networking society

ShayK1 · 08-04-2003 09:56AM

oh yeah i remember now thanks Tom that was wrecking my head!

leeroybrown · 08-04-2003 10:29AM

To start, I think the idea of having a Compsoc and a Netsoc in the same college doesn't sound good. Ideally one Soc should be able to provide all the facilities and organisation without a split.

Firstly as Mord mentioned a Server (Linux or Free BSD) with SSH (Forget about Telnet), HTTP, HTTPS, FTP (out only), Mail, NNTP, CVS and IRC if you're lucky in and out would be a great start. Throwing together a box to begin with would be pretty trivial once you can get your Computer Services to concent to a network connection (doing this as work experience with departmental concent will help). Also, bear in mind the difficulties associated with finding a safe spot to store your server.

It's essential to have a well mantained server as a 'hub' for society activities as it will get members interested.

Further to getting the server online you can plan to arrange to train administrators (yes that's lots of reading) so you'll have minimum downtime and maximum service.

Also, if possible it would be nice to build up some level of trust (or tolerance) with Comp Services in order to smooth the ride. I'd really plan on being strict on publicly available warez etc to start with.

Aim to 'organise' a society that will be ready to take a new membership on board in september. When I say organise, I mean that you should have a concise constitution and shadow comittee in place by Spetember to run the society. Mordeth can confirm that I'm actively involved in running a Compsoc (a proper one not just gaming), and I can confirm that while it may seem simple it's a lot of work and advanced planning is essential.

Further to the Constitution and Committee, I presume theyll be a requirement for starting a Soc if thats what you do. I'm sure your College have a set of Soc rules and a Societies committee there to oversee Soc's and funding. You'll probably have to prove your self as a Soc come Sept to get made official but It will be very important to go to them for advice and notice now.

A simple but well designed website (plan to establish a webteam in the future) with webmail (Horde(Imp) or Squirrrel Mail) to get new members interested and promote your Soc.

Next, you can plan on doing up some swanky looking headed paper and writing letters to people and companies looking for sponsorship and speakers.

After that it's a question of providing tutorials/workshops, talks, etc for the members.

And just to reiterate ... having a Compsoc and Netsoc in the same college isn't as such good and it could cause bad things down the line

Snowball · 08-04-2003 10:40AM

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Firstly as Mord mentioned a Server (Linux or Free BSD) with SSH (Forget about Telnet), HTTP, HTTPS, FTP (out only), Mail and IRC if you're lucky in and out would be a great start. Throwing together a box to begin with would be pretty trivial once you can get your Computer Services to concent to a network connection (doing this as work experience with departmental concent will help). Also, bear in mind the difficulties associated with finding a safe spot to store your server.

Thats actual a huge problem. I was talking before with the Computer services ppl about a server for Compsoc and the problem with getting a box onto the network is not being allowed but it is the hardwear. With all teh **** they want on the box so it runs the way they want it we need a min of 750meg of ram and more specs like that (can only remember the ram spec but the jist is that it will be expensive). It kinda sux but its true.

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Next, you can plan on doing up some swanky looking headed paper and writing letters to people and companies looking for sponsorship and speakers.

If i can help there Ivor just ask. PM me or email or whatever. I would be interested in helping. prob wont have that much time free next year but as most ppl here (I asume) I am willing to help with an extreemly sound Idea

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-04-2003 10:42AM

what kind of **** did they want to put on it?

and if it's going to be a server, it's going to need a load of ram anyway, you're hardly going to be able to have 10+ users running whatever on a box with only 128....

leeroybrown · 08-04-2003 10:43AM

With all teh **** they want on the box so it runs the way they want it we need a min of 750meg of ram and more specs like that (can only remember the ram spec but the jist is that it will be expensive). It kinda sux but its true.

You'll have to clarify that a bit for me but you can put together a single processor Linux box with 512Mb or RAM and a decent size HDD for minimal money. And so long as theres no-one abusing the CPU resources and it's properly installed and configured it'll run all the netwok daemons, intrusion detection systems and apps you could ever need.

In fact you could probably scrape by on 256 Mb for a while at a detriment to performance if you wanted.

Could you clarify exactly what they want? (or exactly what the problem is ... I can't quite put my finger exactly on it based on your post)

Based on what I'm seeing it's sounds as if there is a spec being imposed on you?

Snowball · 08-04-2003 11:10AM

cant remember the specs, will check again but they were high. they basicaly saying that they would not put a machine with anything under the min specs onto the network because they did not want it afecting the network. The problem is that it is their perogative.

leeroybrown · 08-04-2003 11:12AM

Originally posted by Snowball
If i can help there Ivor just ask. PM me or email or whatever. I would be interested in helping. prob wont have that much time free next year but as most ppl here (I asume) I am willing to help with an extreemly sound Idea

The time to start approaching companies for sponsorship is now ... coming up towards the Summer (just after the exams for example). From experience I can say that the earlier you get onto companies about sponsorship the better chance you have. When a company turns you down, quite often they also tell you when is the best time to contact them ... that will give more of a definite timeline.

Also, think further than just money (equipment can be invaluable) and definitely target companies that put a lot of money into PR, companies that take a lot of graduates from Carlow and local companies that will see you as being near to them.

Snowball · 08-04-2003 11:17AM

just talking to colm there (he is acting manager of computer services since Fergal is gone on hollys) he says (specs wise) that as long as there is 256 ram with a p2 500+ it should be ok but the permision of Fergal would be needed.
About the external access, i get the impression is a big **** off

leeroybrown · 08-04-2003 11:26AM

Typical, by the time I've replied my post is obsolete.

A P500 with 256 Mb (You could probably stretch to 512 Mb for performance) could be built from second hand parts pretty easily.

Unfortunately, if your Computer Services don't want to give you external access then theres a problem. That said having a node on the network is a big start. Talk nicely and I doubt they'll object to mail access in and out.

In time you'll be able to open up bits and pieces. (HTTP/HTTPS and SSH being the main priorities)

I'm not sure of the incoming bandwidth in Carlow IT but I'm sure 1) it's not huge and 2) that Computer Services are very protective of it. They could quite easily percieve a Server as a "leeching box" as could a lot of the possible members. (The voice of experience)

At least on the good side of things www.itcarlow.ie is serverd off Apache on RedHat linux.

Snowball · 08-04-2003 11:39AM

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Typical, by the time I've replied my post is obsolete.

lol

Originally posted by leeroybrown
A P500 with 256 Mb (You could probably stretch to 512 Mb for performance) could be built from second hand parts pretty easily.

Unfortunately, if your Computer Services don't want to give you external access then theres a problem. That said having a node on the network is a big start. Talk nicely and I doubt they'll object to mail access in and out.

In time you'll be able to open up bits and pieces.

I'm not sure of the incoming bandwidth in Carlow IT but I'm sure 1) it's not huge and 2) that Computer Services are very protective of it. They could quite easily percieve a Server as a "leeching box" as could a lot of the possible members. (The voice of experience)

At least on the good side of things www.itcarlow.ie is serverd off Apache on RedHat linux.

1) not its huge. its a 1/10gig share of a 100 gig ATM line.
2)yes, thay are very protective but there is near 4000 ppl here to share it so I'm not suprised.
about redhat not sure, they only have linux in the networking labs and they are outside the FW so they will prob not let a box there but they said 2K (mmmm, 2k) or XP (noooooooooooooooooo).
Yeah the specs that I got no should be pretty easy to scramble together. The only problem is that the guy incharge is on hollidays and wont be back untill after easter.

leeroybrown · 08-04-2003 11:53AM

http://mrtg.hea.net/mrtg/atm/atm.pvc.itnet-bip.html

Share of a 95 MB CBR ATM Line. Unfortunatley info abou the ITNet users bandwidth isn't as readily available as that of the Universities.

The server hosting www.itcarlow.ie is definitely RedHat running Apache 2.0.40 (soon to be upgraded to .45 if they have sense).

If you're running a Netsoc/Compsoc server it really does have to be some Linux/Unix variant with command line access only (no GUI).

You seem more sceptical about 'Fergal' than his current holiday cover. I'm sure he's got reservations about letting a Soc have a server on the network too considering the lack of any previous precedent for it. Things such as having an organised (but very flexible) proposal on paper, having a well defined set of rules to be imposed on the server's users, etc would help. Also if there is a formal societies committee or management structure talking to them first then being able to say that they're in favour of your idea of having a server would help.

Basically, the more organised you appear to be the less space there will be for reservations about your idea.

Unfortunately when it comes to inter Society - Comp Services relationships from time to time things can go wrong. Many of the Compsoc's will testify to this and some have been firewalled off or kicked off the network for extensive periods. Having a good working relationship with them really helps and if they think you're running the soc/server well it really helps.

Snowball · 08-04-2003 02:35PM

ur making lots of sense today........ hmmmmm

Headcase · 08-04-2003 11:07PM

ok people, the story is i probably won't get the job, cause if u fail more than 3 subjects ur not allowed to do work-experience.
either way, there will be a netsoc next year.
its college funded, the politics will be taken care of by 1 of my lectures.
still not entirely sure what the set-up will be

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-04-2003 11:10PM

****, sorry to hear that dude

Snowball · 09-04-2003 12:17PM

Originally posted by Headcase
ok people, the story is i probably won't get the job, cause if u fail more than 3 subjects ur not allowed to do work-experience.
either way, there will be a netsoc next year.
its college funded, the politics will be taken care of by 1 of my lectures.
still not entirely sure what the set-up will be

ns1 man, lots of peeps looking forward to this soc, incuding me

Gerry · 10-04-2003 01:52PM

Tis good to see a netsoc being setup in carlow. I'm not sure about having a compsoc and netsoc though, are you sure they can't be combined under the one banner? Separating them leads to people being split between the two socs. As far as I can see all compsoc do is play games ( could be wrong ).

The idea of a netsoc is to enable people to learn more about computing. I agree with everything leeroybrown has said. You do need a unix machine, either freebsd or linux. Windows makes no sense for a netsoc, apart from its massive general flaws, it is closed source, meaning you can't learn much about whats going on internally, or fix anything. Its completely unsuitable for multiuser logins.

Anyway, as leeroybrown said, a medium spec machine will do fine. In fact one of our machines is a p2 300 with 320mb ram running freebsd. ( http://minds.cs.may.ie ). We are lucky enough to have another machine as well, a sun e450 which is a beast of a machine ( 4 cpus, 2 gigs ram, 180gb ). It is preferable to get a dual cpu machine if you can, as it will make it more responsive in a multiuser setup. You should be looking at offering at least the following services:

ssh logins
web serving, with mysql and php, cgi
chat ( irc is good )
bulletin boards ( nntp and/or web )

You should offer nntp access to intersocs also, these are usenet groups that are exclusive to irish networking societies, currently people are posting from DCU,UCD,TCD,UL and ourselves, NUIM.
Getting the college to agree to give you network access is crucial. You have to look professional, your admins have to know what they are talking about, and you have to show the college what you are offering them.
You are offering to improve the skillset of their future graduates, perhaps get them more interested in their courses, and offer well maintained services. You can also suggest that it will be open to staff as well, to increase co-operation between students and staff. We have had a long hard battle in maynooth to get more network access, currently we offer external ssh and web, outgoing web access, and almost full net access from one of our machines.

Heres some links to irish netsocs:

http://minds.may.ie
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie
http://www.skynet.ie
http://netsoc.ucd.ie
http://netsoc.tcd.ie

If you have any more questions, send me a pm or email, as I'll probably forget to check this board very often.

Snowball · 10-04-2003 02:42PM

Originally posted by Gerry
Tis good to see a netsoc being setup in carlow. I'm not sure about having a compsoc and netsoc though, are you sure they can't be combined under the one banner? Separating them leads to people being split between the two socs. As far as I can see all compsoc do is play games ( could be wrong ).

Thats the problem Gerry, all compsoc do is play games. I means dont get me wrong guys its a **** load of fun and I love it to bits but a NetSoc should be seperate I think. I think one of the fears of computer services ppl would be that if CompSoc had full access to a lab for networking they wouldf just play games (and they would prob be right) also arguments would prob arise between the game ppl and the net ppl.

I also think you r right in saying that it needs to be profesional and it needs to improve the skillset of the future graduates. Colleges pump lots of funding into Soc's that do that and it would be good.

loismustdie · 10-04-2003 05:56PM

snowball, if you want to do something other than games why don't you set up your own society and stop criticising the one that ciaran set up and that you've been a part of all year

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 10-04-2003 05:58PM

/me whispers to loismustdie

*we are setting up a new society*

/me pats loismustdie on the head

women eh? they're always a little bit behind

loismustdie · 10-04-2003 06:00PM

sorry for having a life outside computers cillian, and thanks for that apology - you actually put it in the wrong place though - men huh, they're always a bit (or a lot) behind!!!

except dogboy(dogboy) - who'se always on top (of his biatches)

leeroybrown · 10-04-2003 06:08PM

Well, I suppose if the people in Carlow feel that the best way to get a proper NetSoc is to set up a seperate Society then that's probably the way to go.

I get this impression that some people think that a NetSoc should have full acces to a lab. Really, to begin with all you need is some interested people to get it rolling and a well looked after server.

The other reason for having a seperate Netsoc that I can see would be the possibility of getting reasonably strong departmental support for a Netsoc.

Ivan · 10-04-2003 06:17PM

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Well, I suppose if the people in Carlow feel that the best way to get a proper NetSoc is to set up a seperate Society then that's probably the way to go.

I get this impression that some people think that a NetSoc should have full acces to a lab. Really, to begin with all you need is some interested people to get it rolling and a well looked after server.

The other reason for having a seperate Netsoc that I can see would be the possibility of getting reasonably strong departmental support for a Netsoc.

If all thats needed is a few interested people then your probably better off trying to set it up with compsoc. You have interested people to get it rolling and we're due some more funding next year with which we were supposed to get a game or memory card for the PS2 but if there is the demand then we'll try get a box set up at some location.

Snowball · 11-04-2003 09:58AM

Originally posted by loismustdie
snowball, if you want to do something other than games why don't you set up your own society and stop criticising the one that ciaran set up and that you've been a part of all year

I'm not criticising just stating the reality of it. its not criticising. Also as much as Ciaran has done for CompSoc he did not set it up. its been around for years.

Gerry · 12-04-2003 12:40PM

Reading the other thread about "the future of compsoc", it seems another main use for compsoc is warez. Well, its completely idiotic to expect computer services to help you out, if you intend on using their resources for warezing, as part of a college society. If you are setting up this netsoc, you need to make it clear that the server will not be used for storing warez on, that you will not allow people to put it on their webpage, etc.

I think you should setup a netsoc as a separate society, and break completely with the warez, and almost completely with the games. For games, you could organise byopc lans, or lans in netcafes or something. It is very important to keep games to a small part of your society though. You need to think about a reasonably broad membership, not of all of whom are into games.

While our society in maynooth was off the network ( for about a year and a half ), one of the only things we did was organise lans. Now while some of these were good fun, there were **** all people there normally, and it was always the same old people. I made the point several times that there was no point in having the lans under the banner of the networking society, since it was doing the society no good whatsoever, ordinary members weren't interested in going, and if they did go, they were pretty much ignored.

You need to start looking now for people who are interested in computers, in learning more about operating systems, programming, and helping other people. Your society needs to be a helpful environment, where people can login, learn and get help if they need it. You need to organise interesting tutorials and talks, and promote the hell out of the whole enterprise. Get some non-nerds on boards, sell it to the non-nerds also.

Snowball · 12-04-2003 08:23PM

Originally posted by Gerry
Reading the other thread about "the future of compsoc", it seems another main use for compsoc is warez. Well, its completely idiotic to expect computer services to help you out

I think ur right but also the fact that CompSoc is all about games at the mo. thats also a big problem probably

Originally posted by Gerry
I think you should setup a netsoc as a separate society, and break completely with the warez, and almost completely with the games.

I think completly from games. I recon (personaly) no games in the society room at all.

Originally posted by Gerry
You need to start looking now for people who are interested in computers, in learning more about operating systems, programming, and helping other people. Your society needs to be a helpful environment, where people can login, learn and get help if they need it. You need to organise interesting tutorials and talks, and promote the hell out of the whole enterprise. Get some non-nerds on boards, sell it to the non-nerds also.

Off the top of my head I can think of 10 ppl that would be faithfull members and there is 2 networking courses so... there would be a nice membership. Also other computer courses would probably have a mild interest. The computer app course might be interested.
Lulu?? Gogo?? what do u 2 think? would ur course be interested??

Rew · 24-04-2003 12:30AM

Originally posted by Gerry
Heres some links to irish netsocs:

http://minds.may.ie
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie
http://www.skynet.ie
http://netsoc.ucd.ie
http://netsoc.tcd.ie

Eh dont forget us in WIT...

http://snet.wit.ie

We have run off a very low spec machine for a while now with no problems (bit slow at times) so i wouldn't get too hung up on hardware you can work on that once you have a base.

We run OpenBSD. Theses daya we have several machines (including an E450) membership was slow for a while but recently we have been in demand (esp for 4th year projects)

ratman · 24-04-2003 01:32PM

Originally posted by loismustdie
snowball, if you want to do something other than games why don't you set up your own society and stop criticising the one that ciaran set up and that you've been a part of all year

don't know how i never copped this until now hahahaha you ****ing dumbass

loismustdie · 30-04-2003 03:53PM

as you know i never listen to anything that comes out of his mouth because whether or not it's over boards it's spam spam spam spam spam so i just posted back for the sake of it ratman

ratman · 30-04-2003 04:16PM

you'd hear me if i was saying " i found 4 bars"

loismustdie · 30-04-2003 06:01PM

did you read my post?
did you think about your answer?
do you know what you're talking about?
did you look up whether or not i'd hear you or not?

some people are just unbearable to listen to, others aren't

networking society

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