Garda charged for pepper spraying teen..

timmy4u2 · 07-01-2014 02:36AM

PopRocks wrote: »

But apparently they have no rights in front of the public? People seemed to have decided the guards in question were scumbags before they even spoke at all.

Most people who have had a problem on the wrong side of the law that had to be dealt with by a Garda will throw mud whenever they get the chance to do it annonymously and all the better if there is an audience to egg them on.
Its an Irish thing, they seem to think they are bigger and tougher for it

Paulie Gualtieri · 07-01-2014 02:56AM

Just thinking there . if it was in the u.s the little scummer would be thanking his lucky stars that he got sprayed. The alternative "GET ON THE GROUND NOW" bang bang. Officer given a medal.

Slightly exaggerated but you get the idea.

suicide_circus · 07-01-2014 03:19AM

Issue them with bear mace like Dog the bounty hunter.

Go with Christ, brah.

djflawless · 07-01-2014 03:22AM

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

"GET ON THE GROUND NOW" bang bang. Officer given a medal.

If most Irish people had a chance to vote, this would be a regular occurrence on Irish streets.
So called "do-gooders" think anyone that spits in a lake should be executed and whoever pulled the trigger rewarded.
I think its about time everyone was given a fair and equal trial, including facts of actions at the time of capture taken into consideration.
Not just a case of "he didn't eat tarmac so I gave him 50 Mls of mace"

PopRocks · 07-01-2014 03:45AM

djflawless wrote: »

If most Irish people had a chance to vote, this would be a regular occurrence on Irish streets.
So called "do-gooders" think anyone that spits in a lake should be executed and whoever pulled the trigger rewarded.
I think its about time everyone was given a fair and equal trial, including facts of actions at the time of capture taken into consideration.
Not just a case of "he didn't eat tarmac so I gave him 50 Mls of mace"

he had 22 previous convictions including eight for public order or criminal damage offences and two for common assault, he agreed that he could be aggressive. He agreed he had initially resisted arrest and that he had headbutted the window of the garda car three or four times when he was initially placed in it but he denied he was violent at the time he was handcuffed and peppersprayed.

If a dog, known to you had become violent 20 times and bitten twice would you take any chances around it when it became aggressive again?

djflawless · 07-01-2014 06:22AM

So they get rid of him second time. Guard probably knew the chap and knew they'd get the rise out of him

source · 07-01-2014 07:24AM

I have a few stories which might shed some light on what can happen when a person is handcuffed. I used to be a member of AGS, and both these incidents happened before the issue of pepper spray.

The first incident, I had arrested a very drunk male. He was so drunk that I couldn't walk him down the stairs in the station to the cell area. I had to take the tiny lift with him. I got in the lift, pinned him against the wall and stood back for the short trip down to the cell area. When I was backing him out of the lift, in the confined space he threw his head back connecting with my face just to the left of my nose. I went down in a heap. When I came back to my senses, 3 colleagues were wrestling with the guy trying to get him under control. Which they eventually did but a controlled burst from the spray would have sorted the situation much quicker.

The second story I want to share is about a young lad of 17, he decided he was going to slash his arms open with a knife and run away from home. This young man was well known to Gardai in the area. No less than 5 cars responded and went searching for the guy.

I found him with my partner unconscious under a large bush. He came to while we were carrying him out and he became aggressive, elbowing my partner in the face. We got him out and calmed down somewhat, so the paramedics could have a look at his arms. He then started getting aggressive in the ambulance. We cuffed him and let the paramedics do a quick bandage job on his arms. They said he needed stitches but they were not going to transport him because of how aggressive and violent he was getting.

We had him outside the ambulance and we were discussing what to do when he started screaming and kicking out. We pinned him against the bonnet of a car, and he started to hit his head off the bonnet, trying to cause more damage. I climbed onto the bonnet to hold his head still.

We decided we couldn't take him to A&E until he calmed down, so we brought him to the station, 4 of us went in the car with him. He was sat in the middle between me and another member, On the car journey back to the station, he tried to bite me and the other member, and he started trying to kick the driver of the patrol car. We had to try to restrain him in the back seat of the car which is not as easy a task as you might think.

When we got him to the station he again had to be restrained, because of how aggressive he was, the Sgt decided he had to go to hospital, So we waited for a van to become available. When we got one we put him in the cell, but again he started to bang his head off the cell walls (perspex box inside a heavy metal cage). I went in the cell with my partner and got him in a position on the ground where he couldn't do any damage, and we drove out to the hospital.

In the hospital he calmed down enough to be treated, while handcuffed to a bed for everyone's safety, and was put back in the van to be brought back to the station, he fought us the whole way back to the station.

This incident started on a busy Friday night, in a city centre station, it ran from approximately 0130 to just before 0700. It tied up at the highest point 12 members for over an hour at the busiest time of one of the busiest nights of the week. IF I had pepper spray at the time, I would have sprayed him outside the ambulance, when he was cuffed and banging his head, and the rest of the incident would not have happened.

Just because a person is handcuffed, does not mean he is no longer a danger to himself or others.

tdv123 · 07-01-2014 08:10AM

Free Staters using brutality against innocent people, nothing new here anyway.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 07-01-2014 09:00AM

tdv123 wrote: »

Free Staters using brutality against innocent people, nothing new here anyway.

The "Free State" hasn't existed since 1937!

loves_tea · 07-01-2014 12:03PM

PopRocks wrote: »

I know the female guard. One of the nicest and fairest people I've ever come across. People should wait for the facts before hurling insults I was disgusted reading some of the things written about her online. There are bad guards but not all guards are bad.

from reading boards , one would think anyone who was ever a member of AGS makes nelson mandella look like a low life

the endless eulogising is nauseating

loves_tea · 07-01-2014 12:06PM

Jester252 wrote: »

You have to be prove guilty. You can't prove anyone guilty on hear say.

in theory perhaps but all kinds of farcical convictions are handed down , especially in the district courts where mad judges and their decisions don't make the news , ive seen it , unfortunately not everyone can afford to appeal even they would be sure of a turnover in the circuit court

mickydoomsux · 07-01-2014 12:31PM

loves_tea wrote: »

from reading boards , one would think anyone who was ever a member of AGS makes nelson mandella look like a low life

the endless eulogising is nauseating

As opposed to the idiots who come on here with half baked conspiracy theory sh1te harping on about Free Staters any time the police are mentioned.

What to know why the cops are hassling/have hassled you? Because you are acting the dickhead.

In my thirty years i have had no interaction with the police beyond standard traffic stops for tax/insurance etc.

Why? Because i don't go out looking for bother and then get pissy pants about it when it finds me.

Ray Palmer · 07-01-2014 12:38PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

As opposed to the idiots who come on here with half baked conspiracy theory sh1te harping on about Free Staters any time the police are mentioned.

What to know why the cops are hassling/have hassled you? Because you are acting the dickhead.

In my thirty years i have had no interaction with the police beyond standard traffic stops for tax/insurance etc.

Why? Because i don't go out looking for bother and then get pissy pants about it when it finds me.

We'll I'm just about to hit 40 and I can say I have seen Garda harass people on many occasions. I have seen them act completely over the top and as bad as any bully. What's more I have seen them hit restrained people and teenagers.

The case being dropped is terrible. They assaulted somebody handcuffed and on the ground using pepper spray. They dropped the case because they believed it will be used against the use of pepper spray. It still remains assault.

conorhal · 07-01-2014 12:43PM

SV wrote: »

He was handcuffed. They should have put restrained him with other methods, leg straps and the likes if he was actually being agressive.

Pepper spraying is the wrong solution.

Do you think it's ok for a Garda to hit lads a few slaps while they're handcuffed?

And how were you going to get those leg restraints on him if he's thrashing about trying to kick you in the face?
I think people that find themselves getting pepper sprayed, more often then not are simply getting exactly what they've been asking for.

mickydoomsux · 07-01-2014 12:49PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

They assaulted somebody handcuffed and on the ground using pepper spray.

Wasn't there some dispute earlier on as to whether the person was handcuffed?

Regardless, this is fairly common procedure to stop someone from resisting arrest/injuring an officer in a lot of police forces around the world.

EuskalHerria · 07-01-2014 12:49PM

conorhal wrote: »

And how were you going to get those leg restraints on him if he's thrashing about?.

I can only speak for myself, but getting pepper sprayed without the ability to even wipe my own eyes would probably lead to more thrashing about.

cosy_deal · 07-01-2014 01:11PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

As opposed to the idiots who come on here with half baked conspiracy theory sh1te harping on about Free Staters any time the police are mentioned.

What to know why the cops are hassling/have hassled you? Because you are acting the dickhead.

In my thirty years i have had no interaction with the police beyond standard traffic stops for tax/insurance etc.

Why? Because i don't go out looking for bother and then get pissy pants about it when it finds me.

an incredibly smug yet naïve attitude , the guards stitch people up on a regular basis and decent people at that , im not talking about framing people for murder though the carry on in Donegal was in that ballpark , I know a guy who was tormented by AGS for the simple reason he fell out with someone who had connections high up in the force , the guy was assaulted on his own property by this individual yet he was the one who got a conviction , guards pushed for it and the local judge is a renowned nutter , he didn't go to jail but got a 3 k fine , now granted he had the most useless legal team in the country but that's beside the point

its dangerous when people think police should have unconditional support

j8wk2feszrnpao · 07-01-2014 01:29PM

The OP link didn't provide much details on the issue.
All we knew was that the Gardai were charged with using pepper-sprayed on the teen while he was incapacitated.
A serious charge, but having read the article I would have sided with innocent until proven guilty.

Forwarding onto the article from yesterday, there still isn't much detail to examine.
The case appears to have been withdrawn due to lack of evidence against the Gardai.

The teen claimed that he was handcuffed, then removed from the car onto the ground, and then pepper sprayed.
The Garda claimed that they were following procedure and the pepper-spray was used to "incapacitate someone who was at risk to themselves and to others".

We may never know the full true story of what happened.
So it falls into a question of who you believe.
The two Garda, who don't appear to have any previous charges (none that are listed anyway).
The teen:

with "22 previous convictions including eight for public order or criminal damage offences and two for common assault"
who "had been involved in a violent incident early at Paul Street shopping centre when a group of teenagers laid siege to the centre and he had kicked in a glass panel in one of the doors during the disturbance"
who "agreed he had initially resisted arrest and that he had headbutted the window of the garda car three or four times"

As I said, we may never knew the full story, but I'd fully side with the Gardai on this.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 07-01-2014 01:31PM

cosy_deal wrote: »

the guards stitch people up on a regular basis and decent people at that

Slow down a bit there.
On a regular basis?
That's a claim that you cannot backup.

cosy_deal wrote: »

its dangerous when people think police should have unconditional support

I doubt you'll find anyone that'll have that opinion.

timmy4u2 · 07-01-2014 01:31PM

source wrote: »

I have a few stories which might shed some light on what can happen when a person is handcuffed. I used to be a member of AGS, and both these incidents happened before the issue of pepper spray.

The first incident, I had arrested a very drunk male. He was so drunk that I couldn't walk him down the stairs in the station to the cell area. I had to take the tiny lift with him. I got in the lift, pinned him against the wall and stood back for the short trip down to the cell area. When I was backing him out of the lift, in the confined space he threw his head back connecting with my face just to the left of my nose. I went down in a heap. When I came back to my senses, 3 colleagues were wrestling with the guy trying to get him under control. Which they eventually did but a controlled burst from the spray would have sorted the situation much quicker.

The second story I want to share is about a young lad of 17, he decided he was going to slash his arms open with a knife and run away from home. This young man was well known to Gardai in the area. No less than 5 cars responded and went searching for the guy.

I found him with my partner unconscious under a large bush. He came to while we were carrying him out and he became aggressive, elbowing my partner in the face. We got him out and calmed down somewhat, so the paramedics could have a look at his arms. He then started getting aggressive in the ambulance. We cuffed him and let the paramedics do a quick bandage job on his arms. They said he needed stitches but they were not going to transport him because of how aggressive and violent he was getting.

We had him outside the ambulance and we were discussing what to do when he started screaming and kicking out. We pinned him against the bonnet of a car, and he started to hit his head off the bonnet, trying to cause more damage. I climbed onto the bonnet to hold his head still.

We decided we couldn't take him to A&E until he calmed down, so we brought him to the station, 4 of us went in the car with him. He was sat in the middle between me and another member, On the car journey back to the station, he tried to bite me and the other member, and he started trying to kick the driver of the patrol car. We had to try to restrain him in the back seat of the car which is not as easy a task as you might think.

When we got him to the station he again had to be restrained, because of how aggressive he was, the Sgt decided he had to go to hospital, So we waited for a van to become available. When we got one we put him in the cell, but again he started to bang his head off the cell walls (perspex box inside a heavy metal cage). I went in the cell with my partner and got him in a position on the ground where he couldn't do any damage, and we drove out to the hospital.

In the hospital he calmed down enough to be treated, while handcuffed to a bed for everyone's safety, and was put back in the van to be brought back to the station, he fought us the whole way back to the station.

This incident started on a busy Friday night, in a city centre station, it ran from approximately 0130 to just before 0700. It tied up at the highest point 12 members for over an hour at the busiest time of one of the busiest nights of the week. IF I had pepper spray at the time, I would have sprayed him outside the ambulance, when he was cuffed and banging his head, and the rest of the incident would not have happened.

Just because a person is handcuffed, does not mean he is no longer a danger to himself or others.

Those cells in Henry Street are a bad set up.steep stairs and tiny lift. I had reason to be in that area once or twice.
Yes, pepper spray is a great friend of the Garda and the recipient.It makes the Garda's job easier and prevents the recipient from getting himself/herself from getting themselves into greater trouble.
The majority of recipients will be happy the next morning but you will allways get the few who cannot accept they acted like scumbags and were brought down to reality.
I was out one night, before Pepper Spray and I saw a Female Garda arrest and handcuff an out of control drunk girl in her twenties. She was accompanied by a male Garda and try as they may they could not get her into the patrol car.
Along came another Garda and they failed again until another Garda came along.

So what is the alternative; do you let them off? In that situation you will be very vulnerable afterwards if he/she comes back with allegations because you will not have the recorded evidence of the demeanour and actions of that person to rely upon for your defence of any allegations.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 07-01-2014 01:35PM

timmy4u2 wrote: »

So what is the alternative; do you let them off? In that situation you will be very vulnerable afterwards if he/she comes back with allegations because you will not have the recorded evidence of the demeanour and actions of that person to rely upon for your defence of any allegations.

Just wondering (as I have know idea of what actions a Garda can/can't take), would a Garda not turn on their mobile phone and use video/voice recording of the incident (person is handcuffed at this stage) to use in case of any allegation?

sparksfly · 07-01-2014 01:44PM

Quote "The two Garda, who don't appear to have any previous charges (none that are listed anyway).
The teen:

with "22 previous convictions including eight for public order or criminal damage offences and two for common assault"
who "had been involved in a violent incident early at Paul Street shopping centre when a group of teenagers laid siege to the centre and he had kicked in a glass panel in one of the doors during the disturbance"
who "agreed he had initially resisted arrest and that he had headbutted the window of the garda car three or four times" Quote

Its incredible.
Garda time and taxpayers money wasted on sorting out trash like this, cops get a hard time and people still siding with the lowlife.
You far more likely to be hassled or assaulted by a scummer than injured by a Garda on a typical visit to most towns.

mickydoomsux · 07-01-2014 01:47PM

cosy_deal wrote: »

the guards stitch people up on a regular basis and decent people at that ,

No they don't.

Provide actual evidence other than "i know a guy that a thing happened to".

timmy4u2 · 07-01-2014 02:02PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The OP link didn't provide much details on the issue.
All we knew was that the Gardai were charged with using pepper-sprayed on the teen while he was incapacitated.
A serious charge, but having read the article I would have sided with innocent until proven guilty.

Forwarding onto the article from yesterday, there still isn't much detail to examine.
The case appears to have been withdrawn due to lack of evidence against the Gardai.

The teen claimed that he was handcuffed, then removed from the car onto the ground, and then pepper sprayed.
The Garda claimed that they were following procedure and the pepper-spray was used to "incapacitate someone who was at risk to themselves and to others".

We may never know the full true story of what happened.
So it falls into a question of who you believe.
The two Garda, who don't appear to have any previous charges (none that are listed anyway).
The teen:
with "22 previous convictions including eight for public order or criminal damage offences and two for common assault"

who "had been involved in a violent incident early at Paul Street shopping centre when a group of teenagers laid siege to the centre and he had kicked in a glass panel in one of the doors during the disturbance"

who "agreed he had initially resisted arrest and that he had headbutted the window of the garda car three or four times"

As I said, we may never knew the full story, but I'd fully side with the Gardai on this.

The question that has to be asked here is 'If the guy had not placed himself in the position of breaching the law and resisting arrest would he have been in the situation of being pepper sprayed. The obvious answer is no.
As there was no charge before the court of false arrest we have to assume that the GSOC, the investigating officer (s) and the DPP were satisfied that the arrest was lawful.

It came down to the amount of force used and it is very easy for the hurler on the ditch and indeed some decision makers and investigators who have never seen action on the streets to say he was handcuffed so it was not necessary to use further force to effect the arrest

Section 3 of the NonFatal Offences Against The Person Act is about assault causing harm.
If it hinged on that then pepper spray is a lethal wepon as there is no other way to use it other than by spraying it.
I think the DPP put too much emphasis on the recent case from Waterford when making their decision to prosecute, where the GSOC had successful prosecutions in a similar arrest in the city, but in that instance there were enough Gardai present to contain the person.

suicide_circus · 07-01-2014 02:02PM

Turner wrote: »

It really was lovely of An Garda Siochana to suspend the two Gardai on the day of the trial so that they could stand trial as civillians...

Bearing in mind that An Garda Siochana had exactly the same evidence as the GSOC and the Dpp in relation to this case and new it was bullsh1t.

They should have stood behind their members along with the GRA and marched into court with them, everybody in uniform, with both their superiors and senior council for the Garda Commissioner present.

God knows why the Gardai bother putting themselves out on the street, chasing cars, tackling armed criminals unarmed, jumping into drunken drug fuelled fights with only a baton and oc spray....when even their own management wont back them...

God that is a shocking slap in the face to those two gardai

coolemon · 07-01-2014 02:18PM

loves_tea wrote: »

from reading boards , one would think anyone who was ever a member of AGS makes nelson mandella look like a low life

the endless eulogising is nauseating

+1000

Plenty of little Hitlers in the Gardai.

An internal survey of Gardai in 2009 revealed the following, and it dosnt paint a pretty picture:

- Machismo culture: aggressive confrontational masculine behaviour
dominates (even among women members) - 47% said Yes

- Have you met a Garda colleague who is unsuitable for policing? - 79% Yes

- Them versus us – those outside or inside are perceived to be against us- 55% Yes

- Racist behaviour towards others outside or inside the Garda - 36% Yes

- Violence unjustified by law: using more force than allowed by law - 17% Yes

- Class bias towards others outside or inside the Garda where different
social classes are seen to be treated differently - 37% Yes

- Rule-bending, covering up infringements, backing each other up - 26% Yes

- Abuse of powers where stops, searches, arrests or detention or the use of
force or discretion is slightly or significantly beyond what the law specifies - 30% Yes

- Is there an antagonistic attitude towards certain groups in society? - 57% Yes

- Is there institutional racism in An Garda Síochána where the organisation
fails to outlaw racism? - 27% Yes

- Is the use of authority the central meaning of policing for you? - 7% Yes

- Is the Garda culture the same as that of a rugby club in terms of
physicality and drinking prowess? - 24% Yes

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Communique%20Final%20DEC%2009%20Reduced.pdf

j8wk2feszrnpao · 07-01-2014 02:31PM

coolemon wrote: »

+1000
An internal survey of Gardai in 2009

Just for clarity, it was student Gardai. Interesting all the same.

"It was completed by 186 Student Gardaí at the start of their Phase 2 training. On returning to the Garda College on Phase 3, 174 out of the original 186 students completed the same questionnaire again."

coolemon · 07-01-2014 02:33PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Just for clarity, it was student Gardai. Interesting all the same.

"It was completed by 186 Student Gardaí at the start of their Phase 2 training. On returning to the Garda College on Phase 3, 174 out of the original 186 students completed the same questionnaire again."

Try and find a similar survey of serving Gardai.

Water in the desert and all that.

We can draw many inferences from the survey above.

Shady Tady · 07-01-2014 02:34PM

coolemon wrote: »

+1000

Plenty of little Hitlers in the Gardai.

An internal survey of Gardai in 2009 revealed the following, and it dosnt paint a pretty picture:

- Machismo culture: aggressive confrontational masculine behaviour
dominates (even among women members) - 47% said Yes

- Have you met a Garda colleague who is unsuitable for policing? - 79% Yes

- Them versus us – those outside or inside are perceived to be against us- 55% Yes

- Racist behaviour towards others outside or inside the Garda - 36% Yes

- Violence unjustified by law: using more force than allowed by law - 17% Yes

- Class bias towards others outside or inside the Garda where different
social classes are seen to be treated differently - 37% Yes

- Rule-bending, covering up infringements, backing each other up - 26% Yes

- Abuse of powers where stops, searches, arrests or detention or the use of
force or discretion is slightly or significantly beyond what the law specifies - 30% Yes

- Is there an antagonistic attitude towards certain groups in society? - 57% Yes

- Is there institutional racism in An Garda Síochána where the organisation
fails to outlaw racism? - 27% Yes

- Is the use of authority the central meaning of policing for you? - 7% Yes

- Is the Garda culture the same as that of a rugby club in terms of
physicality and drinking prowess? - 24% Yes

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Communique%20Final%20DEC%2009%20Reduced.pdf

I didn't realise they were human beings!

07-01-2014 02:37PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I didn't realise they were human beings!

Are you kidding me?
You think that those high stats for institutionalised racism is A) normal and

acceptable in our police force?

Garda charged for pepper spraying teen..

Comments