Vigilantism

Arrow.

So I was reading this thread in the Dublin forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057100600

Seems a lot of people feel feel hopeless for the city and what it's become. The Gardai don't seem to be doing anything about it.

Say a group of people (vigilante group essentially) got together to secretly patrol Dublin to deal with junkies and scumbags - not violently I might add, but rather 'usher' them on an warn them the first couple of times and let them know what will happen if they don't adhere. I know how all this sounds!

Would you feel safer in Dublin?

Do you think there's ever a good reason for this kind of behaviour from such groups? Think neighbour watch with possible force I guess.

While it seems to be they're allowed act how they want in the city without recourse, until the law is forced to act, what's the solution? Is vigilantism ever a solution?

Not sure how I feel about it to be honest. It's a dangerous road to go down. However, if it was me who'd been mugged/beaten etc, I'd want revenge...in spades.

What does boards think?

Femme_Fatale

Torn between the "It'd end up being abused" (which it would) reasoning and the "It's great when some intimidating sh1tbag subjecting others to misery and terror with impunity finally gets their comeuppance" reasoning.

Arrow.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Torn between the "It'd end up being abused" (which it would) reasoning and the "It's great when some intimidating sh1tbag subjecting others to misery and terror with impunity finally gets their comeuppance" reasoning.

That's how I feel. Bit of a double edged sword.

I suppose if such a group were to exist then they'd have to adhere to a code and would need to take action against people abusing it.

Also, they'd have to act very stealthy-like. Maybe if you just knew 'someone' was out there....watching...a dark knight!

WilyCoyote

Bus the lowlifes down to Templemore for a bit of baton training with the rookie guards

Dyr

Ah i remember the good old days of standing around a barrell fire keeping junkies out of the neighborhood. It doesn't really work

Stone Deaf 4evr

As a wise billionaire once said

"It's not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us"*



*may have psychological scarring as a result of seeing his parents murdered in front of him.

moxin

We need The_Citizen to lead us!

Muise...

bit monkey wrote: »

Say a group of people (vigilante group essentially) got together to secretly patrol Dublin to deal with junkies and scumbags - not violently I might add, but rather 'usher' them on an warn them the first couple of times and let them know what will happen if they don't adhere. I know how all this sounds!

Where would your ninja vigilantes usher them? Would it not turn into a giant game of Junkie-Pong?

RustyNut

This is the way that sort of thing evolved in the 80's.

Arrow.

Muise... wrote: »

Where would your ninja vigilantes usher them? Would it not turn into a giant game of Junkie-Pong?

Further out of the city, the docks, I dunno.

Look, I clearly haven't thought this through so I'll just say it's more a thread on vigilantism than the finer details of where to push junkies to.

Yellow121

We need a group similar to this but take it to the big stage. Take over the state. Undesirables such as thieving bankers will be executed, junkies sterilised and others shipped off to sea.
A new Ireland, come on lets do this. Who's with me?

Arrow.

Yellow121 wrote: »

We need a group similar to this but take it to the big stage. Take over the state. Undesirables such as thieving bankers will be executed, junkies sterilised and others shipped off to sea.
A new Ireland, come on lets do this. Who's with me?

OK...but you go first.

My name is URL

Whatever about having a show of force such as that, which may put prospective criminals off acting.. I don't think 'ushering' junkies from one area to another is really going to solve anything. They're still gonna be junkies and they're still going to need to feed their habits... it'd just end up being done in a far less visible way, which could be even worse for the people they end up victimising.

There's a group of people in the village where I live who take turns doing patrols of the area. They're not vigilantes per se, all they do is keep an eye out for any suspicious behaviour and call Gardai if they spot anything. They also monitor car parks during mass etc after a spate of car break-ins. Seems to be doing the job in all fairness.

Yellow121

bit monkey wrote: »

OK...but you go first.

Ok, I'm going to break into the Dáil tomorrow morning, 11am sharp. You don't need to worry about how I get in but be there on time and charge in. We'll occupy the place and I'll have weapons and stuff. When the government come back for work they wont know what's going on hehehehe.
Then we'll make our demands, if they're not met we will anounce all out war. Make sure you're there at 11am sharp alright everyone?
Oh I'll bring some food as well, some sandwiches and maybe a few cans of Guinness, so we'll have some craic as well. I'm a great leader.

RustyNut

Yellow121 wrote: »

We need a group similar to this but take it to the big stage. Take over the state. Undesirables such as thieving bankers will be executed, junkies sterilised and others shipped off to sea.
A new Ireland, come on lets do this. Who's with me?

First they came for the bankers, then they came for the yellow people.

super_furry

bit monkey wrote: »

Seems a lot of people feel feel hopeless for the city and what it's become.

Seems a lot of people are over-reacting bed wetters who'd run a mile if anyone wearing a pair of trainers so much as looks at them. Compared to most other major cities throughout the world, Dublin is grand.

MonstaMash

Vigilantism without violence, or the implied threat of willingness to commit violence, would be as useful as a pacifist in a fire-fight IMHO

Arrow.

super_furry wrote: »

Seems a lot of people are over-reacting bed wetters who'd run a mile if anyone wearing a pair of trainers so much as looks at them. Compared to most other major cities throughout the world, Dublin is grand.

Yeah I don't think it's as bad at all as some people say.

arybvtcw0eolkf

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Bus the lowlifes down to Templemore

During the boom times when AGS found it hard to recruit well educated and motivated members of the public to its ranks it took the dregs & lowlifes ~ which is one of the reasons we regularly read of members of AGS before the courts, so you see the low lifes did go to Templemore.

Plus there's not the political will to tackle the problem of open drug dealing on the capitols streets, there's no enough money to send the more serious cases to anywhere about district court level ~ so these guys and girls can have from dozens into the hundreds of convictions recorded against them and not give a toss.

The capitol is in ruins with junkie thieving scum & no one gives a tupennys f*ck about doing anything about it.

Personally I'd turn a blind eye to the proper group smashing a few heads for the greater good.

bumper234

Eugene Fit Blonde wrote: »

During the boom times when AGS found it hard to recruit well educated and motivated members of the public to its ranks it took the dregs & lowlifes ~ which is one of the reasons we regularly read of members of AGS before the courts, so you see the low lifes did go to Templemore.

Plus there's not the political will to tackle the problem of open drug dealing on the capitols streets, there's no enough money to send the more serious cases to anywhere about district court level ~ so these guys and girls can have from dozens into the hundreds of convictions recorded against them and not give a toss.

The capitol is in ruins with junkie thieving scum & no one gives a tupennys f*ck about doing anything about it.

Personally I'd turn a blind eye to the proper group smashing a few heads for the greater good.

And the moment someone dies?

MonstaMash

bumper234 wrote: »

And the moment someone dies?

One less statistic to deal with :eek:

Guy:Incognito

bit monkey wrote: »

Further out of the city, the docks, I dunno.

About 50 yards beyond the docks would do nicely. :-)

gramar

bit monkey wrote: »

That's how I feel. Bit of a double edged sword.

If you want people to take vigilantes seriously then that's exactly what you need.

Splat Strawberry Jam

bumper234 wrote: »

And the moment someone dies?

If you're going to make an omlette you have to break some eggs.

JimsAlterEgo

do what thailand allegedly did a few years back, a supposed "vigilante" group (rumour has it was govt sanctioned) wiped out all drug lords and addicts. Very quickly everyone was afriad to have anything to do with drugs.

P.Walnuts

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

do what thailand allegedly did a few years back, a supposed "vigilante" group (rumour has it was govt sanctioned) wiped out all drug lords and addicts. Very quickly everyone was afriad to have anything to do with drugs.

Ah yes wonderful Thailand, where you are 4 times more likely to be murdered than in Ireland.

Arrow.

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

do what thailand allegedly did a few years back, a supposed "vigilante" group (rumour has it was govt sanctioned) wiped out all drug lords and addicts. Very quickly everyone was afriad to have anything to do with drugs.

Exactly.

These so called 'drug lords' are just people. These guys are built up in the press as some kind of 'untouchables'. People are easily dealt with if the will is there.

Hitchens

It's alright until somebody loses an eye :rolleyes:

Smyth

bit monkey wrote: »

Exactly.

These so called 'drug lords' are just people too. People can be easily dealt with if the the will is there.

But then where will we get our precious drugs?

bumper234

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

If you're going to make an omlette you have to break some eggs.

Cool, and what happens when someone (not a junkie) gets set upon by a group because they "look" like they are going to commit a crime? What happens when mob mentality takes over and what starts out as a few slaps turns into the dead body of some innocent person?

Hedgemeister

Where's Charles Bronson when he's needed ?

Arrow.

Smyth wrote: »

But then where will we get our precious drugs?

You can grow your own for self consumption.

Arrow.

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Where's Charles Bronson when he's needed ?

Last I heard he was on his way down to Emmet's fix-it shop.

bumper234

bit monkey wrote: »

Exactly.

These so called 'drug lords' are just people. These guys are built up in the press as some kind of 'untouchables'. People are easily dealt with if the will is there.

So you think murder is the answer? Would you commit these murders yourself or would you expect someone else to do it? If you do commit the murders yourself what then makes you better than the junkies and drug dealers?

Arrow.

bumper234 wrote: »

So you think murder is the answer? Would you commit these murders yourself or would you expect someone else to do it? If you do commit the murders yourself what then makes you better than the junkies and drug dealers?

I'd be better because I'm not profiting on the misery of others. I don't intimidate, steal, sell drugs - contributing to the deaths of innocents while heaping misery on their families.

Can you really not tell the difference?

Also, I'm not saying vigilantism is the answer. Just playing devil's advocate to a degree. Read my OP again.

arybvtcw0eolkf

bumper234 wrote: »

And the moment someone dies?

And............ (where's the punchline /pardon the pun)?.

Splat Strawberry Jam

bumper234 wrote: »

Cool, and what happens when someone (not a junkie) gets set upon by a group because they "look" like they are going to commit a crime? What happens when mob mentality takes over and what starts out as a few slaps turns into the dead body of some innocent person?

I could re-write your message and simply swap the protagonists around. I would estimate it is more likely a scumbag will do harm than a neighbourhood group protecting their area.

Do you think the statusw quo is working at the moment? Ever walked down Talbot Street? Or do you prefer innocent members of the public be menaced? I say lets start knocking some heads. Any trouble i have ever had with scumbags usually dissipates when they realise i am ready to take them on. Bunch of weak pansies

MonstaMash

bumper234 wrote: »

Cool, and what happens when someone (not a junkie) gets set upon by a group because they "look" like they are going to commit a crime? What happens when mob mentality takes over and what starts out as a few slaps turns into the dead body of some innocent person?

Collateral damage...if it's OK for governments to abuse the term, why not vigilantes?

KyussBishop

Why are people generally (here and in that other thread) so shortsighted, so as to not see it's a problem created by a general lack of jobs and future-prospects for a lot of people, and that the solution is to provide adequate employment and educational opportunities, so people don't resort to or fall into crime and drug-taking/dealing?

These 'scumbags/junkies', i.e. people, are capable of actually contributing usefully to society, if actually give the opportunity - some of them will probably be stuck in their ways and need more effort to reform, but you're sure as hell not going to reform any of them, unless you get them jobs, and thus the ability to have some non-homeless/drug-dealing based future prospects.

Government has all the ability and funding capabilities it needs, to provide ample jobs (with a large jobs program), and boost public services, including AGS and drug/health/mental-health treatment, needed for resolving all of this.

These are real solutions, not shortsighted ones that only move the problem around, or just deal with symptomatic problems rather than root problems.

iDave

KyussBishop wrote: »

Why are people generally (here and in that other thread) so shortsighted, so as to not see it's a problem created by a general lack of jobs and future-prospects for a lot of people, and that the solution is to provide adequate employment and educational opportunities, so people don't resort to or fall into crime and drug-taking/dealing?

These 'scumbags/junkies', i.e. people, are capable of actually contributing usefully to society, if actually give the opportunity - some of them will probably be stuck in their ways and need more effort to reform, but you're sure as hell not going to reform any of them, unless you get them jobs, and thus the ability to have some non-homeless/drug-dealing based future prospects.

Government has all the ability and funding capabilities it needs, to provide ample jobs (with a large jobs program), and boost public services, including AGS and drug/health/mental-health treatment, needed for resolving all of this.

These are real solutions, not shortsighted ones that only move the problem around, or just deal with symptomatic problems rather than root problems.

I wish it was that simple but a lot these people existed when jobs were in abundance.

bumper234

bit monkey wrote: »

I'd be better because I'm not profiting on the misery of others. I don't intimidate, steal, sell drugs - contributing to the deaths of innocents while heaping misery on their families.

Can you really not tell the difference?

Also, I'm not saying vigilantism is the answer. Just playing devil's advocate to a degree. Read my OP again.

But what happens when an innocent person DOES get killed? You haven't answered whether you would commit these killings yourself or expect others to do the dirty work.

Splat Strawberry Jam

KyussBishop wrote: »

Why are people generally (here and in that other thread) so shortsighted, so as to not see it's a problem created by a general lack of jobs and future-prospects for a lot of people, and that the solution is to provide adequate employment and educational opportunities, so people don't resort to or fall into crime and drug-taking/dealing?

These 'scumbags/junkies', i.e. people, are capable of actually contributing usefully to society, if actually give the opportunity - some of them will probably be stuck in their ways and need more effort to reform, but you're sure as hell not going to reform any of them, unless you get them jobs, and thus the ability to have some non-homeless/drug-dealing based future prospects.

Government has all the ability and funding capabilities it needs, to provide ample jobs (with a large jobs program), and boost public services, including AGS and drug/health/mental-health treatment, needed for resolving all of this.

These are real solutions, not shortsighted ones that only move the problem around, or just deal with symptomatic problems rather than root problems.

I dont think sensible social policies and zero tolerance need to be mutually exclusive

arybvtcw0eolkf

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

Do you think the statusw quo is working at the moment? Ever walked down Talbot Street? Or do you prefer innocent members of the public be menaced? I say lets start knocking some heads. Any trouble i have ever had with scumbags usually dissipates when they realise i am ready to take them on. Bunch of weak pansies

If that was you kicking the heads off the two junkie scum in the famous "leave it out" video I salute you sir :cool:

KyussBishop

iDave wrote: »

I wish it was that simple but a lot these people existed when jobs were in abundance.

Then why is the problem so much worse now? Evidently there are a lot more people like this now, and it's happened since the economic crisis and increased in unemployment began - that's not just a co-incidence.

Arrow.

bumper234 wrote: »

But what happens when an innocent person DOES get killed? You haven't answered whether you would commit these killings yourself or expect others to do the dirty work.

If I had to, if I felt it was the right thing and there was no other way. I would do it. That I'm certain.

An innocent person? I'm speaking hypothetically - wiping out those who aren't innocent.

People know who's who in those circles.

KyussBishop

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

I dont think sensible social policies and zero tolerance need to be mutually exclusive

They aren't, but if you have sensible social policies, and a will funded AGS, you don't need or want any vigilantism.

bumper234

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

I could re-write your message and simply swap the protagonists around. I would estimate it is more likely a scumbag will do harm than a neighbourhood group protecting their area.

Do you think the statusw quo is working at the moment? Ever walked down Talbot Street? Or do you prefer innocent members of the public be menaced? I say lets start knocking some heads. Any trouble i have ever had with scumbags usually dissipates when they realise i am ready to take them on. Bunch of weak pansies

But innocent people DO get killed.

Vigilante jailed for killing man he mistakenly thought was paedophile

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/28/vigilante-lee-james-life-murdering-bijan-ebrahimi

Newcastle man jailed for vigilante murder of Dennis Griffin

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/20193511/newcastle-man-jailed-for-vigilante-murder-of-dennis-griffin/

So again i ask you what happens WHEN an innocent person gets killed?

Dravokivich

Splat Strawberry Jam wrote: »

If you're going to make an omlette you have to break some eggs.

What in the fúck does that mean in relation to the topic at hand? You are saying we have to kill someone to save them and others like them? fúcking nuts.

You don't fix a problem moving them around and hiding it, or taking your frustration out and beating up others you perceive to be the problem.

"Violence is all they understand," is a bit of a shít catch phrase to go by if you're thinking about pushing it too. They won't understand any different, if you provide it to'em, from mobs no less as well.

bumper234

MonstaMash wrote: »

Collateral damage...if it's OK for governments to abuse the term, why not vigilantes?

Which governments because i have never heard any Irish minister use that term for murder.

bumper234

bit monkey wrote: »

If I had to, if I felt it was the right thing and there was no other way. I would do it. That I'm certain.

An innocent person? I'm speaking hypothetically - wiping out those who aren't innocent.

People know who's who in those circles.

LOL at internet warriors, have you ever killed anyone? Do you think it's like in the movies where you just pull the trigger and live happily ever after? Who decides who dies? Do you hold a special little kangaroo court? Will you model yourself on the Nazi ideals or the KKK?

suicide_circus

I predict that heavy sack beatings will increase a shocking 900%