51yrs old Danish female tourist gang-raped in Indian capital

Wattle · 18-01-2014 11:45AM

smurgen wrote: »

What's the problem with getting the info from documentaries? If anything they'd put less of a spin on the real situation there than a travel guide.it's not as if there's some big conspiracy against india in the western media,if anything.I'd.say india gets off pretty lightly in western media more than say a country like China or Iran which aren't actually all that bad.

Because documentaries the same as news reports are concentrated solely on negative aspects of a culture. You're only getting one side of the story. If someone watched a documentary about Ireland's excessive drinking and street violence and decided not to visit on that basis would you say that that was over the top? As for China and Iran both countries interfere in their people's lives in a brutal repressive manner and their are many negative aspects to their cultures. India is not for everyone. Some people that I was with hated the place but dismissing an entire culture out of hand because of it's negative aspects is very shortsighted.

Femme_Fatale · 18-01-2014 11:57AM

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The USA and the UK (among others) have more reported rapes per capita than India...its just that they use the rape cases of western tourists in faraway lands to take the spotlight away from the rape problem in their own countries.

Who is the "they" that does that? It's hardly a conscious thing.

nc19 · 18-01-2014 11:59AM

You know the best way to avoid getting gang raped in a 3rd world/developing country?

Dont go there

Simples

18-01-2014 12:05PM

Vendettaxx wrote: »

Do Indian women create mass amounts of fake rape claims?

Can an Indian woman claim rape if she has consensual sex while drunk?

Do you not understand that Indian's have a thing called family respect and often don't report rapes since they bring shame to the family?

Valid questions I need answers to.

So much bull.

Worst of all is the bit I bolded. The only person a rape brings shame on is a rapist. Everyone else is an innocent victim.

The fact that some people within some cultures don't see that is a situation perpetuated by people with outdated, sexist, antiquated and downright dangerous views like yours.

bootybouncer · 18-01-2014 12:06PM

nc19 wrote: »

You know the best way to avoid getting gang raped in a 3rd world/developing country?

Dont go there

Simples

agreed i dont know why some of these dora the explorer types get off going to these sandal wearing backward kips

Wattle · 18-01-2014 12:09PM

nc19 wrote: »

You know the best way to avoid getting gang raped in a 3rd world/developing country?

Dont go there

Simples

Or go there with a group and take sensible precautions. Not everybody who goes there gets gang raped :rolleyes:

Howard Juneau · 18-01-2014 12:11PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've been to India, bit of a hole alright. You have a big rich poor divide, basically anything by the sea is a rich place and anything by a river is poor. So you have flocks of poor people go to the big cities, uneducated people that will do anything to get by rape steal etc, victims of circumstances if you will. So nearly everywhere is a kip, especially the tourist places.

Also since It's a former British colony a lot of people can speak English so as you can imagine you have a large amount of beggars scammers and general hassle, much more then you would get in other poor countries.

Some nice things to see but not worth all the hassle in my opinion.

Do anything to get by? "oh I've no job & I'm starving, sure a bit of rape will cure that!"
Don't think thats quite how rape works, it's about power & dominance 95% of the time.

FTA69 · 18-01-2014 12:15PM

Jesus Christ there's some stupid statements being thrown out here. India was where numerous major religions were founded. It's history goes back eons and it was a centre of learning and culture for millennia. How anyone could look at a sunrise in Kerala or the tea gardens in Sylhet or the Sikh temples in the Punjab and then write the place off as "a sh*thole" is beyond me. It is probably one of the most fascinating places on earth and it presents arguably more diversity than any other country in the world; whether in terms of culture, language, scenery, history etc.

I mean for f*ck's sake like. Every country in the world has its problems, and if you think misogyny and gross social inequality is limited to India then you're codding yourself. Yes, there are poor social and economic aspects to India, like every other country, and yes certain parts of the world have issues. However if you can't divorce the average person from all of that then you're narrow-minded to say the least.

And if you can reduce complex societies made of millions of diverse individuals to "it's a kip" then you're just a damn fool to be honest.

Femme_Fatale · 18-01-2014 12:22PM

nc19 wrote: »

You know the best way to avoid getting gang raped in a 3rd world/developing country?

Dont go there

Simples

We got a bad-ass here.
Nah, if people would like to visit these countries they can do so, they should just ensure to be with a group.

Legs.Eleven · 18-01-2014 12:24PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Jesus Christ there's some stupid statements being thrown out here. India was where numerous major religions were founded. It's history goes back eons and it was a centre of learning and culture for millennia. How anyone could look at a sunrise in Kerala or the tea gardens in Sylhet or the Sikh temples in the Punjab and then write the place off as "a sh*thole" is beyond me. It is probably one of the most fascinating places on earth and it presents arguably more diversity than any other country in the world; whether in terms of culture, language, scenery, history etc.

I mean for f*ck's sake like. Every country in the world has its problems, and if you think misogyny and gross social inequality is limited to India then you're codding yourself. Yes, there are poor social and economic aspects to India, like every other country, and yes certain parts of the world have issues. However if you can't divorce the average person from all of that then you're narrow-minded to say the least.

And if you can reduce complex societies made of millions of diverse individuals to "it's a kip" then you're just a damn fool to be honest.

You get the "Ireland is a kip" heads on here too and you have to wonder.

iwantmydinner · 18-01-2014 12:25PM

All I know is, I won't be going there anytime soon. I know enough from my own travels and experiences, as well as those of my friends, to know that while it might have some of the most amazing sights in the world, I'll be quite happy to never cross its borders.

Femme_Fatale · 18-01-2014 12:42PM

bootybouncer wrote: »

agreed i dont know why some of these dora the explorer types get off going to these sandal wearing backward kips

Because they're... not you?
I have absolutely no interest in visiting India either - the bad would outweigh the good, for me personally, but I'd never think others should feel the same way as I do.

There is a romantic notion about India among some westerners though - that it's all yoga and incense and elephant rides and those bejewelled costumes (beautiful and all as that Bollywood stuff is). And then people have gone there and been faced with a massively different reality. One woman I know was working in a family planning/sexual health clinic in Jaipur - her ambition for years, and very well meaning. She was horrified - by the extent of the poverty, the ignorance through lack of even the most basic of basic education, and the atrocious treatment of women.
I know another couple who got off the plane... and got the next flight out.
I know another group of people who opened a cupboard in the place they were staying in, to be greeted by a black rat.
My friend was going out with a a guy from India when she lived in Australia - wonderful guy, fell madly in love with him... then he brought her back to his home, which is in the Punjab, a far more affluent part, and she said it was like paradise: she took pictures of it and put them on Facebook, it was indeed stunning. But... his attitude towards her changed when they were in India, and not in a good way.

It's not right to condemn the entire country/populace of course but it's not right not to acknowledge the extent of the problems either.
It's good to learn in depth about such a place, and if that includes visiting it, so be it.

FTA69 wrote: »

Every country in the world has its problems

I'm sorry to be hostile - normally I'm totally in agreement with everything you say - but this isn't much of an argument. Of course every country has its problems, but they are not all equally bad, by a long shot. Ireland has its problems, but they're not a fraction of the problems you'd find in India.

and if you think misogyny and gross social inequality is limited to India then you're codding yourself.

I don't think anyone has said that, but the above issues are still pretty extreme in India.

Wattle · 18-01-2014 12:52PM

bootybouncer wrote: »

agreed i dont know why some of these dora the explorer types get off going to these sandal wearing backward kips

Because there's pleasure to be had from exploring? I'd be bored out of my tree spending two weeks lying on a beach in some cushy resort. Fine if you want that sort of thing but not everybody is the same.

FTA69 · 18-01-2014 01:12PM

I'm sorry to be hostile - normally I'm totally in agreement with everything you say - but this isn't much of an argument.

Ha, there's nothing wrong with healthy discussion!

Of course every country has its problems, but they are not all equally bad, by a long shot. Ireland has its problems, but they're not a fraction of the problems you'd find in India.

I agree 100%, and I'm not at all trying to trivialise misogyny and inequality in these countries, or pretend that there's no extremes on certain parts of the scale. Similarly I'm not trying to suggest that we should be accepting of the above simply because it happens in the Third World, and that people there somehow aren't deserving of better.

What does gall me though, is the ignorant and blanket statements that immediately write off massive countries with hugely complex societies as "a sh*thole". It's just too simplistic to carry any sort of weight. I work predominantly with women from Bangladesh, (one of the poorest countries in the world with all the problems India has) and they are some of the warmest and most genuine people you could meet. Similarly, I also know a number of Indian feminists who also do sterling work in trying to work within that community to improve the view and treatment of women. Are these not to be considered when we label a place as "sh*t"?

Likewise with the horrific inequality and lack of education; it is important to look at the global economic structures that often perpetuate that as opposed to simply blaming it on local character or custom.

smurgen · 18-01-2014 01:32PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Ha, there's nothing wrong with healthy discussion!

I agree 100%, and I'm not at all trying to trivialise misogyny and inequality in these countries, or pretend that there's no extremes on certain parts of the scale. Similarly I'm not trying to suggest that we should be accepting of the above simply because it happens in the Third World, and that people there somehow aren't deserving of better.

What does gall me though, is the ignorant and blanket statements that immediately write off massive countries with hugely complex societies as "a sh*thole". It's just too simplistic to carry any sort of weight. I work predominantly with women from Bangladesh, (one of the poorest countries in the world with all the problems India has) and they are some of the warmest and most genuine people you could meet. Similarly, I also know a number of Indian feminists who also do sterling work in trying to work within that community to improve the view and treatment of women. Are these not to be considered when we label a place as "sh*t"?

Likewise with the horrific inequality and lack of education; it is important to look at the global economic structures that often perpetuate that as opposed to simply blaming it on local character or custom.

The place itself is a sh1thole but I do not blame the ordinary citizens,I blame the government abd those higher up in society.Indian people are lovely and they've had a rought ride throughout history and even when they emigrate they're subject to racism and exploitation.
The dude I was friends with Manu was from a wealthy family and his father was a doctor.his family moved to Saudi Arabia when he was younger and he said he was subjected to racism by the Saudis on a daily basis.he said racism there towards Indians was rampant and also said that London,were I met him felt like home because no one cared because he was Indian and treated him equally.

The thing that annoys me so much about India is that the higher up classes there don't give a fiddlers fart about the poor.this attitude is.probably a hangover from the times when the British ruled the place and installed the cast system there in a bid to divide and conquer.

The level of poverty in the country is astounding and I can't believe how much people here are down playing it.it's one of the worst humanitarian problems in the entire world and what galls me is that there's alot of resources in the country but the wealth from this isn't trickling down.

I understand that it's a giant country,with diverse social differences and a rich history but I just think that the conditions that people have to put up with there overshadows that.
Have a read of even the wiki article poverty in India and you'll get a feel for how massive the problem is.

Legs.Eleven · 18-01-2014 02:29PM

smurgen wrote: »

The place itself is a sh1thole but I do not blame the ordinary citizens,I blame the government abd those higher up in society.Indian people are lovely and they've had a rought ride throughout history and even when they emigrate they're subject to racism and exploitation.
The dude I was friends with Manu was from a wealthy family and his father was a doctor.his family moved to Saudi Arabia when he was younger and he said he was subjected to racism by the Saudis on a daily basis.he said racism there towards Indians was rampant and also said that London,were I met him felt like home because no one cared because he was Indian and treated him equally.

The thing that annoys me so much about India is that the higher up classes there don't give a fiddlers fart about the poor.this attitude is.probably a hangover from the times when the British ruled the place and installed the cast system there in a bid to divide and conquer.

The level of poverty in the country is astounding and I can't believe how much people here are down playing it.it's one of the worst humanitarian problems in the entire world and what galls me is that there's alot of resources in the country but the wealth from this isn't trickling down.

I understand that it's a giant country,with diverse social differences and a rich history but I just think that the conditions that people have to put up with there overshadows that.
Have a read of even the wiki article poverty in India and you'll get a feel for how massive the problem is.

I understand the extent of the poverty and have read and heard enough about it (and it's probably the main reason I'll never go there) but to even dismiss the good aspects of it (the temples etc.) just because they're old seems unreasonable. Surely you have to acknowledge it must have its good points?

nc19 · 18-01-2014 05:10PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

We got a bad-ass here.

Really cant fathom for the life of me how my post equates to me being a bad ass????

nc19 · 18-01-2014 05:10PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

We got a bad-ass here.

Really cant fathom for the life of me how my post equates to me being a bad ass????

Lou.m · 18-01-2014 06:22PM

kylith wrote: »

A friend of mine was doing some travelling around Asia recently. She was planning to spend a couple of months in India but wasn't too aware of the reports of the reports of rapes; I didn't say anything because I didn't want to scare her but she got out of there within a couple of weeks anyway because she said that there was a really unpleasant, slightly menacing, vibe in the place.

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable there, especially on my own.

Indians have been let down by their govt.

It is not unlike Haiti now. I would wager the number of rapists themselves abused as kids is quite high. No excuses of course.

The Indian caste system has a cast of untouchables SOME not all obviously upperclass bigoted people are literally disgusted by them in the way a homophobe might hate gays.

There is a class that is totally dehumanized and life is literally hell for the impoverished. It is overpopulated and they are left in the slums to be subjected to the wrath of others like them.

Organized crime is rife. Street children are in such numbers that more are on the streets working that in school. They work in sweat shops and there is no way out.

Corporatism has replaced democracy. They have little education and they resent their position and seek to take revenge on the world.

Lack of infrastructure and corruption abounds.

The problems include but go way way beyond misogyny. There is a brutalization of a whole class. They can't take it and have snapped. It is like Dickensian novels. Women and children have low status and cannot defend themselves physically and suffer the worst. But men particularly young men are raped too.

http://globalhopeindia.org/the-reality-of-child-prostitution-in-india/

The facts are approximately 20% of all prostitutes in the red light districts of India are children.

It is often done by their parents in response to poverty. But think about that ....what mindset says hey I am starving hey I know what....I would wager most parents would sell themselves first.

You can't say hey it's prejudiced to say that these people should not be judged. Tradition can be brutal sometimes. And it must be challenged along with financial aid.

http://www.todayonline.com/chinaindia/india/despite-growing-wealth-india-child-prostitution-still-rise

Suchitra, now 20, is from one of hundreds of villages in India where centuries-old tradition dictates that most girls enter into a life of prostitution.

Rising wealth has not reduced the trafficking of girls for sex in the world’s second-most populous nation: The number of child prostitutes is growing and the average recruitment age has dropped to between nine and 12, according to the Delhi-based National Human Rights Commission.

“It is being driven by rising levels of income but also by a change in sexual attitudes and the increasing migration of women to cities.”

It is not just poverty that is driving this.

The growth of underage prostitution in a country whose gross domestic product has risen on average about 8 per cent annually in the past decade is testimony to the treatment of women and the power of caste in the world’s biggest democracy. Whole families from some castes at the bottom rungs of the country’s social hierarchy rely on income from their daughters’ sex work, with fathers and brothers often acting as pimps. The girls often have their virginity auctioned to the highest bidder once they reach puberty.

Suchitra, who is of the Bedia caste, shows how the caste-based system determines access to occupations and social status.

Rooted in religion, the millennia-old structure marginalises certain groups, imprisoning women in a cycle of isolation and abuse.

Many female members of the Bedia community, which numbers about 20,000, say they are treated like outcasts. They cannot marry if they have worked as a prostitute, are refused service in shops, are called “whores” and are greeted with disinterest by the police when one of them is raped.

“Caste remains a defining feature for most Indians,” said Dr Satish Misra, a political analyst at the Observer Research Foundation, a policy group based in New Delhi. “These attitudes bring an enormous cost in terms of a lack of social mobility and lost economic opportunities.”

If you let people be dehumanized they will get preyed upon.

The traffickers often operate with impunity due to poor police enforcement,

Even when they get to school education is poor.

Some 73 per cent of children aged 11 in schools in the state of Rajasthan are unable to subtract and 79 per cent cannot recognise numbers between 10 and 99, according to the 2012 Annual Status of Education Report.

Obviously it is very difficult to lead a normal life after such abuse and the cycle continues.

Wattle · 18-01-2014 09:02PM

smurgen wrote: »

The place itself is a sh1thole but I do not blame the ordinary citizens,I blame the government abd those higher up in society.Indian people are lovely and they've had a rought ride throughout history and even when they emigrate they're subject to racism and exploitation.
The dude I was friends with Manu was from a wealthy family and his father was a doctor.his family moved to Saudi Arabia when he was younger and he said he was subjected to racism by the Saudis on a daily basis.he said racism there towards Indians was rampant and also said that London,were I met him felt like home because no one cared because he was Indian and treated him equally.

The thing that annoys me so much about India is that the higher up classes there don't give a fiddlers fart about the poor.this attitude is.probably a hangover from the times when the British ruled the place and installed the cast system there in a bid to divide and conquer.

The level of poverty in the country is astounding and I can't believe how much people here are down playing it.it's one of the worst humanitarian problems in the entire world and what galls me is that there's alot of resources in the country but the wealth from this isn't trickling down.

I understand that it's a giant country,with diverse social differences and a rich history but I just think that the conditions that people have to put up with there overshadows that.
Have a read of even the wiki article poverty in India and you'll get a feel for how massive the problem is.

I don't think anybody is down playing the level of poverty there. I saw it and it is truly shocking but if you care about the poor in India why would you deny them income from tourist revenue? The amount of money that you give them probably won't hit your pocket too hard but could be a weeks earnings to them. I just don't see how a mass boycott of the country helps ordinary people.

Femme_Fatale · 18-01-2014 09:43PM

Vendettaxx wrote: »

Do Indian women create mass amounts of fake rape claims?

Do any women create "mass amounts" of fake rape claims (apart from in your head)?

smurgen wrote: »

The place itself is a sh1thole

Ah it's a sub-continent. How can you say a sub-continent is a sh1t-hole, even if parts of it are indeed sh1t-holes?

smurgen · 19-01-2014 01:19AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Do any women create "mass amounts" of fake rape claims (apart from in your head)?

Ah it's a sub-continent. How can you say a sub-continent is a sh1t-hole, even if parts of it are indeed sh1t-holes?

In my view it is and I've explained why I consider it to be a sh1thole.what difference does it matter weather it's a sub continent or not?I consider the country in it's current condition to be a dive. Please point out to me the positive aspects of the place?

Femme_Fatale · 19-01-2014 01:21AM

smurgen wrote: »

In my view it is and I've explained why I consider it to be a sh1thole.what difference does it matter weather it's a sub continent or not?I consider the country in it's current condition to be a dive. Please point out to me the positive aspects of the place?

Obviously loads of it is going to be beautiful and the problems aren't in every single corner of it, because it is absolutely massive.
How on earth can you have a view of an entire sub-continent being a certain way without even seeing it...?

I don't want to go to India and I completely acknowledge its problems are off-the-scale, but saying the whole place is a sh1t-hole... wtf?!

bbm1 · 19-01-2014 01:24AM

My boss is Indian and to say she has a naive view of the world is an understatement, when the slums are mentioned she says they choose to live like that, that in fact they are not poor but own land in their home states and move to the slums because they want to live in the city. She is raciest but i wont be silly enough to say that means that all indians are racist and a deep hatred for musliums.

smurgen · 19-01-2014 01:39AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Obviously loads of it is going to be beautiful and the problems aren't in every single corner of it, because it is absolutely massive.
How on earth can you have a view of an entire sub-continent being a certain way without even seeing it...?

I don't want to go to India and I completely acknowledge its problems are off-the-scale, but saying the whole place is a sh1t-hole... wtf?!

Of course not all of it is a dump,what I'm saying is that when weighing up the positive and negative aspects of the place overall I consider it to be a dump.loads of it is going to be beautiful but then again nearly every country in the world has beautiful parts. Do tell me however the positive aspects of the place though because I'm struggling to come up with any after the temples and food.

Femme_Fatale · 19-01-2014 01:43AM

smurgen wrote: »

Do tell me however the positive aspects of the place though because I'm struggling to come up with any after the temples and food.

I just said: obviously lots of it isn't going to be beset by problems.

smurgen · 19-01-2014 02:30AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I just said: obviously lots of it isn't going to be beset by problems.

I would say that most of it is beset by poverty which is the biggest problem there.it seems to be in the cities and rural areas.for me this is a major issue that I can't discount. If you want to be pedantic and point to small areas being nice or beautiful I can understand but I'm talking about the overall impression I get of the state as a whole. 400 million people there are on $1 a day,more than the population of the us. 1.1 bn are on $5 a day or less a day.to me that's a situation that's out of control. This level of poverty is creating massive spin - off problems and in the mean time the only thing the government seems to be preoccupied with is launching probes into space and upgrading the country's military hardware,Jesus wept!

Czarcasm · 19-01-2014 02:42AM

smurgen wrote: »

Of course not all of it is a dump,what I'm saying is that when weighing up the positive and negative aspects of the place overall I consider it to be a dump.loads of it is going to be beautiful but then again nearly every country in the world has beautiful parts. Do tell me however the positive aspects of the place though because I'm struggling to come up with any after the temples and food.

India are well ranked in a number of industries and services (steel and coal production, textiles, tourism, believe it or not! and technology), their contribution to the world of Arts, Entertainment and Culture including Bollywood, they have one of the best education systems in the world, and if history is your thing, well, India is where you want to be... except of course if you still think it's a shìthole because all you see is the poverty and destitution that you're unwilling to do a whole lot about to try and change.

Any country is a shìthole when that's the standard you judge it by because there is poverty, destitution, violence and corruption in every country, but when you talk about a country of over a billion people, try and think about what would Ireland be like if it were 150 times the size and population it is now and you might be able to draw a better comparison between the two countries.

Meh, still a shìthole, right?

smurgen · 19-01-2014 03:22AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

India are well ranked in a number of industries and services (steel and coal production, textiles, tourism, believe it or not! and technology), their contribution to the world of Arts, Entertainment and Culture including Bollywood, they have one of the best education systems in the world, and if history is your thing, well, India is where you want to be... except of course if you still think it's a shìthole because all you see is the poverty and destitution that you're unwilling to do a whole lot about to try and change.

Any country is a shìthole when that's the standard you judge it by because there is poverty, destitution, violence and corruption in every country, but when you talk about a country of over a billion people, try and think about what would Ireland be like if it were 150 times the size and population it is now and you might be able to draw a better comparison between the two countries.

Meh, still a shìthole, right?

I never compared it to Ireland?The education does seem to be excellent but those that make it seem to leave the country en masse. As regards industry they're some of the best in the world as financial services outsourcing but the sh1tty government there chokes the industry with red tape.I know because the company I work for does a lot of work through Mumbai.
the industries you mentioned tho like textiles are rife with exploitation and only a small minority of those in the industries make a livable wage.

As regards the standard I'm judging it by,I'm judging it by international standards.on nearly every measure of social development it comes near the bottom.

As a country they need to end the cast system and begin the impove social mobility. The government could also begin to attract a lot more foreign direct investment if they lowered the amount of red tape associated with setting up businesses there.

51yrs old Danish female tourist gang-raped in Indian capital

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