotica are all incest.

I don't particularly want to go into those stories, but they are the top ones of all time.

Out of curiosity, what's with the incest thing?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 22-01-2014 02:57PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's with the incest thing?

whole lot of sexy brothers and sisters

Dravokivich · 22-01-2014 02:58PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

Are you arguing that teens don't learn about sexuality, gender, beauty and sex from porn?

I'm arguing that they aren't going to perceive that everything which happens in porn is default for sex.

Dean0088 wrote: »

I am arguing that they DO. If I mixed up your point or took it the wrong way, my apologies.

But my point is that teens and young adults are viewing porn, and its impact is a lot more than just viewing big boobs and blonde hair as an ideal in women. It is extremely powerful and influences how they view their own gender, the opposite gender, sex, beauty and intimacy.

The last part of your comment has issues regularly sold off as low self esteem and being socially inept. If porn is to be seen as a catalyst for it, it's only doing it against something that was lurking there already.

Fukuyama · 22-01-2014 03:03PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Swear word are natural taboos so men and women will both be drawn to them. Rather than implying 'violence' they could just imply 'aggresive' or 'rough' and consensual sex.

Gangbang doesn't equal gangrape. Check it out on Wikipedia. It started in the BDSM sphere now it's just an orgy with many men and one women. And, apparently it's quite a common fantasy. I am still speaking of the consensual variety.

Just to say, the top stories in literotica are all incest.

I don't particularly want to go into those stories, but they are the top ones of all time.

Out of curiosity, what's with the incest thing?

Orgeys or gangbangs are fine - but why do all the videos listed under these titles portray the women as less then enthusiastic players, insult them and handle them aggressively? I can't imagine female participants in a real orgy being too happy with being called a slut or forced onto all fours.

Dravokivich · 22-01-2014 03:06PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

Orgeys or gangbangs are fine - but why do all the videos listed under these titles portray the women as less then enthusiastic players, insult them and handle them aggressively? I can't imagine female participants in a real orgy being too happy with being called a slut or forced onto all fours.

I've only seen something like that in a few US vids and it seems to be more so playing to stereotypes, then actually being serious about it.

Look up German/Brit/EU gangbangs and they aren't like that at all.

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 03:06PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But I don't think people are saying watching extreme porn will turn someone into a sexual deviant, all they're saying is that the depictions are anything but healthy, or even experimental, sexuality... an opinion that they are entitled to express.
Asking questions about something is not the same as demanding it be banned (that certainly wouldn't be the answer; can you imagine if that stuff went underground... :eek:).

Actually suggesting that it will turn people into sexual deviants and that being antisocial, the implication being that it should be thus banned, has been made repeatedly by posters here.

That people won't admit the problem with the above just because it might look like they're caving in to feminism (it is hardly just a feminist issue, by a long shot)/just because they watch it... is pretty depressing really.

Now you're just projecting your own prejudices onto the motivations of others. You could just as easily argue that it's because people don't want to cave into religious groups.

I don't have a problem with debating the issue, but there's actually not much debate going on. The thesis is that certain types of pornography are bad for society, presumably because they would encourage others to act in an antisocial behaviour. Yet it took a dozen pages of such claims before even the fist link to any evidence of this was presented.

The reality is that this discussion has, on one side at least, been largely composed of moral outrage (known as 'humane' by some). It reminds me of simelar discussions on the dangers of D&D in the 1980's.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's with the incest thing?

Taboo. A lot of human sexuality seems to be linked to taboos. The more sexually repressive the society, the kinkier the sex - pornography has been around for thousands of years, but it was the Victorians who first learned to mass produce it.

That there is little campaigning against incest literature probably returns us to the original topic of this thread. Pornographic literature targets a female market; religious groups will still speak out against it, but feminists won't, as it would go against the constituency they represent.

It's easy to take the moral high ground when you don't lose anything by doing so. When you do, then you'll tend to find a lot of the same moralists go silent.

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 03:09PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

Orgeys or gangbangs are fine - but why do all the videos listed under these titles portray the women as less then enthusiastic players, insult them and handle them aggressively?

Probably for the same reasons that sex lines exist where people are willing to pay money to have someone talk obscenely and aggressively to them.

Femme_Fatale · 22-01-2014 03:10PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Swear word are natural taboos

Yeh I'm talking about the "tight teen pussy" thing?

And the way any female is referred to as a "bitch" (the fashion of replacing girl/chick/lady/whatever with bitch is really unnecessary).

Femme_Fatale · 22-01-2014 03:12PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now you're just projecting your own prejudices onto the motivations of others. You could just as easily argue that it's because people don't want to cave into religious groups.

Well it is a thread about feminism, not religion. Second time there's a presumption of projecting from you.
Why else would people not admit/acknowledge and dismiss valid concerns relating to the depictions in hardcore porn/the testimonies of those who have worked in the industry?

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 03:14PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And the way any female is referred to as a "bitch" (the fashion of replacing girl/chick/lady/whatever with bitch is really unnecessary).

Couple having sex...

Her: Talk dirty to me, you &*$%£^!!!

Him: I can't - to devalue you, would devalue our love-making.

Femme_Fatale · 22-01-2014 03:16PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Couple having sex...

Her: Talk dirty to me, you &*$%£^!!!

Him: I can't - to devalue you, would devalue our love-making.

Yeh because a couple is really the same thing as the messages on a website.

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 03:18PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Well it is a thread about feminism, not religion. Second time there's a presumption of projecting from you.

Let's be honest, it stopped being about feminism a while back (although I may have reintroduced it again).

Why else would people not admit/acknowledge and dismiss valid concerns relating to the depictions in hardcore porn/the testimonies of those who have worked in the industry?

There's actually not been any valid claims, only claims. A lot of the problem is that people have been stating certain things to be true and not backing them up. Additionally, there's confusion on what is being claimed; is BDSM good or bad, for example?

Personally what I'm rejecting is a lot of emotional, sensational nonsense. If people want to have a debate on vaid claims, no problem.

K-9 · 22-01-2014 03:18PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually suggesting that it will turn people into sexual deviants and that being antisocial, the implication being that it should be thus banned, has been made repeatedly by posters here.

That's the thing, you are implying something, despite repeated denials by posters. That leads to misrepresentation of their opinion.

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 03:21PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh because a couple is really the same thing as the messages on a website.

Actually the whole point of pornography is to simulate the real thing for the purposes of sexual stimulation.

22-01-2014 03:25PM

B0jangles wrote: »

In the kind of porn currently under discussion, the target market is straight men, the person being dominated is almost invariably a woman. The viewer generally is expected to see himself is the role of the guy doing all the dominating.

You keep saying that but I wonder what the evidence is. I don't know any of my male friends being into that (and we've told each other things way more embarrassing than that IMO) yet I know 2 qomen who are into it.

If people do attempt to recreate in real life what they see onscreen/have read about, I think we can agree that it is more dangerous for someone to expect to be able to be rough with an unsuspecting partner than for a person to expect a partner will be rough with them.

Pretty bit if.

For comparison, have a look at some gay male porn; target market is still men but the power dynamics and terminology are almost completely different

Top/Bottom suggests a pretty strong power dynamic to me.

Dean0088 wrote: »

Gay porn is actually an interesting one in terms of this subject. The majority of gay porn actors are straight as arrows. They just get paid more for it. The Date My Pornstar actually went into a bit of detail on the gay porn industry as one of the participants was gay. Most of the anal sex is faked because most guys refuse to do it and the directors have no choice but to fake it.

How?

You might wonder why the same degrading actions aren't depicted in it. I reckon it's because most men entering porn are doing so because they actually want to and are in a better position mentally. Just from watching documentaries and doing a little reading, it seems like the guys would tell a director to go fcuk himself if they proposed some of the stuff that the girls are pushed into.

How does this work? The guys are mainly straight but are doing gay porn. This shows they're in a better mental-state than the women who enter porn?
From the odd mis-labelled title I really don't buy your argument.

The same documentary showed porn producers actively going after girls who were clearly way out of their depth and doing it because they needed money.

One documentary, one set of producers.

The funny thing is that guys are actually more in demand than girls in terms of porn actors. Although most lads would say they'd love the job, it seems that it's a lot harder to get a guy on camera than it is a girl. Welcome to LA.

For gay or straight porn?

GalwayGuy2 · 22-01-2014 03:26PM

Yeh I'm talking about the "tight teen pussy" thing?

Really? I'm actually surprised about that.

Age play is quite a common fantasy. I seem to be saying that a lot today, but that probably is one of the most common fantasise among both men and women.

Or is it the tight comment on the primarily genitalia ? Tightness is most probably more of a fantasy for men than women, but that could be biological rather than psychological. And, we're really talking about the dangers of psychological rather than biological.

Or is it all of the elements together?

Fukuyama · 22-01-2014 03:34PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Really? I'm actually surprised about that.

Age play is quite a common fantasy. I seem to be saying that a lot today, but that probably is one of the most common fantasise among both men and women.

Or is it the tight comment on the primarily genitalia ? Tightness is most probably more of a fantasy for men than women, but that could be biological rather than psychological. And, we're really talking about the dangers of psychological rather than biological.

Or is it all of the elements together?

I think it was more the "destroyed" part.

22-01-2014 03:50PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think it was more the "destroyed" part.

Things don't always mean the same thing depending on context. "I'd wreck her", "I'd destroy her", crude, perhaps crass, not meant to be taken literally the vast, vast majority of the time.

enfant terrible · 22-01-2014 03:56PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

Are you arguing that teens don't learn about sexuality, gender, beauty and sex from porn?

But my point is that teens and young adults are viewing porn, and its impact is a lot more than just viewing big boobs and blonde hair as an ideal in women. It is extremely powerful and influences how they view their own gender, the opposite gender, sex, beauty and intimacy.

How did the "big boobs and blonde hair" porn you watched in the 90's as a teen, effect you when you then had sex with real women as an adult?

Were less attracted to women with smaller boobs and dark hair?

Links234 · 22-01-2014 03:58PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

whole lot of sexy brothers and sisters

I totally read that in Jefferson Twilight's voice :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2NOQsVD9Yk

Fukuyama · 22-01-2014 04:58PM

enfant terrible wrote: »

How did the "big boobs and blonde hair" porn you watched in the 90's as a teen, effect you when you then had sex with real women as an adult?

Were less attracted to women with smaller boobs and dark hair?

I was a teenager until a few years ago! :P However, my family home only had dial up until 2006 ( :eek: ) and a communal PC so.... Porn was mostly small pictures or a copy of Red Line car magazine that the typical girls on the bonnet of some suped up sh1tbox car.

I dont think it effects me. And the type of women in it are now pretty much the opposite of what turns me on - they're too fake looking.

22-01-2014 05:20PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I dont think it effects me. And the type of women in it are now pretty much the opposite of what turns me on - they're too fake looking.

Really depends what you're looking for. Ages since I've seen big round fake diddies.

Femme_Fatale · 22-01-2014 05:28PM

Going on about destroying tight teen pussy - it can be pretended forever and ever that it's fine, but you wouldn't like it said about your sister/daughter.
And before the extremely dull, unoriginal use of the Helen Lovejoy quote and the sneers at appealing to emotion: what's wrong with sometimes appealing to emotion? It's not irrelevant.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually the whole point of pornography is to simulate the real thing for the purposes of sexual stimulation.

Well some of it... not so much the really violent stuff though; that's more like a serious departure from depicting consensual (even really experimental, out-there) sex.

22-01-2014 05:31PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Going on about destroying tight teen pussy - it can be pretended forever and ever that it's fine, but you wouldn't like it said about your sister/daughter.

Obviously. I wouldn't like to come across gentle, sensuous porn involving my sister or daughter either.

Femme_Fatale · 22-01-2014 05:33PM

I'm referring more to the phrases, like "Destroy bitch's tight pussy" and the claim that this is ok.

22-01-2014 05:35PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I'm referring more to the phrases, like "Destroy bitch's tight pussy" and the claim that this is ok.

Very little about porn is "ok". The titles (usually added by uploaders) are designed to be eye-catching and reflect what more crass people would say in semi-private conversation.

The Corinthian · 22-01-2014 05:35PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Well some of it... not so much the really violent stuff though; that's more like a serious departure from depicting consensual (even really experimental, out-there) sex.

Ohh... I wouldn't jump to conclusions on the violent stuff not existing or being 'real' - I don't even want to recount again what happened the first time a woman demanded that I "hurt" her during sex. I was totally freaked out. People are weird.

I do agree that use of pornography, as with any other vice, should be moderated (not in the Boards meaning of the word), though. Reading some of the posts here, they sound like ex-smokers in a discussion on smoking.

enfant terrible · 22-01-2014 05:39PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I was a teenager until a few years ago! :P However, my family home only had dial up until 2006 ( :eek: ) and a communal PC so.... Porn was mostly small pictures or a copy of Red Line car magazine that the typical girls on the bonnet of some suped up sh1tbox car.

I dont think it effects me. And the type of women in it are now pretty much the opposite of what turns me on - they're too fake looking.

You had a sheltered childhood, I grew up in the 90's and I saw a hell of a lot more than that

Extreme radical "feminists" suffering sexual oppression unto them

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