Well said Roger Waters.

Hagar the Nice.

Agreed 100% with this view.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...y-israel-nazis

Inflammatory remarks by the musician Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, comparing the modern Israeli state to Nazi Germany have put him at the centre of a furious dispute.
Performers and religious figures reacted angrily to the veteran rock star's argument that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians can be compared to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. "The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious," he said in an American online interview last week.
Waters, 70, a well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, has frequently defended himself against accusations that he is antisemitic, claiming he has a right to urge fellow artists to boycott Israel.
This summer he was criticised for using a pig-shaped balloon adorned with Jewish symbols, including a Star of David, as one part of the stage effects at his concerts. Waters countered that it was just one of several religious and political symbols in the show and not an attempt to single out Judaism as an evil force.
Now leading American thinker Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has raised the stakes by describing Waters' views as audacious and clearly antisemitic.
Writing in the New York Observer, the rabbi said: "Mr Waters, the Nazis were a genocidal regime that murdered six million Jews. That you would have the audacity to compare Jews to monsters who murdered them shows you have no decency, you have no heart, you have no soul." The rabbi was responding to Waters's latest comments on the Middle East. Speaking to the leftwing CounterPunch magazine, the musician criticised the US government for being unduly influenced by the Israeli "propaganda machine".
The former Pink Floyd frontman, who has recently toured the world with a show based on the influential 1979 album The Wall, went on to describe the Israeli rabbinate as "bizarre" and accused them of believing that Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East were "sub-human". Waters suggested the "Jewish lobby" was "extraordinarily powerful". On the subject of the Holocaust, he said: "There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."
Speaking from New York on Saturday night, Waters strongly rejected Rabbi Boteach's characterisation of his views. He said: "I do not know Rabbi Boteach, and am not prepared to get into a slanging match with him. I will say this: I have nothing against Jews or Israelis, and I am not antisemitic. I deplore the policies of the Israeli government in the occupied territories and Gaza. They are immoral, inhuman and illegal. I will continue my non-violent protests as long as the government of Israel continues with these policies.
"If Rabbi Boteach can make a case for the Israel government's policies, I look forward to hearing it. It is difficult to make arguments to defend the Israeli government's policies, so would-be defenders often use a diversionary tactic, they routinely drag the critic into a public arena and accuse them of being an antisemite."
Waters continued: "The Holocaust was brutal and disgusting beyond our imagination. We must never forget it. We must always remain vigilant. We must never stand by silent and indifferent to the sufferings of others, whatever their race, colour, ethnic background or religion. All human beings deserve the right to live equally under the law."
Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to advocate passionately for a cause, but drawing inappropriate parallels with the Holocaust insults the memory of the six million Jews – men, women and children – murdered by the Nazis. These kinds of attacks are commonly used as veiled antisemitism and should be exposed as such."
Jo-Ann Mort, vice-chair of US Jewish group Americans for Peace Now, is calling for musicians and other entertainers to go to Israel to understand that there is also Israeli opposition to discrimination against Arabs. Speaking to the Observer from California, she said it was important for international performers to "speak their mind to audiences about the nation's successes and failures. Just as Israeli musicians – Jewish, Muslim and Christian – do."
"The media in Israel flock to foreign entertainers. Performers would have the opportunity to make their viewpoints known – and it will also help to break the logjam that fundamentalists have had on both sides," she argued.
Mort supports the anti-boycott approach of Israeli singer and activist David Broza, whose forthcoming album East Jerusalem/West Jerusalem features covers of songs that urge understanding, including Waters's own song Mother, from the album The Wall.
"Music captivates your head and your mind," Broza recently argued. "If it comes with good vibes, then everyone wants to be part of it. The hard work comes from having a belief in what you are doing and in not stopping at the barricades that are posted at every corner."
Last week Waters's words drew a strong response from the Community Security Trust, the body that monitors anti-Jewish activity in Britain. A spokesman told the Jewish Chronicle that Waters's comments "echo the language of antisemitism" and added that the musician was "living proof of how easily people who pursue extreme anti-Israel politics can drift into antisemitic statements and ideas".
Bicom, the UK-based Israel advocacy organisation, also condemned Waters's views. Chief executive Dermot Kehoe said: "The statements by Roger Waters calling for a cultural boycott of Israel and comparing the country to Nazi Germany are repugnant and fly in the face of both the reality in Israel today and the ongoing peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians."
In August Waters used his Facebook page to respond to allegations that he was an "open hater of Jews", made by Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in an interview with an American weekly Jewish newspaper, the Algemeiner.
"Often I can ignore these attacks, but Rabbi Cooper's accusations are so wild and bigoted they demand a response," Waters wrote, adding that he had "many very close Jewish friends".

Nodin

Unfortunately when you put "Nazi" and "Israel" in the same sentence, the whole message gets lost in the noise of the reaction. Apartheid South Africa is a far better comparison, and avoids the holocaust etc.

Wattle

I think there's wrong on both sides here. Comparing the Palestinian situation to the holocaust is pretty hysterical and why not just play for the Israeli people? Their not the one's who are making the policies and you might change more minds by putting your case directly to people rather than refusing to ever play for them.

On the other hand the catch all label of anti semitic is used for anyone who criticises Israel. It's like saying shut up we've got a free pass to do anything we like because of what happened in the past.

Balmed Out

I was just thinking there hasn't been an Israel bashing thread in a while....
Comparing Israel with Nazi Germany is silly

wretcheddomain

Balmed Out wrote: »

I was just thinking there hasn't been an Israel bashing thread in a while....

What's wrong with standing up for a good cause?

Dyr

I never knew the holocaust happened in the 1930s. Lives and learns

Muise...

Comfortably Dumb.

Balmed Out

wretcheddomain wrote: »

What's wrong with standing up for a good cause?

Absolutely nothing. Comparing a regime that intentionally murdered millions of political opponents, homosexuals, gypsies, Jew's etc etc with the state of Israel is ridiculous. Israel may not always be a saint but does not do anything like this. You may disagree with their policies but their intention is not to murder.

There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

/Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah

Nodin

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

/Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah

Shalom/Howeye. The bollocks must be frozen off ye if ye were on a door the last two nights.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

Shalom/Howeye. The bollocks must be frozen off ye if ye were on a door the last two nights.

It was actually really mild. Drop by and say HI sometime (seriously).

wretcheddomain

Balmed Out wrote: »

You may disagree with their policies but their intention is not to murder.

There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.

This couldn't be any more black and white.

And as for Israel having 'no intention to murder' - this clearly shows your lack of grasp of history over the past half-century in this area.

Nodin

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

It was actually really mild. Drop by and say HI sometime (seriously).

My ears nearly froze off goin up the road last night. Must be getting fraggle in old age.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

damn those pro israel spambots are ****ing quick

xploderz

omg YAWN like

Nodin

Balmed Out wrote: »

There are plenty of good causes out there though that are much more black and white. This isnt one.

Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

Oh an anti Israeli thread, haven't done this one for awhile..

/Joe I'd like to say hell to my friends Nodin, Wes, Senah, Brimal and wish them all a Happy Hanukkah

You're a couple of weeks late, and Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, not just an Israeli one. Jewish does not equal Israeli. Those who oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians are not necessarily or generally speaking anti-Semites.

wretcheddomain

Nodin wrote: »

Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.

This is probably post of the day. Even the double 'at all' :-)

The pro-Israel colonial policy is often justified by the diversion of undesirables on the Palestinian side. It's a very twisted disturbing perspective unworthy of respect.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

You're a couple of weeks late, and Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, not just an Israeli one. Jewish does not equal Israeli. Those who oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians are not necessarily or generally speaking anti-Semites.

Good God someone took me seriously :rolleyes:

Balmed Out

wretcheddomain wrote: »

This couldn't be any more black and white.

And as for Israel having 'no intention to murder' - this clearly shows your lack of grasp of history over the past half-century in this area.

Really so then if I research the casualties of the conflict I presume i will see

Far more dead Israeli military personal then civilians
Far more dead Palestinian civilian casualties then military

If I research attacks I will see

Far more Israeli attacks on civilian targets then military ones,
Far more Palestinian attacks on military targets then civilans

The conflict is a whole lot of grey and you clearly show no grasp of the history of the conflict. Rather then forming an opinion and researching to back it up perhaps researching and then forming an opinion would be a better idea.

Anyone who thinks either side are angels or demons is, in my opinion blind to the truth and not really worth engaging with in a discussion on the subject so good luck.

Balmed Out

Nodin wrote: »

Colonialism = totally wrong. There's no too ways about it. The fact theres some ugly bastards on the Palestinian side makes no odds at all, at all.

Colonialism is wrong and vodka makes you drunk but that's not here nor there unless you believe the solution to the current conflict is for the international community to forcibly remove all those who immigrated to the area since ww2 and their descendants.

arybvtcw0eolkf

ChrimboElf wrote: »

Arab-Israelis can vote in Israel and become elected politicians.
Black Africans in Apartheid SA could not.

Therefore Israel does not equal Apartheid SA. Keeping it simple for those blinded by hatred.

You'll regret getting involved!.. Oh, in before someone calls you an Israeli Spambot too :cool: <<< Mossad emoticon.

Nodin

Balmed Out wrote: »

Colonialism is wrong and vodka makes you drunk but that's not here nor there unless you believe the solution to the current conflict is for the international community to forcibly remove all those who immigrated to the area since ww2 and their descendants.

God no. The problem areas are the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan.

wretcheddomain

Balmed Out wrote: »

Really so then if I research the casualties of the conflict I presume i will see

Far more dead Israeli military personal then civilians
Far more dead Palestinian civilian casualties then military

If I research attacks I will see

Far more Israeli attacks on civilian targets then military ones,
Far more Palestinian attacks on military targets then civilans

The conflict is a whole lot of grey and you clearly show no grasp of the history of the conflict. Rather then forming an opinion and researching to back it up perhaps researching and then forming an opinion would be a better idea.

Anyone who thinks either side are angels or demons is, in my opinion blind to the truth and not really worth engaging with in a discussion on the subject so good luck.

I've already stated in a previous post that there are some undesirables on the Palestinian side.

But that same post also said this cannot in no way act as a justification for Israeli policy.

Conflicts have causes. The current unsustainable situation on Israel-Palestine was caused and sustained by Israel. This exacerbated extremism on the Palestinian side. This by no means justifies Palestinian extremism but you can't have policy over the past 50 years which isolates Palestinians and then complain when they act in extreme reprisal.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

God no. The problem areas are the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan.

I think we can write off The Golan for the next few years.

Nodin

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

I think we can write off The Golan for the next few years.

True there. Force of habit on my part.

Standman

The holocaust was the height of rudeness on the Nazis part, as far as I'm concerned!

mad muffin

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is over the top. They are incomparable.

I would compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians more to Ireland's treatment of the travelling community.

Or the English of the Irish when the troubles kicked off.

120_Minutes

So just because the Holocaust was a terrible dispicable thing that happened 60 years ago, and something that should never be repeated, it cant be used as a comparison? Just cos the jews nearly got wiped out once means they get a free pass forever more?

People who put the Holocaust up on an untouchable pedestal can just as bad as the deniers in my opinion.

Crea

My brother lives in Israel. He says it's more like aparthied South Africa.

BTW it's currently snowing in Bethlehem.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Crea wrote: »

My brother lives in Israel. He says it's more like aparthied South Africa.

And he lived in S.A. too?... (I know the answer).

A Dub in Glasgo

One of the fighters against discrimination is lauded today and another condemned as a terrorist and shot. The first is in South Africa and the second is in occupied Palestine

Wibbs

Bambi wrote: »

I never knew the holocaust happened in the 1930s. Lives and learns

It didn't. Anti Jewish laws and deportations of Jews, theft of Jewish assets, businesses and property, beatings and killings of Jews in the street all kicked off with official support in the mid 30's on. The "final solution to the Jewish problem" as they so coldly put it only got going after the war kicked off and really on started in earnest in 1942-43 onwards.

mad muffin wrote: »

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is over the top. They are incomparable.

Yes comparing Israel's actions to the nazi Holocaust is so over the top you'd need the Hubble to track it. However the Nazi's policies in the mid 30's would be a little more comparable. The fact is Palestinians are second class citizens in a country that used to be theirs up to 60 years ago. Land has been stolen from them. They have been pushed into ever smaller enclaves.

I would compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians more to Ireland's treatment of the travelling community.

Are you having a laugh? No really. You have got to be joking. *facepalm* Jesus.

Or the English of the Irish when the troubles kicked off.

Nope, much more like when the English plantations of Ireland kicked off. Another religious right level of BS attached to a cleverly planned land grab. To hell or Connaught/To hell or Gaza.

No? Look at a map of Israel showing the Israeli areas and the Arab areas. Look at one from 1950. Look at a map of Israel from today. This simple graphic will show even the most blinkered that the Israelis have been utter pricks to the locals.

Someone mentioned Aparthied South Africa. Funny, one of the few nations that kept in major contact with the SA regime when everyone else saw them as pariahs were the? Yep the Israelis. Involved in their military too.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Wibbs wrote: »

No? Look at a map of Israel showing the Israeli areas and the Arab areas. Look at one from 1950. Look at a map of Israel from today. This simple graphic will show even the most blinkered that the Israelis have been utter pricks to the locals.

Yes, forgetting lands lost to Israel when their Arab neighbours invaded (and lost) in 1967.. You're forgetting the majority of Israeli wars and the spoils of their victories were in wars initiated by their neighbours.

Wibbs wrote: »

Someone mentioned Aparthied South Africa. Funny, one of the few nations that kept in major contact with the SA regime when everyone else saw them as pariahs were the? Yep the Israelis. Involved in their military too.

This might be a better comparison to apartheid South Africa..

"Israel is an apartheid state" is a tired old sound bite we regularly hear regurgitated by anti-Israel activists. Their aim is to delegitimise the existence of Israel by equating it with apartheid-era South Africa. While the simple slogan appears attractive to those not used to exercising their critical thinking abilities, the analogy falls apart under closer scrutiny. Maybe they’re hoping that if a lie is repeated often enough it will become truth. The only way to combat ignorance is with education so allow me to present several reasons why it’s factually incorrect to label Israel an apartheid state.

Politics
One of the defining characteristics of apartheid in South Africa was the denial of the vote for blacks. Arab Israelis, meanwhile, enjoy full voting rights and representation in government. Some of the Arab political parties present in the Knesset include Balad, Hadash (a mixed Jewish and Arab socialist party) and the United Arab List. Arabs have even reached cabinet level of government, with Raleb Majadele becoming the first in 2007. Arabs currently constitute approximately 10% of ministers in the national parliament.

Education
In apartheid South Africa, blacks and whites had to be educated separately by law. This is not the case in Israel, where Jews and Arabs have the option to attend mixed schools. Yes, separate Jewish schools do exist that specialise in a religious education (the same way Ireland has “Catholic” schools), but as Israel is a signatory of the Convention against Discrimination in Education, Arabs are free to enrol in such institutions if they wish. In practice however, the language barrier means that Arabs opt to attend classes in Arabic while their Jewish counterparts are educated separately in Hebrew. Meanwhile under Hamas controlled Gaza, gender segregation is mandatory. Such is the norm in many Islamic countries. In Iraq, for example, boys and girls are required by law to study separately after age 12.

Gay and women’s rights
Israeli Arabs enjoy political freedoms that are unknown in the Arab world. While homosexuals can still legally be executed in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the UAE, gay men and women in Israel don’t have to hide in the closet for fear of being hanged. Tel Aviv has a thriving LGBT scene and even markets itself as a gay tourist destination.

It is feared that the recent upsurge of the Muslim Brotherhood post-Arab Spring has been a step back for women’s rights across the wider Arab world. No such worries in Israel where the law prohibits discrimination based on gender and women enjoy equal status with men, including simple things that we take for granted in the West such as the right to vote and the right to drive (both currently denied in Saudi Arabia). And don’t get me started on the Saudis’ bizarre gender segregation laws. Now there’s real apartheid.

Pop culture
People from all creeds and colours enjoy success in Israel, as evident by the pop culture scene. The national football team includes Arab Muslims like Maharan Radi. Miss Israel 2013 is a black Ethiopian. An Arab Christian, Lina Makhoul, was the 2013 winner of The Voice Israel.

I have spent a significant amount of time in Israel and I have never seen any separate toilets for Arabs and Jews as was the case with blacks and whites in apartheid South Africa. Nor are there separate restaurants. The apartheid mantra falls at every hurdle. Even the most ardent opponents of Israel cannot deny the facts. Israel is a bastion of multiculturalism. Jews, Arabs, Bedouin, and Druze – all call Israel home. Would Jews be as welcome in a neighbouring Arab country? Recent historical events like the Naqba suggest no. It’s okay to have an open debate critical of Israeli domestic and foreign policy, but let’s at least keep it honest and grounded in facts. Twisted truths and apartheid myths only serve to muddy the waters.

Nodin

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

Yes, forgetting lands lost to Israel when their Arab neighbours invaded (and lost) in 1967.. You're forgetting the majority of Israeli wars and the spoils of their victories were in wars initiated by their neighbours.



This might be a better comparison to apartheid South Africa..

"Israel is an apartheid state" (..........)to muddy the waters.

Which would be all well and good if same applied in the OT. However that's not the case, and as Israel is the controlling power, the analogy becomes apt once more.

mad muffin

Wibbs wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? No really. You have got to be joking. *facepalm* Jesus.

Am I stating untruths?

The travelling community is ostracised, marginalised, vilanised and treated as second class where ever they go.

Most Irish if they could would segregate them. In fact Israel's Arabs and Palestinians are treated better than in most Arab countries. God forbid if you are a woman or gay in most of the Arab countries. And if you are a Jew in an Arab country, forget about it.

Compu Global Hyper Meganet

Wibbs wrote: »

It didn't. Anti Jewish laws and deportations of Jews, theft of Jewish assets, businesses and property, beatings and killings of Jews in the street all kicked off with official support in the mid 30's on. The "final solution to the Jewish problem" as they so coldly put it only got going after the war kicked off and really on started in earnest in 1942-43 onwards.

Yes comparing Israel's actions to the nazi Holocaust is so over the top you'd need the Hubble to track it. However the Nazi's policies in the mid 30's would be a little more comparable. The fact is Palestinians are second class citizens in a country that used to be theirs up to 60 years ago. Land has been stolen from them. They have been pushed into ever smaller enclaves.

Are you having a laugh? No really. You have got to be joking. *facepalm* Jesus.

Nope, much more like when the English plantations of Ireland kicked off. Another religious right level of BS attached to a cleverly planned land grab. To hell or Connaught/To hell or Gaza.

No? Look at a map of Israel showing the Israeli areas and the Arab areas. Look at one from 1950. Look at a map of Israel from today. This simple graphic will show even the most blinkered that the Israelis have been utter pricks to the locals.

Someone mentioned Aparthied South Africa. Funny, one of the few nations that kept in major contact with the SA regime when everyone else saw them as pariahs were the? Yep the Israelis. Involved in their military too.

If anything it's worse. At least England was a legitimate sovereign nation recognised by the international community. Israel is nothing more than a terrorist organisation, like Al-Quaeda. Yet their having nuclear capabilities is seen as acceptable in comparison to a democratically elected government in Iran. Laughable really. How anyone can defend them is beyond comprehension.

mad muffin

Compu Global Hyper Meganet wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, much more like when the English plantations of Ireland kicked off. Another religious right level of BS attached to a cleverly planned land grab. To hell or Connaught/To hell or Gaza.


If anything it's worse. At least England was a legitimate sovereign nation recognised by the international community. Israel is nothing more than a terrorist organisation, like Al-Quaeda. Yet their having nuclear capabilities is seen as acceptable in comparison to a democratically elected government in Iran. Laughable really. How anyone can defend them is beyond comprehension.

Lol

A Dub in Glasgo

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

"Israel is an apartheid state" is a tired old sound bite we regularly hear regurgitated by anti-Israel activists.

I prefer this one. Nearly 5 years ago as well

Crea

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

And he lived in S.A. too?... (I know the answer).

What has that to do with anything? It is possible to study aparthied South Africa.

Crea

Well certainly Palestinians don't have equal rights as Jewish Israelis. They don't have the same access to transport, jobs, hospitals, shops, hotels etc. To say otherwise is lies.

smurgen

I think the biggest danger to Israeli people are the extremist , pro-Zionist groups within there own community. They are looking increasingly aggressive every day and their hatred of the Palestinian's is almost blatant now. they are successfully brainwashing normal Israeli citizens into thinking the world hates them and in turn they are becoming increasingly isolated from the world.it's a pity.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

Which would be all well and good if same applied in the OT. However that's not the case, and as Israel is the controlling power, the analogy becomes apt once more.

Oh if you want to talk about controlling powers and comparisons with apartheid S.A. we can look at the treatment of Palestinians BY Palestinians in both Gaza and the Palestinian authorities in the W.B. ~ or look further afield in the Arab world were they're treated with absolute distain in places like Lebanon etc.

By Jesus as tough as it is to neighbour and be at war with Israel is, the daily hardships imposed by their (Pals) own elected governments pales in comparison and well you and every educated person here knows it.

So can you debate the other comparsions I've made, ie education, racial segregation, gay rights etc?.

Eight Ball

Agree with every single word he says. The modern Jewish state has a lot to answer for as their crimes are wide and varied. Shame on them you would have imagined they would know better given the atrocities carried out against them.

mad muffin

smurgen wrote: »

I think the biggest danger to Israeli people are the extremist , pro-Zionist groups within there own community. They are looking increasingly aggressive every day and their hatred of the Palestinian's is almost blatant now. they are successfully brainwashing normal Israeli citizens into thinking the world hates them and in turn they are becoming increasingly isolated from the world.it's a pity.

This is true. The hardcore religious zealots have a firm grip around the throats of the ordinary Israel's citizen. Hell most if them wouldn't even consider them real Jews. They're as fanatical as the extreme Muslim zealot.

Hagar the Nice.

mad muffin wrote: »

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is over the top. They are incomparable.

I would compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians more to Ireland's treatment of the travelling community.

Or the English of the Irish when the troubles kicked off.

Mad,totally mad..

Sulla Felix

I don't why we need a comparison to apartheid SA or NAZI Germany. Israel, like most modern states, has plenty of skeletons that can stand on their own two feet to be condemned. Likewise for the Palestinians.
Anyone trying to paint the situation, from either perspective, as black and white is a liar or a fool.

Nodin

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

Oh if you want to talk about controlling powers and comparisons with apartheid S.A. we can look at the treatment of Palestinians BY Palestinians in both Gaza and the Palestinian authorities in the W.B. ~ or look further afield in the Arab world were they're treated with absolute distain in places like Lebanon etc.

By Jesus as tough as it is to neighbour and be at war with Israel is, the daily hardships imposed by their (Pals) own elected governments pales in comparison and well you and every educated person here knows it.

So can you debate the other comparsions I've made, ie education, racial segregation, gay rights etc?.

I answered that in
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88016889&postcount=16

They aren't just sitting there manning checkpoints for the craic. They're colonising the place. That's a red line. I don't give a rat's ass if they were only going to have a state for a few decades before having a housing bubble and owing the whole lot to ze Germans - they're entitled to a state of their own, without the neighbours lunatics onboard.

Wibbs

Xzavier Quaint Comic wrote: »

Yes, forgetting lands lost to Israel when their Arab neighbours invaded (and lost) in 1967.. You're forgetting the majority of Israeli wars and the spoils of their victories were in wars initiated by their neighbours.

Are you seriously claiming that Israel hasn't taken Palestinian land since 1950 and continues to do so today? If you are I'd suggest you ask the UN cos there are few open cases against Israel in their law files.

mad muffin wrote:

Am I stating untruths?

The travelling community is ostracised, marginalised, vilanised and treated as second class where ever they go.

If you are comparing Travelers with the Arabs in Israel then yes you are having a laugh. The Traveling community in Ireland is heavily subsidised by government coffers and have access to every service of any Irish citizen, whether they chose to use such or not.

brimal

Crea wrote: »

My brother lives in Israel. He says it's more like aparthied South Africa.

BTW it's currently snowing in Bethlehem.

I live in Israel. I say it's not like apartheid South Africa.

BTW it's pissing rain in Tel Aviv.

DeadHand

@Compu Global Hyper Meganet

Whatever else it is, Israel is a state recognised by 83% of UN members. That's every European member, every country in the Americas bar Cuba, every country in Oceania, the majority of African countries and the majority of Asian countries.

Those that do not recognise it include such stable, progressive bastions of human rights as: North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Pakistan and Iran.

I'd rather live in Tel Aviv any day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Recognition_of_Israel.svg