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Well said Roger Waters.

  • 15-12-2013 06:32PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭


    Agreed 100% with this view.

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...y-israel-nazis

    Inflammatory remarks by the musician Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, comparing the modern Israeli state to Nazi Germany have put him at the centre of a furious dispute.
    Performers and religious figures reacted angrily to the veteran rock star's argument that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians can be compared to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. "The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious," he said in an American online interview last week.
    Waters, 70, a well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, has frequently defended himself against accusations that he is antisemitic, claiming he has a right to urge fellow artists to boycott Israel.
    This summer he was criticised for using a pig-shaped balloon adorned with Jewish symbols, including a Star of David, as one part of the stage effects at his concerts. Waters countered that it was just one of several religious and political symbols in the show and not an attempt to single out Judaism as an evil force.
    Now leading American thinker Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has raised the stakes by describing Waters' views as audacious and clearly antisemitic.
    Writing in the New York Observer, the rabbi said: "Mr Waters, the Nazis were a genocidal regime that murdered six million Jews. That you would have the audacity to compare Jews to monsters who murdered them shows you have no decency, you have no heart, you have no soul." The rabbi was responding to Waters's latest comments on the Middle East. Speaking to the leftwing CounterPunch magazine, the musician criticised the US government for being unduly influenced by the Israeli "propaganda machine".
    The former Pink Floyd frontman, who has recently toured the world with a show based on the influential 1979 album The Wall, went on to describe the Israeli rabbinate as "bizarre" and accused them of believing that Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East were "sub-human". Waters suggested the "Jewish lobby" was "extraordinarily powerful". On the subject of the Holocaust, he said: "There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."
    Speaking from New York on Saturday night, Waters strongly rejected Rabbi Boteach's characterisation of his views. He said: "I do not know Rabbi Boteach, and am not prepared to get into a slanging match with him. I will say this: I have nothing against Jews or Israelis, and I am not antisemitic. I deplore the policies of the Israeli government in the occupied territories and Gaza. They are immoral, inhuman and illegal. I will continue my non-violent protests as long as the government of Israel continues with these policies.
    "If Rabbi Boteach can make a case for the Israel government's policies, I look forward to hearing it. It is difficult to make arguments to defend the Israeli government's policies, so would-be defenders often use a diversionary tactic, they routinely drag the critic into a public arena and accuse them of being an antisemite."
    Waters continued: "The Holocaust was brutal and disgusting beyond our imagination. We must never forget it. We must always remain vigilant. We must never stand by silent and indifferent to the sufferings of others, whatever their race, colour, ethnic background or religion. All human beings deserve the right to live equally under the law."
    Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to advocate passionately for a cause, but drawing inappropriate parallels with the Holocaust insults the memory of the six million Jews – men, women and children – murdered by the Nazis. These kinds of attacks are commonly used as veiled antisemitism and should be exposed as such."
    Jo-Ann Mort, vice-chair of US Jewish group Americans for Peace Now, is calling for musicians and other entertainers to go to Israel to understand that there is also Israeli opposition to discrimination against Arabs. Speaking to the Observer from California, she said it was important for international performers to "speak their mind to audiences about the nation's successes and failures. Just as Israeli musicians – Jewish, Muslim and Christian – do."
    "The media in Israel flock to foreign entertainers. Performers would have the opportunity to make their viewpoints known – and it will also help to break the logjam that fundamentalists have had on both sides," she argued.
    Mort supports the anti-boycott approach of Israeli singer and activist David Broza, whose forthcoming album East Jerusalem/West Jerusalem features covers of songs that urge understanding, including Waters's own song Mother, from the album The Wall.
    "Music captivates your head and your mind," Broza recently argued. "If it comes with good vibes, then everyone wants to be part of it. The hard work comes from having a belief in what you are doing and in not stopping at the barricades that are posted at every corner."
    Last week Waters's words drew a strong response from the Community Security Trust, the body that monitors anti-Jewish activity in Britain. A spokesman told the Jewish Chronicle that Waters's comments "echo the language of antisemitism" and added that the musician was "living proof of how easily people who pursue extreme anti-Israel politics can drift into antisemitic statements and ideas".
    Bicom, the UK-based Israel advocacy organisation, also condemned Waters's views. Chief executive Dermot Kehoe said: "The statements by Roger Waters calling for a cultural boycott of Israel and comparing the country to Nazi Germany are repugnant and fly in the face of both the reality in Israel today and the ongoing peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians."
    In August Waters used his Facebook page to respond to allegations that he was an "open hater of Jews", made by Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in an interview with an American weekly Jewish newspaper, the Algemeiner.
    "Often I can ignore these attacks, but Rabbi Cooper's accusations are so wild and bigoted they demand a response," Waters wrote, adding that he had "many very close Jewish friends".


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Unfortunately when you put "Nazi" and "Israel" in the same sentence, the whole message gets lost in the noise of the reaction. Apartheid South Africa is a far better comparison, and avoids the holocaust etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    I think there's wrong on both sides here. Comparing the Palestinian situation to the holocaust is pretty hysterical and why not just play for the Israeli people? Their not the one's who are making the policies and you might change more minds by putting your case directly to people rather than refusing to ever play for them.

    On the other hand the catch all label of anti semitic is used for anyone who criticises Israel. It's like saying shut up we've got a free pass to do anything we like because of what happened in the past.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    I was just thinking there hasn't been an Israel bashing thread in a while....
    Comparing Israel with Nazi Germany is silly


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    I was just thinking there hasn't been an Israel bashing thread in a while....

    What's wrong with standing up for a good cause?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I never knew the holocaust happened in the 1930s. Lives and learns


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Comfortably Dumb.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    What's wrong with standing up for a good cause?

    Absolutely nothing. Comparing a regime that intentionally murdered millions of political opponents, homosexuals, gypsies, Jew's etc etc with the state of Israel is ridiculous. Israel may not always be a saint but does not do anything like this. You may disagree with their policies but their intention is not to murder.

    There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

    /Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

    /Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah :)

    Shalom/Howeye. The bollocks must be frozen off ye if ye were on a door the last two nights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Nodin wrote: »
    Shalom/Howeye. The bollocks must be frozen off ye if ye were on a door the last two nights.

    It was actually really mild. Drop by and say HI sometime (seriously).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    You may disagree with their policies but their intention is not to murder.

    There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.

    This couldn't be any more black and white.

    And as for Israel having 'no intention to murder' - this clearly shows your lack of grasp of history over the past half-century in this area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    It was actually really mild. Drop by and say HI sometime (seriously).


    My ears nearly froze off goin up the road last night. Must be getting fraggle in old age.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    damn those pro israel spambots are ****ing quick


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 128 ✭✭xploderz


    omg YAWN like


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Balmed Out wrote: »

    There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.

    Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

    /Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah :)

    You're a couple of weeks late, and Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, not just an Israeli one. Jewish does not equal Israeli. Those who oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians are not necessarily or generally speaking anti-Semites.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Nodin wrote: »
    Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.

    This is probably post of the day. Even the double 'at all' :-)

    The pro-Israel colonial policy is often justified by the diversion of undesirables on the Palestinian side. It's a very twisted disturbing perspective unworthy of respect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    You're a couple of weeks late, and Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, not just an Israeli one. Jewish does not equal Israeli. Those who oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians are not necessarily or generally speaking anti-Semites.

    Good God someone took me seriously :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    This couldn't be any more black and white.

    And as for Israel having 'no intention to murder' - this clearly shows your lack of grasp of history over the past half-century in this area.

    Really so then if I research the casualties of the conflict I presume i will see

    Far more dead Israeli military personal then civilians
    Far more dead Palestinian civilian casualties then military

    If I research attacks I will see

    Far more Israeli attacks on civilian targets then military ones,
    Far more Palestinian attacks on military targets then civilans

    The conflict is a whole lot of grey and you clearly show no grasp of the history of the conflict. Rather then forming an opinion and researching to back it up perhaps researching and then forming an opinion would be a better idea.

    Anyone who thinks either side are angels or demons is, in my opinion blind to the truth and not really worth engaging with in a discussion on the subject so good luck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Nodin wrote: »
    Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.

    Colonialism is wrong and vodka makes you drunk but that's not here nor there unless you believe the solution to the current conflict is for the international community to forcibly remove all those who immigrated to the area since ww2 and their descendants.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    ChrimboElf wrote: »
    Arab-Israelis can vote in Israel and become elected politicians.
    Black Africans in Apartheid SA could not.

    Therefore Israel does not equal Apartheid SA. Keeping it simple for those blinded by hatred.

    You'll regret getting involved!.. Oh, in before someone calls you an Israeli Spambot too :cool: <<< Mossad emoticon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Colonialism is wrong and vodka makes you drunk but that's not here nor there unless you believe the solution to the current conflict is for the international community to forcibly remove all those who immigrated to the area since ww2 and their descendants.


    God no. The problem areas are the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Really so then if I research the casualties of the conflict I presume i will see

    Far more dead Israeli military personal then civilians
    Far more dead Palestinian civilian casualties then military

    If I research attacks I will see

    Far more Israeli attacks on civilian targets then military ones,
    Far more Palestinian attacks on military targets then civilans

    The conflict is a whole lot of grey and you clearly show no grasp of the history of the conflict. Rather then forming an opinion and researching to back it up perhaps researching and then forming an opinion would be a better idea.

    Anyone who thinks either side are angels or demons is, in my opinion blind to the truth and not really worth engaging with in a discussion on the subject so good luck.

    I've already stated in a previous post that there are some undesirables on the Palestinian side.

    But that same post also said this cannot in no way act as a justification for Israeli policy.

    Conflicts have causes. The current unsustainable situation on Israel-Palestine was caused and sustained by Israel. This exacerbated extremism on the Palestinian side. This by no means justifies Palestinian extremism but you can't have policy over the past 50 years which isolates Palestinians and then complain when they act in extreme reprisal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Nodin wrote: »
    God no. The problem areas are the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan.

    I think we can write off The Golan for the next few years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I think we can write off The Golan for the next few years.

    True there. Force of habit on my part.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    The holocaust was the height of rudeness on the Nazis part, as far as I'm concerned!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Comparing Israel to the Nazis is over the top. They are incomparable.

    I would compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians more to Ireland's treatment of the travelling community.

    Or the English of the Irish when the troubles kicked off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,706 ✭✭✭120_Minutes


    So just because the Holocaust was a terrible dispicable thing that happened 60 years ago, and something that should never be repeated, it cant be used as a comparison? Just cos the jews nearly got wiped out once means they get a free pass forever more?

    People who put the Holocaust up on an untouchable pedestal can just as bad as the deniers in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    My brother lives in Israel. He says it's more like aparthied South Africa.

    BTW it's currently snowing in Bethlehem.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Crea wrote: »
    My brother lives in Israel. He says it's more like aparthied South Africa.

    And he lived in S.A. too?... (I know the answer).


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