Celtic FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014/15 Mod Warning post #6011

Pompey Magnus · 11-12-2013 09:10PM

bobmalooka wrote: »

Another gutless display, is playing in the nou camp not worth caring about these days

We have played about 45 minutes of decent football in Europe this season, including the qualification rounds. The performance tonight is just slightly below average for the team this year.

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 09:13PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

What an embarrassment

All this nonsense about the Green Brigade and broken seats is a complete distraction. A dead rubber game in the Nou Camp is asking for trouble. The disgrace for Celtic this season was the board sending the team into a CL campaign without a striker. The board better get the finger out and make the most of the resources at our disposal, harsh lessons learned in this campaign.

ColeTrain · 11-12-2013 09:16PM

Barcelona - even without the likes of Messi and Iniesta, are capable of doing this to a team with our resources. There's just a huge gulf in class.
With that being said, it doesn't make it any easier to watch.

RoryMac · 11-12-2013 09:18PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

We have played about 45 minutes of decent football in Europe this season, including the qualification rounds. The performance tonight is just slightly below average for the team this year.

I agree that our performances in Europe this season have been poor and we are probably lucky to have any points at all but this performance for me is on a whole new level of awful. Some players are understandably out of their depth but other just haven't tried(Samaras I'm looking at you)

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 09:31PM

RoryMac wrote: »

I agree that our performances in Europe this season have been poor and we are probably lucky to have any points at all but this performance for me is on a whole new level of awful. Some players are understandably out of their depth but other just haven't tried(Samaras I'm looking at you)

Time for some changes. We've got the best out of Samaras last season I think, let him go. Ledley will probably go as well.

Get some new players in, build a new team and buy a striker ffs. A solid base is there with players like Brown, Mulgrew, Lustig and one or two others, providing the experience gained over these last two CL campaigns to bring in new players around them.

A Dub in Glasgo · 11-12-2013 09:38PM

Lennonist wrote: »

Time for some changes. We've got the best out of Samaras last season I think, let him go.

He heard that

RoryMac · 11-12-2013 09:41PM

Lennonist wrote: »

Time for some changes. We've got the best out of Samaras last season I think, let him go. Ledley will probably go as well.

Get some new players in, build a new team and buy a striker ffs. A solid base is there with players like Brown, Mulgrew, Lustig and one or two others, providing the experience gained over these last two CL campaigns to bring in new players around them.

I agree, Samaras has gone back to the player he was 2 years ago where you got 4 bad games and 1 good and I wouldn't be too bothered to see him go. I'd like to see Ledley stay but I can't see it happen.

The problem with having a big overhaul is that we are going to struggle to attract any decent players in our current position, we play in a poor league with no challengers, we have a very difficult route to Champions League qualification, we don't have huge money to spend, we won't offer great wages and we also don't have a reputation for selling players on to big clubs.

I don't think people realise how difficult it is for us to attract players capable of improving the team. But if we have an overhaul of the team we need to find 3 - 4 of these players which is a massive task no matter what backing the board give to Lennon.

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 10:09PM

RoryMac wrote: »

I agree, Samaras has gone back to the player he was 2 years ago where you got 4 bad games and 1 good and I wouldn't be too bothered to see him go. I'd like to see Ledley stay but I can't see it happen.

The problem with having a big overhaul is that we are going to struggle to attract any decent players in our current position, we play in a poor league with no challengers, we have a very difficult route to Champions League qualification, we don't have huge money to spend, we won't offer great wages and we also don't have a reputation for selling players on to big clubs.

I don't think people realise how difficult it is for us to attract players capable of improving the team. But if we have an overhaul of the team we need to find 3 - 4 of these players which is a massive task no matter what backing the board give to Lennon.

I agree with some of your points, but have to disagree on the highlighted one. We don't have a very difficult route to CL qualification.

We will be in the champions route, we have to play 3 qualifying rounds, but the 1st of those is a handy game v a part time league outfit.

It's not easy and is an achievement in itself to qualify for the Group Stages, but we tend to make it more difficult for ourselves by selling our best players and not replacing them adequately.

We had money left in the bank last season after the official financial returns were published recently, that money should have been spent on bolstering the team for the CL or Europa League Campaigns this season. There is no argument about that.

This January and summer, money that we have should be spent on the team. The board have let the club down in this regard going into the CL this season, they have not done their job properly.

jonnny68 · 11-12-2013 10:20PM

Celtics defence are an absolute shambles, and ultimately this is why they made little or no impact in this season's CL, you might get away with that in the SPL but not the Champions League.

Unfortunately Celtic are more of a selling club and don't really replace the few quality players they sell, and the lure of the SPL isn't really that big for top class players anyway so unfortunately they'll most likely struggle in the CL for years to come.

RoryMac · 11-12-2013 10:22PM

Lennonist wrote: »

I agree with some of your points, but have to disagree on the highlighted one. We don't have a very difficult route to CL qualification.

We will be in the champions route, we have to play 3 qualifying rounds, but the 1st of those is a handy game v a part time league outfit.

It's not easy and is an achievement in itself to qualify for the Group Stages, but we tend to make it more difficult for ourselves by selling our best players and not replacing them adequately.

We had money left in the bank last season after the official financial returns were published recently, that money should have been spent on bolstering the team for the CL or Europa League Campaigns this season. There is no argument about that.

This January and summer, money that we have should be spent on the team. The board have let the club down in this regard going into the CL this season, they have not done their job properly.

Spent on who is the problem, I don't think the reason we pay 1- 2 million on unproven players is all the fault of the board. I think it's as much about the quality of players willing to come to us. We're not going to spend 5 or 6 million on a player because we can't afford those players wages and few players of quality would be attracted by a move to a backwater league.

For example what could we offer a player that say Ajax, Porto or Benfica couldn't? Or how would a player with ambition to play for a top club pick us over almost all of the EPL teams, there they are in the shop window every game and paid better for that while we can offer the possibility of Champions Lge depending on the draw for the qualifying rounds.

Dempsey · 11-12-2013 10:36PM

RoryMac wrote: »

Spent on who is the problem, I don't think the reason we pay 1- 2 million on unproven players is all the fault of the board. I think it's as much about the quality of players willing to come to us. We're not going to spend 5 or 6 million on a player because we can't afford those players wages and few players of quality would be attracted by a move to a backwater league.

For example what could we offer a player that say Ajax, Porto or Benfica couldn't? Or how would a player with ambition to play for a top club pick us over almost all of the EPL teams, there they are in the shop window every game and paid better for that while we can offer the possibility of Champions Lge depending on the draw for the qualifying rounds.

Quite simply, Celtic needs to improve how youth players get to the first team. We need to find how to bridge the gap from youth to first team. What we spend on transfer fees is no guarantee whatsoever of a player becoming a success. If we are going to throw money at anything, it needs to be the structure of the club, coaching staff, medical staff & facilities. Long term strategies need to be invested in and persevered with.

rosskind · 11-12-2013 10:44PM

Samaras didn't care and Matthews was not right, so it's no real surprise the three first half goals came down that side. Lennon has to take the blame on Matthews but he can't really legislate for Sammy or Efe tonight. The heads went at that stage and it wasn't ever going to be a contest. A bit more bravery would have been nice, but the confidence was gone and what was a meaningless game beforehand, became a write-off after the first few goals.

Ledley will go if Cardiff stay up and Samaras I feel too. There's a decent core there though. No one will pay what VvD's worth to us just yet, so we'll have him for next year. Lustig, Brown, Forster (probably), Commons, Izzy, Mulgrew, Ambrose etc are all capable of last 16 standard, we know that from last year. I'm sure others will prove themselves in time. This year has been poor when it matters, although I think the reaction is being a bit overboard. In theory it shouldn't matter but you just can't turn it on like a tap, Rangers can't get back to strength soon enough for me.

I don't think you can blame the board. We don't really know what's going on; we could have been willing to pay big money but there are so many better opportunites for players. We just have to trust the scouting; VvD, Wanyama, Hooper, Lustig, Izzy show it's working, it's just not sustainable when you're losing players like that.

RoryMac · 11-12-2013 10:46PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Quite simply, Celtic needs to improve how youth players get to the first team. We need to find how to bridge the gap from youth to first team. What we spend on transfer fees is no guarantee whatsoever of a player becoming a success. If we are going to throw money at anything, it needs to be the structure of the club, coaching staff, medical staff & facilities. Long term strategies need to be invested in and persevered with.

Agree 100% and we have a great opportunity with the current state of the SPL to blood young players. I think decisions need to be made in the next few weeks about the future of Samaras & Ledley, if they don't sign get rid or drop them and use the squad players to fill the gaps

TheBuilder · 11-12-2013 10:47PM

bobmalooka wrote: »

Another gutless display, is playing in the nou camp not worth caring about these days

Nevermind it being at the Nou Camp, is playing for Celtic not worth caring about anymore? That was a shambolic effort, players never even bother trying to win the ball back when giving it away, balls breaking in midfield and Ledley etc just stood watching. Shouldn't matter who its against and where it's played, they're playing for a club like Celtic and they can't even be bothered to make an effort, but happy to pick up the massive wages and appearance fees.

Thats coming from me, a Rangers fan as well, my Celtic supporting mates are all raging about how bad you were tonight.

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 10:52PM

RoryMac wrote: »

Spent on who is the problem, I don't think the reason we pay 1- 2 million on unproven players is all the fault of the board. I think it's as much about the quality of players willing to come to us. We're not going to spend 5 or 6 million on a player because we can't afford those players wages and few players of quality would be attracted by a move to a backwater league.

For example what could we offer a player that say Ajax, Porto or Benfica couldn't? Or how would a player with ambition to play for a top club pick us over almost all of the EPL teams, there they are in the shop window every game and paid better for that while we can offer the possibility of Champions Lge depending on the draw for the qualifying rounds.

We had more money to spend last summer and the money we did spend was not wisely spent. We should be able to attract a couple of quality players with the offer of decent wages and the strong possibility of CL action, which gives ambitious players the chance of moving on to bigger leagues if they want to.

Wanyama has done well in the EPL this season. Hooper after being injured at the start of this season for Norwich is doing well now also. Forster will get a move to an EPL club this season and Celtic should get a sizeable fee for him.

No more excuses. Celtic need to do better in the transfer market over the next two windows and give the manager a chance to put a team on the field that can qualify and perform better in next years CL.

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 11:01PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Quite simply, Celtic needs to improve how youth players get to the first team. We need to find how to bridge the gap from youth to first team. What we spend on transfer fees is no guarantee whatsoever of a player becoming a success. If we are going to throw money at anything, it needs to be the structure of the club, coaching staff, medical staff & facilities. Long term strategies need to be invested in and persevered with.

That can be done in tandem with spending a bit more on prime target players to replace players that are being sold. Celtic have done well financially with the CL campaigns and sales of players over the last two seasons, but the money that has been spent doesn't seem to have been well spent by enlarge. Improvement is needed on that side of things if the club is going to continue to be a CL outfit and is going to perform better than they did this season in the Group Stages if they qualify.

rosskind · 11-12-2013 11:02PM

The world scouting network is so strong now though. It's unlikely we will find this hidden gem that no one else has heard of. It's happened a few times and can work no doubt but in most cases the quality of player we're looking at will have a few options and I'd imagine most would be a step up from us whether in wages, competition and/or lifestyle.

The best thing would be the investing in youth set up as Demspey says. It starts from the bottom and will take a while to bare fruit but it's the only/most sustainable system. It's probably underway already infact, but I'm sure it can always be improved.

Dempsey · 11-12-2013 11:05PM

Lennonist wrote: »

That can be done in tandem with spending a bit more on prime target players to replace players that are being sold. Celtic have done well financially with the CL campaigns and sales of players over the last two seasons, but the money that has been spent doesn't seem to have been well spent by enlarge. Improvement is needed on that side of things if the club is going to continue to be a CL outfit and is going to perform better than they did this season in the Group Stages if they qualify.

It can of course, but developing youth players needs to be the foundation to building the squad.

RoryMac · 11-12-2013 11:31PM

Lennonist wrote: »

That can be done in tandem with spending a bit more on prime target players to replace players that are being sold. Celtic have done well financially with the CL campaigns and sales of players over the last two seasons, but the money that has been spent doesn't seem to have been well spent by enlarge. Improvement is needed on that side of things if the club is going to continue to be a CL outfit and is going to perform better than they did this season in the Group Stages if they qualify.

The money spent in the summer may not have been well spent but that will happen when you are in our position of taking a punt on players either surplus to requirements at decent sides(Pukki & Boerigter) or young unproven players like Balde. Spending £5 - £6m on a player isn't going to guarantee success in the CL, the fact is that the strong CL teams can spend multiples of this and still not get a player that can compete at that level.

Like it or not we are not going to start spending big money or break our 20 - 25k a week limit any time soon. There really aren't many players out there that would be a big improvement on our squad that we can afford & would be tempted by the package we can offer.

Lennonist · 11-12-2013 11:53PM

RoryMac wrote: »

The money spent in the summer may not have been well spent but that will happen when you are in our position of taking a punt on players either surplus to requirements at decent sides(Pukki & Boerigter) or young unproven players like Balde. Spending £5 - £6m on a player isn't going to guarantee success in the CL, the fact is that the strong CL teams can spend multiples of this and still not get a player that can compete at that level.

Like it or not we are not going to start spending big money or break our 20 - 25k a week limit any time soon. There really aren't many players out there that would be a big improvement on our squad that we can afford & would be tempted by the package we can offer.

Whats the point of all the hard work done over the last two seasons gaining experience at CL level if there isnt a strategy put in place to progress and maintain the clubs status as a CL club?

The club are in a different place financially than they were a few seasons ago. The financial strategy must change accordingly. Time and opportunity to make changes now for next season.

RoryMac · 12-12-2013 12:13AM

Lennonist wrote: »

Whats the point of all the hard work done over the last two seasons gaining experience at CL level if there isnt a strategy put in place to progress and maintain the clubs status as a CL club?

The club are in a different place financially than they were a few seasons ago. The financial strategy must change accordingly. Time and opportunity to make changes now for next season.

The point is we are still early into the process of becoming a CL club, we achieved our main aim of getting to the group stages to continue the progress made over the last few years but until the coefficient improves I don't think we'll see a big change in our transfer dealings.

Any major change in our budget could backfire badly if we were to miss out on CL qualification as we are walking a tight line at present in relation to the contracts players are currently on. A player coming in on 30k + would leave us with several current players looking for similar and our current model being abandoned.

I'd love to see us signing more quality players too but not if it means risking the clubs longterm stability. Like Dempsey I think our focus should be on finding ways to get our youth players up to the required standard.

I think as part of that we should be pushing to get a B team into the league structure to help their development.

Lennonist · 12-12-2013 12:36AM

RoryMac wrote: »

The point is we are still early into the process of becoming a CL club, we achieved our main aim of getting to the group stages to continue the progress made over the last few years but until the coefficient improves I don't think we'll see a big change in our transfer dealings.

Any major change in our budget could backfire badly if we were to miss out on CL qualification as we are walking a tight line at present in relation to the contracts players are currently on. A player coming in on 30k + would leave us with several current players looking for similar and our current model being abandoned.

I'd love to see us signing more quality players too but not if it means risking the clubs longterm stability. Like Dempsey I think our focus should be on finding ways to get our youth players up to the required standard.

I think as part of that we should be pushing to get a B team into the league structure to help their development.

They dont have to make radical changes, but they do need to make significant changes in financial strategy. They have to kick on. Spend a bit more of whats available to them and spend it better.

rosskind · 12-12-2013 12:59AM

How do you know they aren't trying to? Maybe it's the players turning down the moves rather than the club not looking. If our top targets are turning us down, would you rather throw it at lesser, riskier players just for the sake of it. That would be crazy and reckless, although I'm not saying you're suggesting that.

It's all well and good in hindsight saying that we should have, for example, given Heerenveen the extra couple of million they wanted for Finnbogason, but what if he turned out to be another flop? What if AIK had asked for more for Bangura? It'd be another stick to beat them with. They obviously didn't think he (or anyone else they didn't bid for) was worth the money he'd have cost. He also brings me back to the first point; would he have come if a bid was accepted? By the end of next summer he'll certainly be on more money than we could (and at the minute, should) dream of paying a player.

Antifa161 · 12-12-2013 09:24AM

Oh well lads at least we still have our world class fans gloating about each other getting bans eh

PauloMN · 12-12-2013 09:51AM

Was out, glad I missed it, but did nearly choke on my dinner when I saw the score updates on my phone.

There was always the danger of this happening with this game and nothing to play for, I didn't think it would be that bad though, especially after a couple of confidence building wins in the league and cup. Was fully expecting a 3-0, but to let 6 in is inexcusable.

Time for a rebuild, unfortunately I don't think the January windows will be the solution to our problems unless we get lucky. Normally just squad fillers moving around in January - we'll need more than that with at least 2 or 3 decent quality signings required.

Sorry to say it but I've lost any slim confidence I had in Ambrose. I know it's harsh to judge him against Barca at home, but I'm not, I don't even fancy him that much in the SPL. Far too error prone to be an asset in Europe - what he gets away with in Scotland, he doesn't in Europe.

Sammy - I like the guy, he's been poor in Europe this season though. Would like to get another season out of him, but not at the expense of getting someone better in.

Playing Matthews was nuts imo.

Dempsey · 12-12-2013 09:54AM

Antifa161 wrote: »

Oh well lads at least we still have our world class fans gloating about each other getting bans eh

World Class fans? Are you still dining out on that fifa fair play award? Seems the issue with the GB and the neds in our support is more important to you than the actual football. Im sure youll continue to bleat about the injustice of it all when uefa & spfl hands out their punishments and the police arrest neds

Lennonist · 12-12-2013 11:53AM

rosskind wrote: »

How do you know they aren't trying to? Maybe it's the players turning down the moves rather than the club not looking. If our top targets are turning us down, would you rather throw it at lesser, riskier players just for the sake of it. That would be crazy and reckless, although I'm not saying you're suggesting that.

It's all well and good in hindsight saying that we should have, for example, given Heerenveen the extra couple of million they wanted for Finnbogason, but what if he turned out to be another flop? What if AIK had asked for more for Bangura? It'd be another stick to beat them with. They obviously didn't think he (or anyone else they didn't bid for) was worth the money he'd have cost. He also brings me back to the first point; would he have come if a bid was accepted? By the end of next summer he'll certainly be on more money than we could (and at the minute, should) dream of paying a player.

I've heard that before and there may have been some truth in it, but it's time to move on from that now. You see that narrative is beginning to wear a bit thin at this stage with the club having played at CL level for two seasons now and having sold a few players for good money. They had more money left to spend last summer and the money they are spending is on players around about the 1.5 million to 3 million mark. The money they are spending on these players is being wasted, 'cos they are consistently proving to be not good enough to perform adequately for the club at CL level.

Pukki, Boerrigter, Balde have not been good enough so far, Bangura is a complete write off. The money spent on those players added up is in the region of 8 to 9 million. If the club are serious about wanting to continue to play in the Champions League, they are going to have to equip themselves with better players. They'd be better off spending 5 or 6 million each on two players and give them 30k a week; than signing loads of players for 1.5 to 3 million who aren't quite good enough and fit for purpose at CL level, or are complete write offs.

I think the club can go to the next level with their financial strategy without taking undue risk, and continuing to be part of the CL set up and winning points and money at that level will pay for going to the next level in terms of financial strategy. The alternative is to stagnate, sell our best players, replace them with players who are not good enough and the club will go backways, end up failing to qualify for the CL and fail to access the funds that go with it. Also if we keep selling our best players for good money but replace them with ones that aren't as good - even after being developed - then we wont get good money for selling our players any more either.

Peter Lawwel is on a 1 million a year, he and the others responsible for the financial strategy that has worked in the past, but now needs changing need, to get the finger out.

rosskind · 12-12-2013 02:31PM

Lennonist wrote: »

They'd be better off spending 5 or 6 million each on two players and give them 30k a week; than signing loads of players for 1.5 to 3 million who aren't quite good enough and fit for purpose at CL level, or are complete write offs.

A lot of players worth 6m-ish might be out of our league in terms of wages. Looking at the EPL's summer transfer in that range; you have guys like Huddlestone, Kone, Stekelenburg, Downing, Shelvey. I'd safely say they're getting more than we could offer. Others like Fer and Chadli are big talents and have more ambitions than joining us.

The ones on wages in our budget (and it's debatable whether they are within our budget), likes of Cornelius, Okore, Gayle, Anichebe and Altidore, cost big money (for us) and haven't proved themselves (would any of them get in our team and help get last 16?), in the same way Pukki and Boerrigter haven't. I think the improvements in both Wanyama's and Wilson's second seasons (Lustig's first six months weren't great either) show it's dangerous to judge players too soon. Of course, some players like Bangura won't improve but it comes back to the point; we have to trust in the scouting and hope we pick more good ones than bad.

Lennonist wrote: »

I think the club can go to the next level with their financial strategy without taking undue risk, and continuing to be part of the CL set up and winning points and money at that level will pay for going to the next level in terms of financial strategy. The alternative is to stagnate, sell our best players, replace them with players who are not good enough and the club will go backways, end up failing to qualify for the CL and fail to access the funds that go with it. Also if we keep selling our best players for good money but replace them with ones that aren't as good - even after being developed - then we wont get good money for selling our players any more either.

That is the hope but while we are getting more money from the CL, so too are our rivals in the PL in terms of buying players, whether TV revenue or sponsorship. I think my main point is that the quality of players we need, to improve on our current team and get last 16 or further, don't want to join us. So the best option is to create our own.

Lennonist · 12-12-2013 03:39PM

rosskind wrote: »

A lot of players worth 6m-ish might be out of our league in terms of wages. Looking at the EPL's summer transfer in that range; you have guys like Huddlestone, Kone, Stekelenburg, Downing, Shelvey. I'd safely say they're getting more than we could offer. Others like Fer and Chadli are big talents and have more ambitions than joining us.

The ones on wages in our budget (and it's debatable whether they are within our budget), likes of Cornelius, Okore, Gayle, Anichebe and Altidore, cost big money (for us) and haven't proved themselves (would any of them get in our team and help get last 16?), in the same way Pukki and Boerrigter haven't. I think the improvements in both Wanyama's and Wilson's second seasons (Lustig's first six months weren't great either) show it's dangerous to judge players too soon. Of course, some players like Bangura won't improve but it comes back to the point; we have to trust in the scouting and hope we pick more good ones than bad.

That is the hope but while we are getting more money from the CL, so too are our rivals in the PL in terms of buying players, whether TV revenue or sponsorship. I think my main point is that the quality of players we need, to improve on our current team and get last 16 or further, don't want to join us. So the best option is to create our own.

The bolded bit I don't accept. I don't expect us to get to the last 16 every season, getting to the last 16 would be a bonus. I do think we have to adapt our financial model just to continue qualifying for the Group Stages and to do better in it than we did this season when we get there. We should have been able to finish 3rd in the group this season and if we had a better striker than the ones we have - which we could have afforded to get - we probably would have finished ahead of that young inexperienced Ajax side that beat us to 3rd place.

Forget about buying from the EPL for now, there is better value in Europe. Yes of course we should build up the youth set up but we need to adapt the financial model as well and be prepared to spend a little bit more on the right players that we need than we have been doing lately. The club has to be prepared to adapt in order to maintain progress. Sitting still and carrying on like before as if nothing has changed is not acceptable.

Beefy78 · 12-12-2013 03:56PM

As an outsider who watched most of Celtic's CL games this season, whilst the focus has been on who was up front it seemed that most of Celtic's major issues were at the other end of the pitch.

Three goals in six games won't ever get you through, obviously, but the defending was shambolic at times - and not just last night.

Celtic FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014/15 Mod Warning post #6011

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