Pylons

micosoft · 12-01-2014 10:13PM

el pasco wrote: »

You always need a back up supply for wind energy which usually means a thermal power station like oil coal or gas wind engergy only is working about 30% of the time and its hard to predict when it will be windy and for how long so you need back up supply which in most cases means thermal power

Since you can't just fire up a thermal power station in a few seconds you have to have them constantly ticking over to make sure that'll they can kick in when the wind power stops

The best way would probably have wind energy to be stored either by water pump storage or by storing compressed air which can then turn a turbine to make electricity

Or a more simple solution. Upgrade the grid and upgrade links to the single engery market (Ireland & the UK). When the wind blows in Ireland and not in the UK we sell electricity to them. When the wind blows in the UK and not in Ireland we buy from them. Eventually we will have a European supergrid that will balance out wind generation resolving the need for backup. That is ONE of the purposes of Grid 25. Opponents of the grid upgrade don't mention the two way factor.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 10:14PM

el pasco wrote: »

Could you not have pump storage on a small scale using something like a water tower?

What about using highly compressed air?

Micro renewables are a different kettle of fish and if private citizens want to generate their power that way then best of luck to them. Again the costs are high and the outcomes mixed(back up will usually still be needed by mains supply) but at least its someone taking a punt with their own money instead of vested interests inflicting such things on the general public at large with its accociated unnecessary energy sprawl acoross large areas of rural Ireland.

micosoft · 12-01-2014 10:16PM

el pasco wrote: »

Could you not have pump storage on a small scale using something like a water tower?

What about using highly compressed air?

Incredibly expensive for far far too little energy. Only viable in tiny communities like islands. Doing it at scale like Turlough Hill which cost in todays money about 2 Billion for 300Mw that runs for about 6 hours. It has it's place in the generation basket but it's no panacea. Increasing the capacity of the inter-connectors is a more cost effective and sustainable approach.

JRant · 12-01-2014 10:17PM

micosoft wrote: »

Or a more simple solution. Upgrade the grid and upgrade links to the single engery market (Ireland & the UK). When the wind blows in Ireland and not in the UK we sell electricity to them. When the wind blows in the UK and not in Ireland we buy from them. Eventually we will have a European supergrid that will balance out wind generation resolving the need for backup. That is ONE of the purposes of Grid 25. Opponents of the grid upgrade don't mention the two way factor.

Ah now we can't have those dirty Sasnach getting their hands on OUR power

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 10:23PM

micosoft wrote: »

Or a more simple solution. Upgrade the grid and upgrade links to the single engery market (Ireland & the UK). When the wind blows in Ireland and not in the UK we sell electricity to them. When the wind blows in the UK and not in Ireland we buy from them. Eventually we will have a European supergrid that will balance out wind generation resolving the need for backup. That is ONE of the purposes of Grid 25. Opponents of the grid upgrade don't mention the two way factor.

HP pressure weather systems(low wind) that affects Ireland also usually affect the UK and most of Western Europe as was the case earlier this winter and much of the summer. Again the cost factor is enormous with a vast network of extra pylon and turbine infrastructure needed. This also assumes that every government and their public are happy to see picturesque rural areas thrashed by wind generated energy sprawl. As it is opposition to this kind of thing is growing throughout Europe and some countries such as the Czech republic and Poland have turned their back on wind power pretty much completely.

JRant · 12-01-2014 10:32PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

HP pressure weather systems(low wind) that affects Ireland also usually affect the UK and most of Western Europe as was the case earlier this winter and much of the summer. Again the cost factor is enormous with a vast network of extra pylon and turbine infrastructure needed. This also assumes that every government and their public are happy to see picturesque rural areas thrashed by wind generated energy sprawl. As it is opposition to this kind of thing is growing throughout Europe and some countries such as the Czech republic and Poland have turned their back on wind power pretty much completely.

How do you propose we transfer the energy then?

4ookV lines are more efficient and allow a greater flexibilty in the network.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 10:43PM

JRant wrote: »

How do you propose we transfer the energy then?

4ookV lines are more efficient and allow a greater flexibilty in the network.

What power?? - my point is that if governments stop faffing about with wind power we won't require the vast majority of extra pylon infrastructure proposed. We already have an extensive pylon infrastructure in this country that more than serves our needs, if it requires upgrading in the distant future then the existing pylon network can simply be ugraded as it stands without having to drive vast ranks of extra pylons through quiet rural areas.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-01-2014 11:00PM

el pasco wrote: »

You always need a back up supply for wind energy which usually means a thermal power station like oil coal or gas wind engergy only is working about 30% of the time and its hard to predict when it will be windy and for how long so you need back up supply which in most cases means thermal power

Since you can't just fire up a thermal power station in a few seconds you have to have them constantly

You can ramp up a gas turbine from idle in a few seconds. Stopping and starting cause a lot of wear. Idling doesn't and present rules say we need 50% of power from large inertial sources - mostly fossil fuel - so we have plenty of spinning reserve. In fact the open cycle gas turbines are limited to less than 2/3rd's of their peak output specifically so they can ramp up if needed.

If you have ever been on an aeroplane you may be vaguely aware of how gas turbines can ramp up to full power in seconds for take off

Eirgrid publishes wind predictions days in advance. On Thursday the prediction is wind will fall from about 1GW to 500MW during the day. Obviously it will be more accurate closer to the time, but it can be used for pricing and tendering purposes http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/ Even if multiple windfarms go off line for technical reasons that figure won't change too much. With nuclear there is always the chance of a three day outage if a safety alarm trips.

wind prediction reports here
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/reports/

rovoagho wrote: »

We do use pumped storage, at Turloughmore. We just don't have enough of it.

It's unlikely we will get more because of the capital costs involved and the way renewables undercut peak pricing for much of the time. The days when you could rely on selling stored electricity for multiples of the price you bought it are gone. On windy summer days you really have to look at the 75% round travel efficiency levels because you don't get as many units out as you put in.

Turlough hill has been paid for so it'll keep getting used, one thing it can be used for is to reboot the power grid, fossil fuel plants, unlike nuclear, don't have the expense of having spare batteries and generators on site

Re Brown outs and capacity and energy storage and fossil fuel taking hours to cater for wind , For while you have to rely on the inertial of the spinning generators, after this additional reserve power kicks in over 4 stages.

So if the biggest generation source on the grid suddenly goes offline 75% of that capacity should be restored within 5 seconds and 100% within a minute and a half. ( Nuclear needs a LOT of spinning reserve )

Variability of wind power is a non-issue. Any suggestion otherwise is complete FUD.

More system rules - by 2020 they should allow up to 75% wind at any one time. Interruptible load should increase substantially if smart meters were integrated with storage heaters / immersions / space heating / overnight car chargers - demand shedding could be a very fast response.
http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Transmission%20Constraint%20Groups%20Version%201%204%2019July2012.pdf

Operating Reserve Definitions
Delivered By Maintained Until
Primary (POR) 5 seconds 15 seconds
Secondary (SOR) 15 seconds 90 seconds
Tertiary 1 (TOR1) 90 seconds 5 minutes
Tertiary 2 (TOR2) 5 minutes 20 minutes[
...
There must be at least 5 high
inertia machines on-load at all
times in ROI. Required for
dynamic stability
...
Combined MW output of OCGTs
must be less than 489MW (out
of a total of 789MW) in ROI at all
times Required for replacement
reserve
...
This restricts the amount of
Generation in the Cork area to
880MW Required due to
transmission congestion
...
There must be at least one
Moneypoint unit on load at all
times Required to support the
400kV network/QUOTE]Interesting to note that Cork could probably do with some more pylons too.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-01-2014 11:16PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Micro renewables are a different kettle of fish and if private citizens want to generate their power that way then best of luck to them. Again the costs are high and the outcomes mixed(back up will usually still be needed by mains supply) but at least its someone taking a punt with their own money instead of vested interests inflicting such things on the general public at large with its accociated unnecessary energy sprawl acoross large areas of rural Ireland.

Micro renewable ?

Hydro is very limited because most of the country is low lying. Ardnacrusha is on the longest river in the British Isles, drains most of the midlands and provides 85MW at peak output. That's about 2% of evening demand at this time of year. Turlough Hill has a drop of 500m, good luck matching that.

Solar and wind depend on you saving either the standing charge or saving the retail cost of electricity so some inefficiencies can be put up with. For larger customers (and who have calor gas on all the time) CHP means you can get very cheap electricity at a high capital cost because you really need the heat and the electricity is just a byproduct. ( note the biomass , peat and CHP plants combined get more subsidies than wind which is another reason why they can be viable even if you can get closer to the wholesale price )

darkpagandeath · 12-01-2014 11:58PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

You claimed earlier that you read through this thread. If you did you will see that I posted links showing how wind power in places like Germany is associated with rising retail energy bills and CO2 emmisions. The fact that Eirgrid and this government are choosing to ignore such evidence and spend enormous amounts of citizens money on this white elephant should alarm anyone with an ounce of commonsense

Was it not pointed down they closed some nuclear plants and went back to coal/oil odd emissions went up aint it ..

JRant · 13-01-2014 12:07AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

What power?? - my point is that if governments stop faffing about with wind power we won't require the vast majority of extra pylon infrastructure proposed. We already have an extensive pylon infrastructure in this country that more than serves our needs, if it requires upgrading in the distant future then the existing pylon network can simply be ugraded as it stands without having to drive vast ranks of extra pylons through quiet rural areas.

It does require upgrading, hence the Grid25 project.

Zen65 · 13-01-2014 12:11AM

pljudge321 wrote: »

A simple question to all those asserting that the gridwests purpose is to enable renewable energy to be exported out of Ireland. Have you any evidence of this? And how are they planning on exporting this energy, the EWIC and moyle are both a paltry 500MW and are both currently net importers.

Amidst the many rants in this thread, the above stands out as the most thoughtful question. As I understand it Ireland currently imports more electrical energy than it exports. Adding Transmission infrastructure alone cannot reverse this situation, therefore the proposed infrastructure must have some other purpose. Perhaps, as EirGrid have suggested, the new infrastructure would benefit Leinster and Munster by allowing the renewable energy (which is mostly located in the southwest) to have lower-loss and more secure connection to the load which is mainly in Leinster. Both Dublin and Cork have substantial thermal generators, which along with Moneypoint in Clare feed the bulk of the country's needs, but the introduction of a high penetration of wind energy generators has led to congestion on the Transmission system and thereby forced EirGrid to import via the EWIC rather than feed into Leinster from Munster.

That makes sense to me.

Also, why would I doubt EirGrid on this anyway (apart from the fact that I find their PR people to be really bad at their job)? The current Regulatory environment in Ireland has EirGrid owning no Transmission assets, and therefore there is no financial benefit to them in having more infrastructure built. If ESB Networks were the ones pushing for this one might be suspicious, since they earn a small financial return from the construction of assets. EirGrid pretty much gets nothing out of this, except hassle. I'm betting nobody in EirGrid actually enjoys pushing this project as it simply exposes them to vitriol. They push for it, I'm guessing, because they know it's needed. You don't have to like people to accept that they are acting professionally.

On the other hand I do doubt the objectors. I'm tired of objections to infrastructure projects in this country based on scaremongering. The M50, the M3, the N11 at Glen-of-the-Downs, and pretty much every other major road, major gas line, major electricity line, or incinerator faced years of delay from objectors. Mostly these projects do go ahead, years late, at a much higher cost because of the delays, and the predicted disasters do not occur. Not too long ago there was a Transmission line built up to Sligo (400kV or 220kV?) amidst all sorts of claims that tourism would be wrecked by it, kids made ill, etc etc. It's operating away now and in all fairness you hardly see it when you're driving past it.

Our objectors have a fairly poor track record of being right about . . . . well, anything.

One-off housing on the other hand, has wrecked the landscape and made infrastructure planning a nightmare. I don't see too many groups holding marches about that. Funny, no?

The health question about EMF has been pretty much answered as conclusively as it can be, given that it's impossible to prove a negative. The WHO have lost interest in it, having established guidelines on EMF exposure which ensure that no discernible adverse effects will be found. There is no house in Ireland where the EMF from outside the home is remotely comparable to the EMF generated inside the home from the domestic wiring and home appliances. And I'll be the first to admit that pylons are not overly attractive, but in fairness they are also not overly noticeable when they're planned right.

Let's get these things built and be done with it.

Greensleeves · 13-01-2014 11:35AM

The Sunday Independent was awash with pylon stories yesterday and it seems to be generally accepted that the grid upgrade is to facilitate wind energy.

Here's an extract from a piece by John Drennan:

"Nothing epitomised this belief more than one private comment by a government spin doctor that "of course the pylons will be accompanied by windfarms but we can't tell the people that or they would revolt en masse"."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-nimbys-out-in-the-sticks-threaten-to-shatter-political-legacies-29908359.html

micosoft · 13-01-2014 02:36PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

The Sunday Independent was awash with pylon stories yesterday and it seems to be generally accepted that the grid upgrade is to facilitate wind energy.

Here's an extract from a piece by John Drennan:

"Nothing epitomised this belief more than one private comment by a government spin doctor that "of course the pylons will be accompanied by windfarms but we can't tell the people that or they would revolt en masse"."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-nimbys-out-in-the-sticks-threaten-to-shatter-political-legacies-29908359.html

We can't base a serious discussion on our future energy mix and distribution based on an unattributed quote from a government spindoctor. I have to say most of the medias contribution (especially the Independent) to the "debate" so far has been to add heat but not a lot of light.

Wind Energy is just one aspect of Grid 25. You also have:

- Grid Resiliance (see current storms)
- Availability of high quality high reliability grid connection for IDA prospects
- The potential to move to electric propulsion in cars which would ramp up power demands at consumer level.
- The general year on year increase in consumption by consumers of power
- The potential of consumers to feed into the grid from micro generation (solar etc)

As it's name implies - this is a long term plan working toward what the country will need in 2025 and beyond. Not today. This plan was not just thought up on the back of a cigarette packet either. It's a complex multi dimensional project being reduced by some to a "we're selling out our children to feed the English electricity" nonsense.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-01-2014 07:29PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Was it not pointed down they closed some nuclear plants and went back to coal/oil odd emissions went up aint it ..

more FUD

Germany started building new coal plants during the boom. They haven't started any more since the recession started. Those plants replaced older less efficient ones. So about 25% less CO2 emission [edit - per KWh ]. Also they've more or less replaced nuclear with renewables by now. And wholesale price is lower.

Greensleeves · 13-01-2014 08:23PM

micosoft wrote: »

We can't base a serious discussion on our future energy mix and distribution based on an unattributed quote from a government spindoctor. I have to say most of the medias contribution (especially the Independent) to the "debate" so far has been to add heat but not a lot of light.

Wind Energy is just one aspect of Grid 25. You also have:

- Grid Resiliance (see current storms)
- Availability of high quality high reliability grid connection for IDA prospects
- The potential to move to electric propulsion in cars which would ramp up power demands at consumer level.
- The general year on year increase in consumption by consumers of power
- The potential of consumers to feed into the grid from micro generation (solar etc)

As it's name implies - this is a long term plan working toward what the country will need in 2025 and beyond. Not today. This plan was not just thought up on the back of a cigarette packet either. It's a complex multi dimensional project being reduced by some to a "we're selling out our children to feed the English electricity" nonsense.

A lot of bother could be saved if Eirgrid could clarify precisely why the grid needs upgrading. If part of the upgrade involves renewable energy exports then just say so. It our domestic energy requirements are going to surge dramatically then tell the public why there is going to be such an increase in demand. For example, what are Eirgrid's future electricity requirement forecasts based on?

If there is a genuine shortage of electricity in some parts of Ireland then we need to know about this. If parts of the country have missed out on significant investment because of the lack of electricity the public should be told which areas are affected. This is such a serious issue that surely there would have been questions in the Dail (and some media coverage) if companies refused to locate somewhere because of an unreliable electricity supply. How come nobody has said anything?

Greensleeves · 13-01-2014 08:40PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

more FUD

Germany started building new coal plants during the boom. They haven't started any more since the recession started. Those plants replaced older less efficient ones. So about 25% less CO2 emission. Also they've more or less replaced nuclear with renewables by now. And wholesale price is lower.

Coal use in Germany the highest in 24 years
Cecilia Jamasmie | January 8, 2014

Coal-generated electricity spiked in Germany last year to its highest level since 1990, despite the country’s campaign to shift to green sources of energy by 2022.

Industry figures show that bituminous coal and lignite together contributed 45.5% to the country’s gross energy output in 2013, up from 44% the previous year.

Brown coal accounted for electricity to the tune of 162 billion kilowatt hours, equivalent to about 25% of Germany's total electricity production of 629 billion kilowatt hours in 2013, industry group Arbeitsgemeinschaft Energiebilanzen said.

http://www.mining.com/coal-use-in-germany-the-highest-in-24-years-48776/

Birdnuts · 13-01-2014 08:42PM

Zen65 wrote: »

.

Also, why would I doubt EirGrid on this anyway (apart from the fact that I find their PR people to be really bad at their job)? The current Regulatory environment in Ireland has EirGrid owning no Transmission assets, and therefore there is no financial benefit to them in having more infrastructure built. If ESB Networks were the ones pushing for this one might be suspicious, since they earn a small financial return from the construction of assets. EirGrid pretty much gets nothing out of this, except hassle. I'm betting nobody in EirGrid actually enjoys pushing this project as it simply exposes them to vitriol. They push for it, I'm guessing, because they know it's needed. You don't have to like people to accept that they are acting professionally.

On the other hand I do doubt the objectors. I'm tired of objections to infrastructure projects in this country based on scaremongering. The M50, the M3, the N11 at Glen-of-the-Downs, and pretty much every other major road, major gas line, major electricity line, or incinerator faced years of delay from objectors. Mostly these projects do go ahead, years late, at a much higher cost because of the delays, and the predicted disasters do not occur. Not too long ago there was a Transmission line built up to Sligo (400kV or 220kV?) amidst all sorts of claims that tourism would be wrecked by it, kids made ill, etc etc. It's operating away now and in all fairness you hardly see it when you're driving past it.

Our objectors have a fairly poor track record of being right about . . . . well, anything.

One-off housing on the other hand, has wrecked the landscape and made infrastructure planning a nightmare. I don't see too many groups holding marches about that. Funny, no?

The health question about EMF has been pretty much answered as conclusively as it can be, given that it's impossible to prove a negative. The WHO have lost interest in it, having established guidelines on EMF exposure which ensure that no discernible adverse effects will be found. There is no house in Ireland where the EMF from outside the home is remotely comparable to the EMF generated inside the home from the domestic wiring and home appliances. And I'll be the first to admit that pylons are not overly attractive, but in fairness they are also not overly noticeable when they're planned right.

Let's get these things built and be done with it.

Eirgrid is a government quango set up to implement government policies whether they make any financial sense or not. If people think the Irish Water quango is wasting money it will be a drop in the ocean if these plans go ahead as envisaged. I suppose Bord Failte are a bunch of cranks too

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eirgrids-network-plans-under-fire-255064.html

Maybe if more cranks raised objection to government banking/building policies in the past we wouldn't be left with ghost estates, bust banks etc.

Birdnuts · 13-01-2014 08:48PM

The escalating cost of retail power in Germany is indeed crippling households and businesses. And this what the Eirgrid/wind power fans on here want for Ireland:rolleyes:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brighammccown/2013/12/30/germanys-energy-goes-kaput-threatening-economic-stability/

pljudge321 · 13-01-2014 10:43PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Eirgrid is a government quango set up to implement government policies whether they make any financial sense or not. If people think the Irish Water quango is wasting money it will be a drop in the ocean if these plans go ahead as envisaged. I suppose Bord Failte are a bunch of cranks too

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eirgrids-network-plans-under-fire-255064.html

Maybe if more cranks raised objection to government banking/building policies in the past we wouldn't be left with ghost estates, bust banks etc.

Eirgrid is the transmission system operator and run the single electricity market for Ireland and Northern Ireland. They employ a couple of hundred engineers and were formed from what used to be ESB National Grid. Yeah, ticks all the boxes for a quango.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-01-2014 11:50PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

The escalating cost of retail power in Germany is indeed crippling households and businesses. And this what the Eirgrid/wind power fans on here want for Ireland:rolleyes:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brighammccown/2013/12/30/germanys-energy-goes-kaput-threatening-economic-stability/

German wholesale price have fallen from €60/MWh to €35/MWh in recent years
http://fbkfinanzwirtschaft.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/germany-wholesale-electricity-price.jpg

What's making the retail price expensive is all the add ons, not the cost of the power itself.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-01-2014 12:11AM

Greensleeves wrote: »

A lot of bother could be saved if Eirgrid could clarify precisely why the grid needs upgrading. If part of the upgrade involves renewable energy exports then just say so. It our domestic energy requirements are going to surge dramatically then tell the public why there is going to be such an increase in demand. For example, what are Eirgrid's future electricity requirement forecasts based on?

Did you see my post that generation capacity in Cork is already restricted to 800MW ?

Our energy requirements aren't going to surge but the trend is upwards, the population is growing, electric cars might take off. And we are committed to doubling renewables. And it's nice to have redundancy on a network. Even the Shannon Scheme had two lines to Dublin.
90,000 horse power from 10,400Km2 !!
http://arts.brighton.ac.uk/__data/assets/image/0015/55230/Untitled-1.jpg
http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/Ardnacrusha004.pdf

It used to supply the entire country, but how it would produce 2% of peak demand at this time of day.

Companies that use oodles of 'leccy won't locate unless there is good transmission system in place. The likes of Aughinish or Intel or all those data centres because Ireland has clouds.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-01-2014 12:21AM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Coal use in Germany the highest in 24 years
Cecilia Jamasmie | January 8, 2014

Coal-generated electricity spiked in Germany last year to its highest level since 1990, despite the country’s campaign to shift to green sources of energy by 2022.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/researchers-alarmed-at-rise-in-german-brown-coal-power-output-a-942216.html

Electricity output from brown coal plants rose 0.8 percent in 2013, said Jochen Diekmann of the German Institute for Economic Research. As a result, Germany's CO2 output is expected to have risen in 2013, even as power from renewable sources has reached 25 percent of the energy mix.

A 0.8% spike :rolleyes:

also there is more power being produced because they are exporting it

The increase in coal-generated power also led to a new record in German electricity exports to around 33 billion kilowatt hours. "In 2013 Germany exported more power than it imported on eight out of 10 days. Most of it was generated by from brown coal and anthracite power stations,"

My bad on the 25% - it should have been 25% less coal per KWh between the old retired coal stations and the new ones coming on line, not 25% overall

micosoft · 14-01-2014 12:46AM

Greensleeves wrote: »

A lot of bother could be saved if Eirgrid could clarify precisely why the grid needs upgrading. If part of the upgrade involves renewable energy exports then just say so. It our domestic energy requirements are going to surge dramatically then tell the public why there is going to be such an increase in demand. For example, what are Eirgrid's future electricity requirement forecasts based on?

If there is a genuine shortage of electricity in some parts of Ireland then we need to know about this. If parts of the country have missed out on significant investment because of the lack of electricity the public should be told which areas are affected. This is such a serious issue that surely there would have been questions in the Dail (and some media coverage) if companies refused to locate somewhere because of an unreliable electricity supply. How come nobody has said anything?

They have. A lot of bother would be saved if people ignored the soundbites and read the comprehensive case that Eirgrid have written. It's all freely and easily available.

You won't see companies state that they won't locate in x because of power issues - the areas simply won't make it onto the shortlist in the first place.

The IDA have made their views very clear on the matter.

micosoft · 14-01-2014 01:00AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Eirgrid is a government quango set up to implement government policies whether they make any financial sense or not. If people think the Irish Water quango is wasting money it will be a drop in the ocean if these plans go ahead as envisaged. I suppose Bord Failte are a bunch of cranks too

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eirgrids-network-plans-under-fire-255064.html

Maybe if more cranks raised objection to government banking/building policies in the past we wouldn't be left with ghost estates, bust banks etc.

Perhaps if the Government listened to the professional planners, the professional finance staff (who did warn) instead of every amateur crank who thinks they are an expert. This especially applies when said crank believes they know more about power engineering then every major utility and electrical engineering company in Europe.

RE Bord Failte - this was concerned with route selection and weighting based on landscape factors. It's an opinion and certainly did not recommend not proceeding with the upgrade or propose undergrounding.

Birdnuts · 14-01-2014 01:44AM

micosoft wrote: »

They have. A lot of bother would be saved if people ignored the soundbites and read the comprehensive case that Eirgrid have written. It's all freely and easily available.

You won't see companies state that they won't locate in x because of power issues - the areas simply won't make it onto the shortlist in the first place.

The IDA have made their views very clear on the matter.

I suspect your were hoping no one would bother reading those links, peppered as they are with references to the need to adapt the grid to wind power.

" Capacity has remained largely unchanged in the last 20 years, a period that has seen a growth of 150% in the electricity demand being carried by the system. EirGrid calculates that to facilitate the necessary increase in renewable generation and to adequately meet the demands of the electricity customer, the capacity of the bulk transmission system will need to be doubled by 2025."

So a 150% increase in demand(which overlapped the Celtic Tiger period and the boom of the late 90's) did not lead to black outs on the existing system and yet Eirgrid claim we need a vast new pylon system which by their own word will be mainly wind based - interesting that it quotes the ESRI which saw one its chief economist Richard Tol cast serious doubts on the wind energy strategy before he moved on recently to another job. To top it off we have the foreward written by one Eamonn Ryan who seems to be a full time lobbyist for the wind industry these days, not to mention being part of a government that lead us to economic ruin

Birdnuts · 14-01-2014 01:59AM

micosoft wrote: »

Perhaps if the Government listened to the professional planners, the professional finance staff (who did warn) instead of every amateur crank who thinks they are an expert. This especially applies when said crank believes they know more about power engineering then every major utility and electrical engineering company in Europe.

.

Are you taking about the cranks in the link below?? - shure what would they know about the economics of power generation????

http://theenergycollective.com/ansorg/289671/european-renewable-energy-subsidies-under-fire-major-power-generators

Interesting how the fear of blackouts actually arises from basing a grid on unreliable renewable sources like wind. Makes what the likes of Eirgrid are doing all the more disturbing

.

Greensleeves · 14-01-2014 01:30PM

micosoft wrote: »

Perhaps if the Government listened to the professional planners, the professional finance staff (who did warn) instead of every amateur crank who thinks they are an expert. This especially applies when said crank believes they know more about power engineering then every major utility and electrical engineering company in Europe.

Would they be the same professional planners that the Government listened to during the building boom?

The economists Colm McCarthy and Richard Tol are very sceptical of the pylons/wind turbine plans.

Here's an extract from an article by McCarthy in the Independent back in December.

"The Irish Academy of Engineering produced a detailed report on this issue in June 2012. It concluded that the Government should do nothing in support of wind farms for export that would increase costs for Irish taxpayers or for Irish consumers. The Academy noted that: "At a time when capital for investment in Ireland is so scarce, it is critically important to minimise investment in public infrastructure such as transmission. Given that the Irish Government implicitly stands behind such investment by State-owned companies such as ESB and EirGrid, it must be realised that such investment competes directly with government investments in, for example, Irish health and education.""

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/colm-mccarthy-case-for-wind-must-be-proven-on-costs-29798897.html

JRant · 15-01-2014 12:11AM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Would they be the same professional planners that the Government listened to during the building boom?

The economists Colm McCarthy and Richard Tol are very sceptical of the pylons/wind turbine plans.

Here's an extract from an article by McCarthy in the Independent back in December.

"The Irish Academy of Engineering produced a detailed report on this issue in June 2012. It concluded that the Government should do nothing in support of wind farms for export that would increase costs for Irish taxpayers or for Irish consumers. The Academy noted that: "At a time when capital for investment in Ireland is so scarce, it is critically important to minimise investment in public infrastructure such as transmission. Given that the Irish Government implicitly stands behind such investment by State-owned companies such as ESB and EirGrid, it must be realised that such investment competes directly with government investments in, for example, Irish health and education.""

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/colm-mccarthy-case-for-wind-must-be-proven-on-costs-29798897.html

If engineers were wrong as often as economists would you get on a plane?

I know who I'd believe.

Greensleeves · 15-01-2014 10:45AM

From the Irish Times Tuesday 14/1/2014.

Roscommon campaigners say living with pylons is even worse than anticipated

Campaigners in Co Roscommon who lost a 12-year battle to block a high-voltage power line from going through their community have said that opponents of Grid 25 should know that the reality of living with pylons is even worse than they had anticipated.

The group has also criticised the “confusion” about the cost of the controversial 56km Flagford (Co Roscommon) to Srananagh” (Co Sligo) line, saying some of the figures provided suggest that the final bill was almost three times more than the original estimate in the ESB’s Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) prepared for the planning application.

“And, funnily, the argument against underground is that it would cost three times more than overground,” said Frank Mulligan a farmer from Grange, Boyle.

The ESB yesterday confirmed that the final cost of the Flagford-Srananagh line was €91.9 million and said comparison with the EIS estimate (of almost €37 million) was not valid.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/roscommon-campaigners-say-living-with-pylons-is-even-worse-than-anticipated-1.1654158#.UtURg3J1LQo.twitter

Pylons

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