Pylons

Mountainsandh · 12-01-2014 02:07AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Your missing the point .. If everyone else kept their oil/gas/coal we would soon run out of power. Other countries export why shouldn't we ?

When it's feasible to export without too much inconvenience to a native population, then it's a great idea.

When exporting is going to be a great imposition on the population, for a handful of people's benefit (not the general population), then imo it is not a good idea.

When exporting is going to affect a large section of the economy (tourism), with great potential losses for the country, again it is not a great idea.

JRant · 12-01-2014 05:17PM

Had a good read through the thread and I must thank the anti-pylon brigade for a good old fashion laugh.

Thank fook their not involved in the planning or implementation of a project like this as they don't know their arse from their elbow.

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and this thread is a perfect case in point.

Couple of things stick out though.

There are 10's of thousands of people living in Dublin with these pylons on their doorstep but only country folk should be compensated. Sounds about right in this country.

These same people will complain about lack of industry/jobs in their area but as soon as a plan is put in place to tackle this they scream blue murder. Just like the people who were interviewed on RTE news during the week. They lived in a small town just outside Cork city and were campaigning against this, despite the fact it's main purpose is to help entice industry into the area and help employment.

Then there was the know-it-all on Pat Kenny arguing against the pylons. This chap was a real gem. His main gripe was on health grounds, won't somebody think of the children blah blah blah. When Kenny played him a clip of a leading scientist in the field of EMF stating that HV lines produce about twice the normal backround radition and are harmless his response was "I've done a bit of googling and we'll have to argee to disagree". Nearly fell off my chair laughing when I heard this but it's symptomatic of alot of these gobshîtes with their Google and their I know best attitude. Sure what would the people who spend 7+ years getting a phd know, I have the tinternet.

el pasco · 12-01-2014 07:21PM

Is this pylon issues not mixed in with a lot of other issuers
Like it wasn't a big a deal when it was being discussed going through Meath Monagahan Cavan Tyrone but is a national issues because its in Munster Leinster
Secondly it's a local/Euro election year
Thirdly FF/SF making hay out of this issue
Then you have the anti everything bridage
You also have the farmers who from I can hear just want as much money they can get out of this as they can
Then you have "death of rural Ireland" campign out again

Basically what will happen is that the pylons will go ahead but the farmers will get a pile of money for compo and everyone else will forget about it in years to come
It will cost everyone 3% extra in electricity bills for the next 50 years for under ground cables and farmers get one off payment of €25k for current plyons and more for the bigger plyons with money for disruption (one off) and an annual allowance
This has many similarities with the motorway building project a few years ago especially the M3 project

el pasco · 12-01-2014 07:27PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Soon free water to the people of Ireland will be a memory

Water was never free as it has to be paid either directly by yourself or indirectly through the tax system

el pasco · 12-01-2014 07:39PM

Could we not do what the Swiss do and just put it to a national vote and let the public decide??

darkpagandeath · 12-01-2014 07:48PM

el pasco wrote: »

Could we not do what the Swiss do and just put it to a national vote and let the public decide??

There is a reason they have not called for a vote the Anti side know they will lose massively. Most intelligent people realise this if for future proofing and to entice industry not some kind of wind farm conspiracy. I would be interested to know how many company's like Google would build environmentally cooled server farms if they had access in the remote areas were these would work best had access to the power they need.

JRant · 12-01-2014 08:19PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is a reason they have not called for a vote the Anti side know they will lose massively. Most intelligent people realise this if for future proofing and to entice industry not some kind of wind farm conspiracy. I would be interested to know how many company's like Google would build environmentally cooled server farms if they had access in the remote areas were these would work best had access to the power they need.

Exactly right. Look at Little island in Cork, huge multinationals set up there due to the quality of the electrical network and access to ports nearby. If we don't invest in this infrastructure and power outages start these companies will be gone quicker than you can say 'brown out'. We're talking millions lost if power is disrupted during production.

That's thousands of jobs gone overnight and guess who the first ones to give out will be.

We have, by and large, an excellent grid and I for one am delighted that projects like this are being undertaken. Not to mention that the fibre network upgrades will be piggy backed onto it.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 08:21PM

JRant wrote: »

These same people will complain about lack of industry/jobs in their area but as soon as a plan is put in place to tackle this they scream blue murder. Just like the people who were interviewed on RTE news during the week. They lived in a small town just outside Cork city and were campaigning against this, despite the fact it's main purpose is to help entice industry into the area and help employment.

.

Pylons create jobs - can you explain that one?? As I pointed out earlier in the thread Laois has a higher density of pylons than any country in Ireland and not one IDA job created in decades for the county. A small town outside Cork would want an awfull lot more than some pylons to tempt industry away from major hubs like Cork City and all the other necessary transport and educational infrastructure required to set up significant employers. Claiming otherwise as was the case with Enda Kenny this week is an insult to peoples intelligence.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 08:30PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is a reason they have not called for a vote the Anti side know they will lose massively. Most intelligent people realise this if for future proofing and to entice industry not some kind of wind farm conspiracy..

http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridwest/

from the link above

"Why is the project needed?

Ireland’s national goal is to meet 40% of electricity demand from renewable sources by 2020 – these include wind, wave and tidal energy. The existing transmission infrastructure in the region needs substantial investment to accommodate the West’s increasing levels of renewable generation."

I find it amusing how some people drone on about the cost of undergrounding cables when you read the above quote and the implications it has for our energy bills in the future as I highlighted earlier citing the escalating energy bills for the citizens of wind based grids such as Denmark and Germany.

JRant · 12-01-2014 08:48PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Pylons create jobs - can you explain that one?? As I pointed out earlier in the thread Laois has a higher density of pylons than any country in Ireland and not one IDA job created in decades for the county. A small town outside Cork would want an awfull lot more than some pylons to tempt industry away from major hubs like Cork City and all the other necessary transport and educational infrastructure required to set up significant employers. Claiming otherwise as was the case with Enda Kenny this week is an insult to peoples intelligence.

Here's how it works, jobs are created in Cork city, these jobs need filling, Timmy from just out the road applies and gets the job. Same way it happens all over the country. Think about how many people live within an hour of Cork City. Or should jobs only be created on peoples doorstep?

You gripe is with Laois CC then, nothing to do with the electrical grid. That they haven't had the foresight to do something for themselves has no bearing on what Eirgrid are doing.

Some peoples intelligence speaks for itself, no need for anyone else to do the job of insulting it.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 08:54PM

JRant wrote: »

Here's how it works, jobs are created in Cork city, these jobs need filling, Timmy from just out the road applies and gets the job. Same way it happens all over the country. Think about how many people live within an hour of Cork City. Or should jobs only be created on peoples doorstep?

.

Thanx - you proved my point. Now can you explain why we need further pylon sprawl across rural parts of Ireland when we have an existing pylon network(which can be upgraded as needs must) that already serves our major growth hubs??. You might also cite some examples of industry refusing to locate to these hubs due to fears of brown/black outs??

JRant · 12-01-2014 08:56PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridwest/

from the link above

"Why is the project needed?

Ireland’s national goal is to meet 40% of electricity demand from renewable sources by 2020 – these include wind, wave and tidal energy. The existing transmission infrastructure in the region needs substantial investment to accommodate the West’s increasing levels of renewable generation."

I find it amusing how some people drone on about the cost of undergrounding cables when you read the above quote and the implications it has for our energy bills in the future as I highlighted earlier citing the escalating energy bills for the citizens of wind based grids such as Denmark and Germany.

You left this bit out

"The growth of the wind energy sector represents an opportunity to reduce our dependence on imported fossil fuels and foster a clean, indigenous, and sustainable energy source and reduce our CO2 emissions."

If you're going to quote it at least use the full one so a bit of context can be given.

As an aside, what are your opinions on the rising cost of hydrocarbons and the decreasing costs of renewables?
In the not to distant future we'll reach a crossover point between the two and we'll be well placed to take advantage of this.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 09:04PM

JRant wrote: »

You left this bit out

"The growth of the wind energy sector represents an opportunity to reduce our dependence on imported fossil fuels and foster a clean, indigenous, and sustainable energy source and reduce our CO2 emissions."

If you're going to quote it at least use the full one so a bit of context can be given.

As an aside, what are your opinions on the rising cost of hydrocarbons and the decreasing costs of renewables?
In the not to distant future we'll reach a crossover point between the two and we'll be well placed to take advantage of this.

You claimed earlier that you read through this thread. If you did you will see that I posted links showing how wind power in places like Germany is associated with rising retail energy bills and CO2 emmisions. The fact that Eirgrid and this government are choosing to ignore such evidence and spend enormous amounts of citizens money on this white elephant should alarm anyone with an ounce of commonsense

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:12PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

You claimed earlier that you read through this thread. If you did you will see that I posted links showing how wind power in places like Germany is associated with rising retail energy bills and CO2 emmisions.

I did and I have.

There are no links between wind power and rising CO2 emmissions. The increased emmissions are more than likely due to the fact that Germany has fallen back on coal powered plants until renewables can plug the gap.

Unless of course your trying to argue that wind farms are pumping out CO2. If true it's news to me and would be news to alot of people more in the know than either of us.

el pasco · 12-01-2014 09:22PM

Do people want all power lines under ground or just these ones and if so why??

What about the current plyons?

Are people willing to pay more money for power for many years to come for under ground cables?

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 09:24PM

JRant wrote: »

I did and I have.

There are no links between wind power and rising CO2 emmissions. The increased emmissions are more than likely due to the fact that Germany has fallen back on coal powered plants until renewables can plug the gap.

Unless of course your trying to argue that wind farms are pumping out CO2. If true it's news to me and would be news to alot of people more in the know than either of us.

The have fallen back on coal cos they made the stupid decision to shutter their nuclear plants and go with wind power which failed badly last winter due to low wind speeds and freezing weather. There is your link right there!! Simply replacing Irelands existing peat and cold fired power stations with gas plants will reduce emissions and keep costs under control much better than wasting coutless billions of euros on wind energy and having little to show for it at the end of the day.

el pasco · 12-01-2014 09:25PM

JRant wrote: »

I did and I have.

There are no links between wind power and rising CO2 emmissions. The increased emmissions are more than likely due to the fact that Germany has fallen back on coal powered plants until renewables can plug the gap.

Unless of course your trying to argue that wind farms are pumping out CO2. If true it's news to me and would be news to alot of people more in the know than either of us.

Wind farms do produce Co2 emissions indirectly because they need generators "ticking over" if and when they don't produce power and or are broken been services etc
You can get away with about 5-10% of power by wind above that you need back up generators

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:25PM

el pasco wrote: »

Do people want all power lines under ground or just these ones and if so why??

What about the current plyons?

Are people willing to pay more money for power for many years to come for under ground cables?

Just the new ones so they can get some compo. They couldn't care less about existing pylons.

Of course not, they want somebody else to pay for it for them.

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:28PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

The have fallen back on coal cos they made the stupid decision to shutter their nuclear plants and go with wind power which failed badly last winter due to low wind speeds and freezing weather. There is your link right there!! Simply replacing Irelands existing peat and cold fired power stations with gas plants will reduce emissions and keep costs under control much better than wasting coutless billions of euros on wind energy and having little to show for it at the end of the day.

Right so CO2 emissions rising have absolutely nothing to do with wind energy then. It's the coal plants doing that.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 09:34PM

JRant wrote: »

Right so CO2 emissions rising have absolutely nothing to do with wind energy then. It's the coal plants doing that.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Wind energy has failed to significantly reduce CO2 emissions across the EU - yet you want to keep wasting billions of euros on it while at the same time scarring the landscape with unnecessary energy sprawl. Your entitled to you opinion but unfortunately it makes little financial or environmental sense in the real world

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:35PM

el pasco wrote: »

Wind farms do produce Co2 emissions indirectly because they need generators "ticking over" if and when they don't produce power and or are broken been services etc
You can get away with about 5-10% of power by wind above that you need back up generators

??

We always have a baseload on the network. To blame wind farms on emissions from CCGT's and peat/coal plants is wide of the mark.

We have had regular wind penetration of 15% + on the grid. The generators aren't the backup, they supply the baseload for the entire grid.

el pasco · 12-01-2014 09:39PM

JRant wrote: »

Right so CO2 emissions rising have absolutely nothing to do with wind energy then. It's the coal plants doing that.

Thanks for clearing that up.

You always need a back up supply for wind energy which usually means a thermal power station like oil coal or gas wind engergy only is working about 30% of the time and its hard to predict when it will be windy and for how long so you need back up supply which in most cases means thermal power

Since you can't just fire up a thermal power station in a few seconds you have to have them constantly ticking over to make sure that'll they can kick in when the wind power stops

The best way would probably have wind energy to be stored either by water pump storage or by storing compressed air which can then turn a turbine to make electricity

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:40PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Wind energy has failed to significantly reduce CO2 emissions across the EU - yet you want to keep wasting billions of euros on it while at the same time scarring the landscape with unnecessary energy sprawl. Your entitled to you opinion but unfortunately it makes little financial or environmental sense in the real world

That's because wind energy in isolation can't tackle CO2 emissions.

It will take decades to move away from hydrocarbons. In the mean time we will all have to live with the increasing costs of energy production. Loads of people want 'green' energy but refuse to pay more for it. Or would you prefer we did nothing and became more dependent on finite fossil resources.

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:43PM

el pasco wrote: »

You always need a back up supply for wind energy which usually means a thermal power station like oil coal or gas wind engergy only is working about 30% of the time and its hard to predict when it will be windy and for how long so you need back up supply which in most cases means thermal power

Since you can't just fire up a thermal power station in a few seconds you have to have them constantly ticking over to make sure that'll they can kick in when the wind power stops

The best way would probably have wind energy to be stored either by water pump storage or by storing compressed air which can then turn a turbine to make electricity

I fully agree, it would be much more benefical to use pump storage as a way of utilising wind energy. However this will lead to even more NIMBYism. As was seen with the spirit of Ireland project that was scrapped.

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 09:46PM

JRant wrote: »

That's because wind energy in isolation can't tackle CO2 emissions.

It will take decades to move away from hydrocarbons. In the mean time we will all have to live with the increasing costs of energy production. Loads of people want 'green' energy but refuse to pay more for it. Or would you prefer we did nothing and became more dependent on finite fossil resources.

So what is the point in wind energy so??

The cost of all commodities has gone up thanx to money printing by central banks around the world. Once the QE stops most commodities will drop sharply since as I highlighted with the case of Natural Gas vast new reserves are being discovered all the time and the US is now self sufficient. Indeed many gas producing countries such as Algeria are getting worried that they will struggle to find customers in the future. Indeed energy use in many Western contries is reducing/stabilizing with the adoption of more energy saving technology and increased efficiency. Indeed this is where the government should be putting investment instead of pandering to vested interests such as the wind lobby

rovoagho · 12-01-2014 09:47PM

We do use pumped storage, at Turloughmore. We just don't have enough of it.

el pasco · 12-01-2014 09:50PM

JRant wrote: »

??

We always have a baseload on the network. To blame wind farms on emissions from CCGT's and peat/coal plants is wide of the mark.

We have had regular wind penetration of 15% + on the grid. The generators aren't the backup, they supply the baseload for the entire grid.

Yes I know that we have a baseload but I'm saying that's wind farms aren't as green as they say as you have to compensate for the power when they aren't been used which is most of the time

Anyway where does the extra power that wind farms produce go to?
In many countries they just dump it in the market making other forms or producing energy even less profitable

The Germans are already paying far far more for energy than they should be because of this green wind farms energy agenda
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUS
L6N0FL11720130716?irpc=932

http://www.epaw.org/documents.php?article=backup1

Birdnuts · 12-01-2014 09:52PM

JRant wrote: »

I fully agree, it would be much more benefical to use pump storage as a way of utilising wind energy. However this will lead to even more NIMBYism. As was seen with the spirit of Ireland project that was scrapped.

That was scraped because the costs were enormous and the potential severe environmental impacts. There is a similar proposal for North Mayo but again the costs run into many billions of Euros. In any case you need a certain type of glaciated valley to make the thing even practical on any level and there is only a small number of such areas in the country which are even remotely suitable. and thats overlooking all the other problem associented with this experimental technology

JRant · 12-01-2014 09:56PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

So what is the point in wind energy so??

The cost of all commodities has gone up thanx to money printing by central banks around the world. Once the QE stops most commodities will drop sharply since as I highlighted with the case of Natural Gas vast new reserves are being discovered all the time and the US is now self sufficient. Indeed many gas producing countries such as Algeria are getting worried that they will struggle to find customers in the future. Indeed energy use in many Western contries is reducing/stabilizing with the adoption of more energy saving technology and increased efficiency. Indeed this is where the government should be putting investment instead of pandering to vested interests such as the wind lobby

Wind reduces the amount of fossil fuels required.

There's alot to be said for increasing energy efficiencies. Here's a report you may find interesting.

http://www.leonardo-energy.org/sites/leonardo-energy/files/root/pdf/2008/PQ%20Survey/PQsurveybrochure.pdf

el pasco · 12-01-2014 09:59PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

That was scraped because the costs were enormous and the potential severe environmental impacts. There is a similar proposal for North Mayo but again the costs run into many billions of Euros. In any case you need a certain type of glaciated valley to make the thing even practical on any level and there is only a small number of such areas in the country which are even remotely suitable. and thats overlooking all the other problem associented with this experimental technology

Could you not have pump storage on a small scale using something like a water tower?

What about using highly compressed air?

Pylons

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