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The Game By Neil strauss

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  • #842
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And just for balance on the female side, a friend (more an acquaintance really) of mine became single after being with someone for 5 years. From what I hear she was doing quite well for herself and I heard one night another girl giving her advice about "how to play the game", a direct quote. The one giving the advice threw herself at just about everyone we both know at different times, even though she would have no "need" to. She was telling the other girl about playing hard to get and how to know if a lad was into her and how to change his mind if he wasn't. The "games" go on with everyone but the fact that male sexuality is viewed as a threat (see the Game of Thrones episodes of South Park :P ) means that when men do anything that doesn't come "naturally" to them to try to get lucky it's seen as being insidious and seedy.


  • #843
    Bolderdash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Bolderdash


    I think a lot of PUA so to speak is about changing your mindset from a man who tries to impress women to a man who screens women to see if they are good enough for him. Do they impress him. That's why women tend to get attracted when you say things like " you are messing up your chances with me".

    Take the scenario where you approach two women who are sitting down and their is no where for you to sit. The chances of attracting them are really small if you talk to them for half an hout standing while they are sitting. The reason being is if gives off a vibe of scarcity. Women are attracted to men of abundance, men who have plentiful options with women.

    So you could say the same funny thing for example standing up and they won't laugh but if you had all been standing they would have laughed.

    The underlying frame of the interaction is that you are selling yourself to the women, that you are trying to impress them when they are sitting and you are standing. So it colours their interpretation of everything you do.

    The underlying frame you want to assert is that they are trying to impress you. You are the prize.


  • #844
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    Bolderdash wrote: »
    I think that's something you want to believe. It's wild speculation from someone who has never put this in practice. From first hand experience I've improved with pretty much all types of women after taking on board PUA advice, and probably improved the most with intelligent , confident women.

    There's not really any point in arguing with him, he doesn't seem to know much about PUA, he just doesn't like the general concept, even seems offended by it


  • #845
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,822 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Bolderdash wrote: »
    I think a lot of PUA so to speak is about changing your mindset from a man who tries to impress women to a man who screens women to see if they are good enough for him. Do they impress him. That's why women tend to get attracted when you say things like " you are messing up your chances with me".

    Take the scenario where you approach two women who are sitting down and their is no where for you to sit. The chances of attracting them are really small if you talk to them for half an hout standing while they are sitting. The reason being is if gives off a vibe of scarcity. Women are attracted to men of abundance, men who have plentiful options with women.

    So you could say the same funny thing for example standing up and they won't laugh but if you had all been standing they would have laughed.

    The underlying frame of the interaction is that you are selling yourself to the women, that you are trying to impress them when they are sitting and you are standing. So it colours their interpretation of everything you do.

    The underlying frame you want to assert is that they are trying to impress you. You are the prize.

    This is cringe-worthy. All of it.


  • #846
    Bolderdash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Bolderdash


    osarusan wrote: »
    This is cringe-worthy. All of it.

    Whether it's cringe worthy or not it's true. Walk over to 10 pairs of women who are sitting and chat while standing and then do the same to 10 who are standing also. You'll see a difference.


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  • #847
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


  • #848
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    IrishFeeney92 wrote: »
    If anybody is interested in having a chat. PM me
    Thought you said you had a girlfriend? Ohhh, I see, ya crafty dog ya.


  • #849
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Bolderdash wrote: »
    I think that's something you want to believe. It's wild speculation from someone who has never put this in practice. From first hand experience I've improved with pretty much all types of women after taking on board PUA advice, and probably improved the most with intelligent , confident women.


    It's not something I just believe, I've witnessed it first hand, and I've witnessed the after-effects, and I've witnessed the long term effects on guys that were what used be called "players" back in the day. Nowadays they still suffer the same social ineptitude, but their catchment pool got a whole lot smaller in the two decades or so since, and that failure seeps into other areas of their life. PUA strategy is what I call short term gains but long term failure.

    You say you've improved with all types of women, but what have you improved about yourself? As for what you consider confidence and intelligence, given that you've had to resort to PUA, our ideas about confident and intelligent women would be vastly different things. In your case, and I don't mean this to be funny or anything, but if you think PUA works, that speaks volumes about your own level of confidence and intelligence, so anything above that wouldn't be hard.

    osarusan wrote: »
    In the context of advocating honesty, openness, and genuine behaviour when meeting women, what exactly does 'challenging yourself' mean?


    It means being honest, open, and genuine, exactly what it says on the tin. Instead of measuring your success in terms of how many women you can get into bed, a better measure is how much you've developed yourself as a person. PUA does nothing but stunt your self development, you're not doing anything to overcome your own insecurities, you're just seeking out women who are more insecure than you are and exploiting them for your own personal gain. It's basically a philosophy for a narcissist that needs constant validation and needs their fragile ego stroked.

    When I say challenging yourself, it means instead of learning how to be a fake flake - learn new skills and hobbies to build your confidence and self-esteem, real personal achievements rather than staying at the level of a boring bottom feeder. How long can you keep up the PUA pretence when it's easier to be honest than it is to lie? The only person you're really fooling at the end of the day is yourself.


  • #850
    Bolderdash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Bolderdash


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    It's not something I just believe, I've witnessed it first hand, and I've witnessed the after-effects, and I've witnessed the long term effects on guys that were what used be called "players" back in the day. Nowadays they still suffer the same social ineptitude, but their catchment pool got a whole lot smaller in the two decades or so since, and that failure seeps into other areas of their life. PUA strategy is what I call short term gains but long term failure.

    You say you've improved with all types of women, but what have you improved about yourself? As for what you consider confidence and intelligence, given that you've had to resort to PUA, our ideas about confident and intelligent women would be vastly different things. In your case, and I don't mean this to be funny or anything, but if you think PUA works, that speaks volumes about your own level of confidence and intelligence, so anything above that wouldn't be hard.





    It means being honest, open, and genuine, exactly what it says on the tin. Instead of measuring your success in terms of how many women you can get into bed, a better measure is how much you've developed yourself as a person. PUA does nothing but stunt your self development, you're not doing anything to overcome your own insecurities, you're just seeking out women who are more insecure than you are and exploiting them for your own personal gain. It's basically a philosophy for a narcissist that needs constant validation and needs their fragile ego stroked.

    When I say challenging yourself, it means instead of learning how to be a fake flake - learn new skills and hobbies to build your confidence and self-esteem, real personal achievements rather than staying at the level of a boring bottom feeder. How long can you keep up the PUA pretence when it's easier to be honest than it is to lie? The only person you're really fooling at the end of the day is yourself.

    I don't lie, I'm completely honest with women and I am completely myself.

    I hope you realise you are giving typical PUA advice, ie learn new skills and hobbies and build a fullfilling lifestyle.


  • #851
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #852
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    It means being honest, open, and genuine, exactly what it says on the tin.
    And when you're in your mid-twenties and that never gets you anywhere? I've been told my problem is that I come across too friendly and seem like I'm happy just having the laugh for a while. And not "too friendly" in the creepy way either, that's my friend you're thinking of. :P I can see why being yourself, being friendly, being straight-up and all the rest not working will end up with lads deciding "**** it, time to try something else".


  • #853
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


  • #854
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    IrishFeeney92 wrote: »
    Trust me on this. The fundamental skills, while they are blurred and disguised in this book, order to get more people interested and make more money, are INCREDIBLY effective in changing a person to the way they want to be. Ive seen it first hand, hell it even changed me, and defenitley for the beter. Some men Naturally take to this sort of thing without realizing, others need a help along the way, so be it.
    Nah I'm me and I don't intend on changing it for anyone. I've worked on my physical appearance (not much to work with unfortunately) for myself and my own health, after that, **** 'em.


  • #855
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


  • #856
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    IrishFeeney92 wrote: »
    An excellent attitude to have and I admire it greatly. But for those of us who at some point felt change was needed due to failures in certain areas, this was the way to go, im just glad it worked for me! :)
    Yeah it can go both ways, I've just completely stopped caring. I haven't felt more than "oh she's really hot" about a girl in over 2 years despite starting with a new college class in that time and meeting dozens of girls I could have potentially "fallen for".


  • #857
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The "games" go on with everyone but the fact that male sexuality is viewed as a threat (see the Game of Thrones episodes of South Park :P ) means that when men do anything that doesn't come "naturally" to them to try to get lucky it's seen as being insidious and seedy.
    I dunno about the male sexuality as threat part, but I'd broadly agree with you regarding the rest.

    There is most certainly a gender diff. An awful lot of articles in mainstream women's magazines are to do with romantic relationships. How to find a man, how to get a man, how to keep a man, how to do naughty things to a man etc etc. A further chunk is about how to fashion yourself up, which is about dressing for yourself, for social groups, but also for attracting blokes(or ladies).

    Traditionally the self help publishing genre is almost entirely aimed at women. It seems a very big market. The male market for same is relatively weak, with traditionally little beyond "How to get a six pack in 2 weeks with a bullworker and this supplement, you sad fat bastard you"(tm).

    Now one can argue that this is different, because it's talking about relationship advice(mostly), whereas the Game et al are just talking about picking up for sex. There is something to that yes, but given men are mostly seen as the ones who have to do all the running to even start a relationship, why is advice for them on how to be better at it, dismissed or ridiculed?

    Clearly some men are better at meeting and talking with and securing dates/snogs/relationships than other men. Even when you take obvious things like physical looks out of the equation. So what do these guys do that the wall flowers going home to pumpfist.com at the end of a night don't do. Can it be learned? Can they be given a lowdown on why and aim for self improvement in this and other aspects of their lives? *aside* "just be yourself/be more confident" is advice as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Is there a market for beyond the crass end of PUA? Would this be more acceptable for society?


    Like I mentioned earlier I see some some similarity with sex toys and gender. A woman is empowered if she has a drawer full of atomic powered french ticklers and a man in a relationship with her is to be supportive of such, yet how many women would stick around if a bloke whipped out a plastic fanny in the throes of pash? Few enough I'd warrant.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #858
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs wrote: »
    There is most certainly a gender diff. An awful lot of articles in mainstream women's magazines are to do with romantic relationships. How to find a man, how to get a man, how to keep a man, how to do naughty things to a man etc etc. A further chunk is about how to fashion yourself up, which is about dressing for yourself, for social groups, but also for attracting blokes(or ladies).
    http://www.cracked.com/article_19066_7-psychotic-pieces-relationship-advice-from-cosmo.html
    http://www.cracked.com/article/156_7-sex-tips-from-cosmo-that-will-put-you-in-hospital/
    Clearly some men are better at meeting and talking with and securing dates/snogs/relationships than other men. Even when you take obvious things like physical looks out of the equation. So what do these guys do that the wall flowers going home to pumpfist.com at the end of a night don't do. Can it be learned? Can they be given a lowdown on why and aim for self improvement in this and other aspects of their lives? *aside* "just be yourself/be more confident" is advice as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Is there a market for beyond the crass end of PUA? Would this be more acceptable for society?
    Nah sure all those guys are just losers who hate women for their own inadequacies :P
    Like I mentioned earlier I see some some similarity with sex toys and gender. A woman is empowered if she has a drawer full of atomic powered french ticklers and a man in a relationship with her is to be supportive of such, yet how many women would stick around if a bloke whipped out a plastic fanny in the throes of pash? Few enough I'd warrant.
    I find the trend towards girls being more "laddish" very disappointing. Part of that is because they have the freedom to be more "laddish" in certain ways but with that power they don't seem to be using it responsibly. :pac: But seriously, I'm in a position most people wouldn't be, in that I've messed around in college so I started with people who were around 17 and now I'm 8 years older than that, some of my peers are only 4 years older than that and the change really is noticeable. And ironically, while the girls talk about sex and the rest, being pretty damn crass and offensive about people (who they assume no-one knows), as soon as I make any kind of crass comment I'm given out to. But hey, empowerment! :P


  • #859
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


  • #860
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    There's not really any point in arguing with him, he doesn't seem to know much about PUA, he just doesn't like the general concept, even seems offended by it

    Nope, I know plenty about it Kaiser, and you're right, I really don't like the general concept of it. Am I offended by it? Not in the slightest. I have bigger things to be thinking about, but actually Wibbs hit the nail on the head for me -
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Is there a market for beyond the crass end of PUA? Would this be more acceptable for society?


    Sums it up in a nutshell really - It is indeed crass. It's fake, it's cheesy, it's cringeworthy.

    Bolderdash wrote: »
    I don't lie, I'm completely honest with women and I am completely myself.

    I hope you realise you are giving typical PUA advice, ie learn new skills and hobbies and build a fullfilling lifestyle.


    See that advice isn't specifically PUA advice, it's just common sense, but what PUA does is jazz it up and make it sexy. Common sense is boring, because it's ordinary, but wrap it up in rules and pseudoscience, stick a code on it, and suddenly it becomes intriguing, and when you buy into it you feel like you're finally getting the respect you always felt you deserved - you've gone from being a beta male to an alpha male, blue pill guy to red pill guy, etc, etc.


  • #861
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #862
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    IrishFeeney92 wrote: »
    You could have the best looking lad in the world, but if hes in no way confident an attractive woman that could potentially be interested in him will never go near him. Its up to the man to show his values and his ambitions in order to gain that confidence. How does he do this? he learns to express himself in ways he never knew how, he learns different social interactions, he takes care of himself health wise and he improves his character. This is the main message of PUA. The reason why it is so socially unacceptable to be associated with it is the way it is marketed and down to the way the general society sees it.

    Perspective is reality. But in this acse the perspective is wrong. And thats coming from an Insider

    The reason PUA is so socially unacceptable is because it is rightly perceived as unqualified and unprofessional advice targeted at men whose sole aim is to improve their chances with women.

    What you're actually describing above is more similar to life coaching, with the end goal being self development with the aim of improving one's outlook on life.

    If the general perception of PUA was that it could be seen as ANY way beneficial to society, it would have gained far more popularity by now. Instead, most people see it for exactly what it is - immature mind games and manipulation that will only ever appeal to a minority of people, and works on an even smaller minority of people.


  • #863
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


  • #864
    Legs.Eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I dunno about the male sexuality as threat part, but I'd broadly agree with you regarding the rest.

    There is most certainly a gender diff. An awful lot of articles in mainstream women's magazines are to do with romantic relationships. How to find a man, how to get a man, how to keep a man, how to do naughty things to a man etc etc. A further chunk is about how to fashion yourself up, which is about dressing for yourself, for social groups, but also for attracting blokes(or ladies).

    Traditionally the self help publishing genre is almost entirely aimed at women. It seems a very big market. The male market for same is relatively weak, with traditionally little beyond "How to get a six pack in 2 weeks with a bullworker and this supplement, you sad fat bastard you"(tm).

    Now one can argue that this is different, because it's talking about relationship advice(mostly), whereas the Game et al are just talking about picking up for sex. There is something to that yes, but given men are mostly seen as the ones who have to do all the running to even start a relationship, why is advice for them on how to be better at it, dismissed or ridiculed? .


    There's a bit more than just something to it, in fairness. The advice in those magazines is often ridiculed as well by the media (I know myself personally I'd do a lot of the ridiculing) but can you imagine that same advice being given to a woman for the sole purpose of getting men to buy her drinks or pay for dates, for example? There'd be uproar!


  • #865
    Bolderdash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Bolderdash


    Legs.Eleven wrote: »
    There's a bit more than just something to it, in fairness. The advice in those magazines is often ridiculed as well by the media (I know myself personally I'd do a lot of the ridiculing) but can you imagine that same advice being given to a woman for the sole purpose of getting men to buy her drinks or pay for dates, for example? There'd be uproar!

    You are presupposing that you need to trick women to have sex with you. Thats not true. Women love sex, including casual sex, you just have to learn how to be attractive. Then its a win win. Both parties get to have an enjoyable encounter and get to have sex with attractive people. Its win win.


  • #866
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭newport2


    Legs.Eleven wrote: »
    There's a bit more than just something to it, in fairness. The advice in those magazines is often ridiculed as well by the media (I know myself personally I'd do a lot of the ridiculing) but can you imagine that same advice being given to a woman for the sole purpose of getting men to buy her drinks or pay for dates, for example? There'd be uproar!

    Maybe in The Gentleman's Club on boards, but little elsewhere I expect. Men's issues don't generate uproar or anything like it.


  • #867
    Legs.Eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    Bolderdash wrote: »
    You are presupposing that you need to trick women to have sex with you. Thats not true. Women love sex, including casual sex, you just have to learn how to be attractive. Then its a win win. Both parties get to have an enjoyable encounter and get to have sex with attractive people. Its win win.


    Win win if the woman only wants sex.

    What if the woman was lead to believe there'd be more out of it. By using these techniques, you're giving the wrong impression.

    You don't need to tell me women love sex as I am one but when I was in my late teens, early 20s, I almost always hoped something more would come out of sleeping with a guy. I wanted a relationship and believed sleeping with a guy would lead to that. I wasn't anymore naive than any other woman my age. Those magazines in Cosmo give advice to women to find a man for a relationship, not just sex. That perhaps shows you the difference in our psyche.


    I also believe many young men want to meet a woman for a relationship too so might use this in the hopes that they'll get one. This might get a woman into bed but not much else as the man can't engage with a woman beyond a script.


  • #868
    Legs.Eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    newport2 wrote: »
    Maybe in The Gentleman's Club on boards, but little elsewhere I expect. Men's issues don't generate uproar or anything like it.


    This thread was started by a male poster. Not a huge amount of uproar over this either or at least in the forms of media I use. It's not something I've ever talked about with friends and despite what others think, it doesn't offend me or make me angry but I am questioning it. I've only ever encountered one lad using it (as far as I know) but then I am early 30s so not the target age.


  • #869
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭newport2


    Legs.Eleven wrote: »
    I also believe many young men want to meet a woman for a relationship too so might use this in the hopes that they'll get one. This might get a woman into bed but not much else as the man can't engage with a woman beyond a script.

    A lot of the advice given in these sort of books (I think) are how to approach women and get talking in the first place. Lots of men find this very difficult, but once the ice is broken they have no difficulty in engaging with the woman.

    If the man can't engage with a woman beyond a script he's hardly likely to keep her interest long enough to end up in bed.


  • #870
    Legs.Eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    newport2 wrote: »
    A lot of the advice given in these sort of books (I think) are how to approach women and get talking in the first place. Lots of men find this very difficult, but once the ice is broken they have no difficulty in engaging with the woman.

    If the man can't engage with a woman beyond a script he's hardly likely to keep het interest long enough to end up in bed.


    I'll be honest, my mind has been changed somewhat reading this thread and understand there's a lot of harmless PUA stuff out there which I've no problem with but some of the other stuff Balaclava (for example) posted can't be justified. I'm really questioning that stuff tbh. It's not very nice.


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  • #871
    seenitall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭seenitall


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah yeah, it would never work on you. When I first heard of it I looked at a couple of the "techniques" and for a laugh thought I'd see what happened when used it on female friends and I was actually disappointed in their reactions. I told them pretty quickly I was dicking about and they were more annoyed at their reactions than at my winding them up. Weird to think where it could've led to.

    Keep dreaming, sunshine, keep dreaming.

    I've never been successfully PUA'd and I never will be, but of course saying that on this thread is like a red rag to a bull for some of you types who think that women are puzzles to be solved and all of one mind (a stoopid one :D).


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