Vigilantism

RustyNut · 13-12-2013 03:24PM

bumper234 wrote: »

But what happens when an innocent person DOES get killed? You haven't answered whether you would commit these killings yourself or expect others to do the dirty work.

This

KERSPLAT! · 13-12-2013 03:27PM

bit monkey wrote: »

Some people are too quick to act. Stupid even. There would have to be absolutely no doubt and a ton of evidence to back it up.

You can't just go around killing 'potential' drug dealers.

I know you'll say 'but still, innocents are killed'. I don't believe with the right preparation you can harm someone who's innocent.

It would be fairly obvious....I'd imagine.

The right preparation? Something like a court case with judges and solicitors/lawyers? Have no innocent people ever been jailed?

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:27PM

RustyNut wrote: »

This

While this has some relevance as a whole on the theme of vigilantism.

What about in terms of 'cleaning up' Dublin city..

Half the junkies etc are on show for all to see.

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:29PM

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

The right preparation? Something like a court case with judges and solicitors/lawyers? Have no innocent people ever been jailed?

As I said, it would be fairly obvious to determine a drug dealer (I edited my post).

Of course they have been, but you can't deny there would be ample opportunity in Dublin city for a vigilante to carry out certain tasks on the 'right' people.

As I said, it's obvious.

jmayo · 13-12-2013 03:29PM

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Where's Charles Bronson when he's needed ?

eh sorry he is dead.

But there is a guy down in Mayo who might fill in for him.
PS he will need new shotgun and ammo.

KyussBishop wrote: »

They aren't, but if you have sensible social policies, and a will funded AGS, you don't need or want any vigilantism.

No use having well funded AGS when the lily livered justice system let people off with slaps on wrist and the prison system isn't capable of handling more and for longer.

bumper234 wrote: »

So again i ask you what happens WHEN an innocent person gets killed?

What happens at the moment ?

bumper234 wrote: »

LOL at internet warriors, have you ever killed anyone? Do you think it's like in the movies where you just pull the trigger and live happily ever after?

How do you know who you are talking to on the net.

And how do you know that people don't live happily ever after ?
Is there something you would like to get off your chest ?

bumper234 wrote: »

Who decides who dies? Do you hold a special little kangaroo court? Will you model yourself on the Nazi ideals or the KKK?

What about a left organisation instead ?
You do know that not all bad things were done by right wing racists, right ?

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 03:30PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

No one mentioned Irish ministers...

Collateral damage is damage that is incidental to the intended target.

The US government/military actively use the term where it can refer to the incidental destruction of civilian property and/or non-combatant casualties.

Maybe you should go off and attack the American junkies then, see how well you do there.

Dravokivich · 13-12-2013 03:32PM

bit monkey wrote: »

As I said, it would be fairly obvious to determine a drug dealer (I edited my post).

Of course they have been, but you can't deny there would be ample opportunity in Dublin city for a vigilante to carry out certain tasks on the 'right' people.

As I said, it's obvious.

What's the use. You take out a dealer, another will come along because there's going to be people there who want drugs. You take down the next dealer, the following one will bring a mob himself. Congrats, you've just asked the public to get involved in violent gangs.

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 03:33PM

bit monkey wrote: »

Some people are too quick to act. Stupid even. There would have to be absolutely no doubt and a ton of evidence to back it up.

You can't just go around killing 'potential' drug dealers.

I know you'll say 'but still, innocents are killed'. I don't believe with the right preparation you can harm someone who's innocent.

It would be fairly obvious - to determine a drug dealer....I'd imagine.

Who decides? What if i accuse someone i dislike of being a drug dealer are you and your gang gonna kick his door in and give him a hiding?

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 03:34PM

bit monkey wrote: »

While this has some relevance as a whole on the theme of vigilantism.

What about in terms of 'cleaning up' Dublin city..

Half the junkies etc are on show for all to see.

So how do you "clean" it up? By killing them? Push them out of the city someone said....ok where do you live lets push them to there.

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 03:35PM

bit monkey wrote: »

As I said, it would be fairly obvious to determine a drug dealer (I edited my post).

Of course they have been, but you can't deny there would be ample opportunity in Dublin city for a vigilante to carry out certain tasks on the 'right' people.

As I said, it's obvious.

Again....who decides who "the right people" are?

MonstaMash · 13-12-2013 03:38PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Maybe you should go off and attack the American junkies then, see how well you do there.

Maybe you should learn to debate issues rather than taking umbrage & getting personal at someone else's opinion bumper234

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:40PM

bumper234 wrote: »

LOL at internet warriors, have you ever killed anyone? Do you think it's like in the movies where you just pull the trigger and live happily ever after? Who decides who dies? Do you hold a special little kangaroo court? Will you model yourself on the Nazi ideals or the KKK?

You asked the question.

Who decides? I thought that was obvious - the vigilantes.

Besides, this is slightly off topic. I wasn't originally condoning killing anyone until another poster mentioned what they did in Bangkok. Vigilantism doesn't mean you have to kill.

You didn't seem to have a good argument to make about the original post/question, but that post provided you with the ammunition to twist it into 'killing is the answer regardless'. I never said that.

It's a classic do-gooder tactic.

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:41PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Again....who decides who "the right people" are?

Again. It's easy to determine a drug dealer. So in this case - the vigilante group decides.

I thought this was obvious seeing as how we're talking about vigilante's.

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:42PM

bumper234 wrote: »

So how do you "clean" it up? By killing them? Push them out of the city someone said....ok where do you live lets push them to there.

I never said killing is the answer as a whole. Words in my mouth.

Arrow. · 13-12-2013 03:43PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Who decides? What if i accuse someone i dislike of being a drug dealer are you and your gang gonna kick his door in and give him a hiding?

I'd be stupid to go on your word alone. Read my previous posts. I've already answered that.

KERSPLAT! · 13-12-2013 03:45PM

And what if the vigilantes get it wrong? If the state can get it wrong I'd imagine a few thugs going around cracking skulls could get it wrong on occasion. You say it's obvious who the drug dealers are, I disagree.

r3nu4l · 13-12-2013 03:47PM

I almost became a victim of a vigilante group in Dublin when I was 13. My crime?

I was walking to a friends house at 9.30 at night to give back a book I had borrowed and try to get an answer to some school homework for the next day

Apparently, according to the group of grown men (armed with hurley sticks) that surrounded me, it was 'suspicious' that I was out and about at that time and could only be 'up to no good'. They stopped me in a laneway between two roads in my estate. They started asking me questions and shoving me about a bit. One of them even grabbed me around the throat. I was sh1tting myself.

Thankfully someone who lived on one side of the lane and was putting out his bins realised what was going on and recognised me. My family's name and my saviour's reputation in the community got me out of 'trouble'.

These 'vigilantes' are nothing but law-breaking thugs and don't deserve citizenship. I know that the law doesn't get it right and Gardaí have their hands tied most of the time but that doesn't excuse their own law-breaking, threatening and assaulting a 13 year old boy. Big hard men, the lot of them. So much for respecting their country and 'protecting; their community. I've seen some of them sometimes when I returned home and when I've approached them about it, thankfully, they have all to a man had the decency to apologise and admit they were morons.

I also remember some of the same idiots being involved in protests against drug dealers and standing outside their houses and shaming them into leaving the community. Funnily enough, another dealer who was known to be paying a 'tax' on his earnings was never protested away and one was allowed to stay when he began to pay his 'tax'... Real heroes these vigilantes...upstanding, moral, pillars of the community...

KyussBishop · 13-12-2013 03:47PM

jmayo wrote: »

No use having well funded AGS when the lily livered justice system let people off with slaps on wrist and the prison system isn't capable of handling more and for longer.

Then fix the justice system too - not resort to ridiculous vigilante justice.

Dravokivich · 13-12-2013 04:02PM

bit monkey wrote: »

You asked the question.

Who decides? I thought that was obvious - the vigilantes.

Besides, this is slightly off topic. I wasn't originally condoning killing anyone until another poster mentioned what they did in Bangkok. Vigilantism doesn't mean you have to kill.

You didn't seem to have a good argument to make about the original post/question, but that post provided you with the ammunition to twist it into 'killing is the answer regardless'. I never said that.

It's a classic do-gooder tactic.

The problem is with vigilantism is all underlined parts of your quote. There is no control, or inhibitions with a self righteous mob. They act as the Jury and become the Judge, the Sentencer and under tragic circumstances the Executioner.

bit monkey wrote: »

I'd be stupid to go on your word alone. Read my previous posts. I've already answered that.

Who's word? Your own investigations into allegations? What are you Batman? What skills do you have in analysing data/facts/clues/various evidence and presenting the proof of it?

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 04:03PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

Maybe you should learn to debate issues rather than taking umbrage & getting personal at someone else's opinion bumper234

Am not taking anything, he stated that "governments used the words collateral damage" but not his government.

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 04:06PM

bit monkey wrote: »

You asked the question.

Who decides? I thought that was obvious - the vigilantes.

Besides, this is slightly off topic. I wasn't originally condoning killing anyone until another poster mentioned what they did in Bangkok. Vigilantism doesn't mean you have to kill.

You didn't seem to have a good argument to make about the original post/question, but that post provided you with the ammunition to twist it into 'killing is the answer regardless'. I never said that.

It's a classic do-gooder tactic.

Lol at calling me a do gooder.

I am asking how far you go? Do you just tell the junkies to move on? What hapens when they say no? Do you give them a bit of a slap? A few punches? A kicking? What happens when one gets a slap, falls and cracks his/her head and dies|?

Yes i know this is a lot of "What if" but it COULD happen, would you be ok with it?

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 04:07PM

bit monkey wrote: »

I never said killing is the answer as a whole. Words in my mouth.

bit monkey wrote: »

I'd be stupid to go on your word alone. Read my previous posts. I've already answered that.

So your little gang would set up a kangaroo court and decide the fate of people:rolleyes:

IK09 · 13-12-2013 04:10PM

I carry a baseball bat in my car and have one in the house.

I decided this after my car was broken into, my house was egged, and I witnessed a girl get knocked out by a fella while I was sitting in traffic (took off after him but wasnt going to leave my car unattended in the middle of the road either).

I feel as a person (not just a citizen) that I have the right to defend both myself and the weak. No exceptions. If I see some scumbag throwing his weight around, he is going to get it.

Soft Falling Rain · 13-12-2013 04:23PM

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

I could re-write your message and simply swap the protagonists around. I would estimate it is more likely a scumbag will do harm than a neighbourhood group protecting their area.

Do you think the statusw quo is working at the moment? Ever walked down Talbot Street? Or do you prefer innocent members of the public be menaced? I say lets start knocking some heads. Any trouble i have ever had with scumbags usually dissipates when they realise i am ready to take them on. Bunch of weak pansies

Many a time, in pitch darkness too. Never accosted in any way.

The problem with vigilantism is when the vigilantes begin to see wrongdoing where there is none.

tigger123 · 13-12-2013 04:23PM

Dublins a fairly safe place to live, can't really see the need for vigilantism. You'd swear it was New York in the 70s the way some people are posting.

tigger123 · 13-12-2013 04:25PM

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

I could re-write your message and simply swap the protagonists around. I would estimate it is more likely a scumbag will do harm than a neighbourhood group protecting their area.

Do you think the statusw quo is working at the moment? Ever walked down Talbot Street? Or do you prefer innocent members of the public be menaced? I say lets start knocking some heads. Any trouble i have ever had with scumbags usually dissipates when they realise i am ready to take them on. Bunch of weak pansies

There's a great new French restaurant on Talbot Street actually, apparently its doing a roaring trade.

bumper234 · 13-12-2013 04:26PM

IK09 wrote: »

I carry a baseball bat in my car and have one in the house.

I decided this after my car was broken into, my house was egged, and I witnessed a girl get knocked out by a fella while I was sitting in traffic (took off after him but wasnt going to leave my car unattended in the middle of the road either).

I feel as a person (not just a citizen) that I have the right to defend both myself and the weak. No exceptions. If I see some scumbag throwing his weight around, he is going to get it.

When was the last time you saw a junkie "throwing his weight around"? seriously most of them weigh 7 stone and haven't the strength to cough.:rolleyes:

jimgoose · 13-12-2013 04:28PM

There's only one thing worse than a city-centre being a no-go area at certain times because of antisocial ne'er-do-wells, and that is one just and innocent man being beaten by his fellow well-meaning citizens due to a mistake.

HomelessMidge · 13-12-2013 04:31PM

Eugene Fit Blonde wrote: »

The capitol is in ruins with junkie thieving scum & no one gives a tupennys f*ck about doing anything about it.

What an over reaction, most of Europe is far worse than Dublin City! What part of the city are you from?

jmayo · 13-12-2013 04:50PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Then fix the justice system too - not resort to ridiculous vigilante justice.

Yeah right.
This was the justice system where a judge could not be fired even though child porn was found on his computer.
And yes it was found, the only thing that prevented him from having a criminal record was a technicality in the warrant used by the Gardaí.
He is still a pervert.

This would also be the justice system where a referendum had to be held just to get the judges to take a pay cut like everyone else who are state employees.

This would be the justice system where white collar criminals, guilty of things like running ponzi schemes (at least one person has admitted their guilt to victims), do not end up before a court for years.

This would be the justice system where a judge dishes out 5 plus year consecutive sentences to people dodging import tarrifs, whilst at the same time dishing out none custodial suspended sentences to sex attackers.

What do people do whilst we are trying to get politicans, often solicitors and barristers, to reform the justice system ?
Do we cower in a shed waiting for someone to atack us or we do the right thing for our own safety?

Vigilantism

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