Tradesmen : Do you trust them?

RoboRat · 10-12-2013 06:33PM

I have mixed feelings about this. I have dealt with some absolute ass monkeys who haven't a clue and there are some absolute gems too.

I have learned to go by referral and it has helped me a lot.

gramar · 10-12-2013 06:40PM

A friend of mine's mother has builders in changing the kitchen. 'a week' I was told and that was two weeks ago. They were supposed to be finished by last Tuesday. I had a bet with her saying they wouldn't be finished by this Tuesday and unfortunately for her
poor mother they are not and by all accounts they won't be done be next Tuesday either.

A big problem with builders at least is the time quoted for jobs and all of these little problems that present themselves adding to cost, time and the mental angiush of
the unsuspecting customer. They know no job is going to go to plan and they know how long things take so should factor this in but I suppose if they told the truth in the first place it would frighten anyone off getting them in to do anything.

mfceiling · 10-12-2013 07:33PM

davgtrek wrote: »

I have come across lots of tradesmen down the years in all aspects of construction and privately the usual suspects, mechanics etc.etc. To me its this simple. The vast majority of them never studied theory "a day in their lives" and have learned from on-site experience. The interest in the science behind what they do is non existent. If they come across a new problem that they have seen or fixed before then they are somewhat confident and can do a good jib but if not then they are more often than not chancing their arm.

The best of them are Electricians who on the whole seem to know what they are about.

I am completely dismayed with Mechanics who are among the worst area of tradesmen. Me : Did you fix the drivers light ? Mech: I did ! Did you check the other lights ? No you didn't say anything about them......... apply this to most other situations unless they are checking stuff and then they will find plenty wrong.

When it comes to pricing they often take the mick alltogether. Me: Seems like a wheel bearing is gone ? Mech takes a look. How much for a bearing. Mech goes thats about €90 for a spurious one. So he charges 90 + labour.

Quick visit to micks garage online and turns out the bearing is €55 so has the mech ripped me off ? Yes for sure.
Apply these scenarios across the line.

They all work on the basis that Joe Public doesn't know what a flux capacitor is and hasn't a clue how much it costs or even where to get it, so they fleece you accordingly.

Until an amazon.com for "Trades materials" appears online ( well done micksgarage.ie for demystifying car parts prices ) we are at the mercy of "tradesmen".

This has turned a bit rantish but until they all need to go to college and study the science of the trade for 2-3 years , work experience then as an apprentiship and then start "Trading" we will continue to get sub par service and quality.

Next time you chat with your builder ask him to explain thermal bridging and when you chat with your plumber ask him about energy efficiency etc.etc.............

Bullshit......ring chadwicks, brooks or heiton buckley to get the prices of the materials you need/want.

Ask the "tradesman" for a breakdown on labour and materials - this will give you an idea of whether it's cheaper for him to get them at a trade price or for you to supply. Remember a tradesman might add a percentage on to the price of materials to cover his costs - transport, time etc.

I'd love to know what college a blocklayer can go to for 2 or 3 years - what will he learn?

In my line of work there is no college that teaches it - everything comes from learning on site from more experienced guys - luckily i'm at it 14 years now and I can pass on that knowledge to other lads.

NuckingFacker · 10-12-2013 08:20PM

gramar wrote: »

A friend of mine's mother has builders in changing the kitchen. 'a week' I was told and that was two weeks ago. They were supposed to be finished by last Tuesday. I had a bet with her saying they wouldn't be finished by this Tuesday and unfortunately for her
poor mother they are not and by all accounts they won't be done be next Tuesday either.

A big problem with builders at least is the time quoted for jobs and all of these little problems that present themselves adding to cost, time and the mental angiush of
the unsuspecting customer. They know no job is going to go to plan and they know how long things take so should factor this in but I suppose if they told the truth in the first place it would frighten anyone off getting them in to do anything.

They're just trying to get the turkey out of it.

gramar · 10-12-2013 08:36PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

They're just trying to get the turkey out of it.

They will by the sounds of it. The only question is will it be this years or next years!

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-12-2013 08:48PM

No.. Almost all tradesmen I've come into contact with over the years have been unreliable, untrustworthy lying, cheating pricks.. I'm pretty handy at tackling most jobs as a result ~ unfortunately gas and electricity are too dangerous for me to dabble, so I'm stuck with finding a tradesman for those job.

suicide_circus · 10-12-2013 09:08PM

Andrea Green Meadowlark wrote: »

No.. Almost all tradesmen I've come into contact with over the years have been unreliable, untrustworthy lying, cheating pricks.. I'm pretty handy at tackling most jobs as a result ~ unfortunately gas and electricity are too dangerous for me to dabble, so I'm stuck with finding a tradesman for those job.

I have found exactly the same. Either the vast majority are pisstakers or we've both been very unlucky. The mad thing is, most businesses had to pull their socks up during the recession but this didn't seem to happen with tradesmen.

mattjack · 10-12-2013 09:12PM

Andrea Green Meadowlark wrote: »

No.. Almost all tradesmen I've come into contact with over the years have been unreliable, untrustworthy lying, cheating pricks.. I'm pretty handy at tackling most jobs as a result ~ unfortunately gas and electricity are too dangerous for me to dabble, so I'm stuck with finding a tradesman for those job.

Im a tradesman myself ,Mak , its bit unfortunate that a small few could tarnish your opinion of tradesmen , like every walk of life there are bad apples .Of the two soldiersI knew in the town I live in one shot his neighbour and the other bet the ****e out his wife in front of us, I still have a lot of respect for soldiers coming from an army family and a freind who served 46 years and wouldnt a small few give me the impression most soldiers are pricks.

Matt.

Voodoomelon · 10-12-2013 09:32PM

I'm in the middle of a large conservation renovation at the moment and I have to say every trade so far has been top class. From the sash window refurbishment, to lime rendering, internal lime plastering, plumbing, electrical and carpentry. All intelligent, hard working guys.

The main builder is extremely organised and punctual, emails and phones constantly regarding costs (extremely detailed and broken down), explaining building techniques, various options open to me, how plumbing systems work/integrate etc. Really top class stuff.

Having said that, getting the trades in on time is the only chore. I suppose if you're good, you have to wait your turn.

But, and a big but, over the years of seeing trades coming into my parents house, we've witnesses some shocking jobs. As in the majority of trades. From carpenters to window installers, to decorators, truly awful jobs from some of the thickest goons you would ever meet.

WilyCoyote · 10-12-2013 09:54PM

Lando Griffin wrote: »

Part of our house A conversion was cold so called out someone who does the cavity fill.
He went to the ESB box and opened it stuck his biro into a hole and explained that there was no insulation the job would be nearly Euro2000 including insulating the attic.
Got a second opinion person came with a camera scope and explained there was insulation in the cavity and only the attic needed to be done at a cost of Eur 600.
Got a third guy who said there was insulation in the wall, and to insulate the attic and see if that improved things, he suggested that I could do it myself which I agreed, total cost for whole house around Eur 360.
So I spent an Saturday in the attic rolling it out listening to football.
The house is now lovely and warm and heat on for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, in the winter.

Did you pay the third guy for his advice? I hope so.

crockholm · 10-12-2013 10:25PM

In Ireland I have never once been asked to show my certificate,folks spend the majority of the conversation on the question of price.Never been asked to produce documentation when starting for new employers.Nobody should be ashamed to ask a tradesman for documentation,in fact,those of us with it would prefer that you ask.I hate being lumped into the same category as some mullacher who when questioned about training/education waffles on about "University of Life"-avoid like the pox.

johnr1 · 10-12-2013 10:30PM

Andrea Green Meadowlark wrote: »

No.. Almost all tradesmen I've come into contact with over the years have been unreliable, untrustworthy lying, cheating pricks.. I'm pretty handy at tackling most jobs as a result ~ unfortunately gas and electricity are too dangerous for me to dabble, so I'm stuck with finding a tradesman for those job.

Nice.

And you are the guy who was PM ing me last year to convince me of how wrong I was about soldiers. Whats worse is I actually thought then that you were a genuine guy.

F*** you too, you ignorant scumbag.

And with that post, - Im outta here.

Femme_Fatale · 10-12-2013 10:35PM

It's dopey not to trust any tradesman, even if some of them are cowboys (never experienced that phenomenon myself).

Dr Turk Turkelton · 10-12-2013 10:41PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Bullshit......ring chadwicks, brooks or heiton buckley to get the prices of the materials you need/want.

Ask the "tradesman" for a breakdown on labour and materials - this will give you an idea of whether it's cheaper for him to get them at a trade price or for you to supply. Remember a tradesman might add a percentage on to the price of materials to cover his costs - transport, time etc.

I'd love to know what college a blocklayer can go to for 2 or 3 years - what will he learn?

In my line of work there is no college that teaches it - everything comes from learning on site from more experienced guys - luckily i'm at it 14 years now and I can pass on that knowledge to other lads.

There is no such trade as a "blocklayer".
They are bricklayers which is a trade and they do a four year apprenticeship as do all proper tradesmen.
This involves a lot of off site training in IT's learning the theory behind their chosen trade not like cowboys who learn to be "tradesmen" with on site experience.
These people would be considered to be skilled labourers.

mfceiling · 10-12-2013 11:01PM

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

There is no such trade as a "blocklayer".
They are bricklayers which is a trade and they do a four year apprenticeship as do all proper tradesmen.
This involves a lot of off site training in IT's learning the theory behind their chosen trade not like cowboys who learn to be "tradesmen" with on site experience.
These people would be considered to be skilled labourers.

Bricklayer/Blocklayer - the poster said they should go to college for 2-3 years, then go on to site for work experience, then start an apprenticeship and then they can become a blocklayer/bricklayer...for fucks sake, they'd be ready for the pension then!!

Dr Turk Turkelton · 10-12-2013 11:11PM

They do their college work in the off site training in the IT.
That is where they learn their theory.

Tony EH · 11-12-2013 10:13AM

The best approach the average punter can take is to assume that all "tradesmen" are chancers and that they are out to fleece you.

Because no matter how many indignant replies you might get on here, the fact is, that in this country, the bad stories outweigh the good stories...by a huge margin.

Only once have I had the good fortune to deal with a decent lad. He installed our kitchen for us. Honest guys do exist, but they are few and far between.

Every other time, it's been a pain in the fucking arse.

Assume the worst always and play it from there. It'll serve you well to err on the side of caution.

Tony EH · 11-12-2013 10:19AM

crockholm wrote: »

In Ireland I have never once been asked to show my certificate,folks spend the majority of the conversation on the question of price.Never been asked to produce documentation when starting for new employers.Nobody should be ashamed to ask a tradesman for documentation,in fact,those of us with it would prefer that you ask.I hate being lumped into the same category as some mullacher who when questioned about training/education waffles on about "University of Life"-avoid like the pox.

You are the one who should be offering to show your documentation as a matter of course.

Most people don't even know about the certs that are awarded to tradesmen, or what they would even look like if they actually saw them. The could be looking at a "Best Carpenter in the World" cert and not have a clue.

Blaming the punter for something that YOU should be furnishing them with is a bit ridiculous.

As a flipside to your point, I have never been once provided with documentation, or even offered it without asking.

crockholm · 11-12-2013 10:32AM

Tony EH wrote: »

You are the one who should be offering to show your documentation as a matter of course.

Most people don't even know about the certs that are awarded to tradesmen, or what they would even look like if they actually saw them. The could be looking at a "Best Carpenter in the World" cert and not have a clue.

Blaming the punter for something that YOU should be furnishing them with is a bit ridiculous.

As a flipside to your point, I have never been once provided with documentation, or even offered it without asking.

You're right,I should wear it around my neck on the end of a big B.A. Baracus type gold chain. It's honestly people like you who deserve to be ripped off if you Think you could treat me like ****.
I said I was never asked for it,I never said I didn't show it,here in Sweden I have to show it when applying for jobs.
So do us all a favour and go play with the electrics yourself.

Tony EH · 11-12-2013 10:40AM

crockholm wrote: »

You're right,I should wear it around my neck on the end of a big B.A. Baracus type gold chain.

No, tradesmen should offer to show their documentation when dealing with customers. Not hide behind a "I wasn't asked" excuse.

crockholm wrote: »

It's honestly people like you who deserve to be ripped off if you Think you could treat me like ****.

Nice.

crockholm wrote: »

here in Sweden I have to show it when applying for jobs.

I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden, nor do I care.

crockholm wrote: »

So do us all a favour and go play with the electrics yourself.

Again...nice.

:pac:

With your words above, you've perfectly illustrated why people don't (and shouldn't) trust tradesmen.

Lando Griffin · 11-12-2013 10:41AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Did you pay the third guy for his advice? I hope so.

Not a chance.
Told him I had no cash on me that day and to call back the following Friday.
He lives over 20 miles so not worth his while I suppose ( hope ).

biko · 11-12-2013 10:45AM

Dealing with tradesmen and car mechanics have done wonders for my DIY skills.

crockholm · 11-12-2013 10:50AM

Tony EH wrote: »

No, tradesmen should offer to show their documentation when dealing with customers. Not hide behind a "I wasn't asked" excuse.

Nice.

I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden, nor do I care.

Again...nice.

:pac:

With your words above, you've perfectly illustrated why people don't (and shouldn't) trust tradesmen.

Go to your local TD and demand that tradesmen should make clients aware of their documentation or lack thereof,it is probably the one thing we would have in common.
It is normal behaviour to show credentials throughout western Europe , why Irish people don't do this also,is beyond my comprehension.

Gmol · 11-12-2013 10:50AM

Got a great tradesman off a website and wouldn't have anyone else work on my house, I actually recommended him to another boardsie who couldn't find a reliable tradesman and they were very happy with the work he did
so you can be lucky

Tony EH · 11-12-2013 10:54AM

crockholm wrote: »

It is normal behaviour to show credentials throughout western Europe , why Irish people don't do this also,is beyond my comprehension.

Because the trade over here is full to the brim with rip off merchants and chancers.

There are a lot of good ideas we could take from Europe.

IK09 · 11-12-2013 11:02AM

To be perfectly honest I think that we have some of the finest tradesmen in the world here. My brother is a plumber and a Gas/Oil boiler technician. He can do anything, he is a true professional. He could take any kind of boiler apart, clean it and put it back together again(in working order).

I worked with him on a few jobs (laboring when I was out of work) and the lengths he goes to, to make sure that the client will be not only be happy, but will get him again are unbelievable. And the amount of **** he has to put up with in order to get paid are extraordinary. It has even come to the stage where (in my spare time) I have to call to peoples houses/businesses and get money out of them as he is too nice to go asking for it.

The amount of jobs that we went to where there was a wire disconnected or something so extremely simple to fix, such as flicking a switch! When asking the person about it, they say they had another fella in and he couldn't fix it, it is more like they were not getting paid so left the most simple aspect, like the first thing you would check, undone as a warning to the next guy that came in to look at the issue. Apparently, this is common practice amongst tradesmen, to warn each other about the client.

A lot of the work he does now is for property management companies as they can see the quality of his work, where the regular punter will only take advantage of him because hes too soft on people.

For what my brother tells me, and this is his opinion, not mine. It is the well off people who will always haggle when the work is done or tell you they will pay next week or some such excuse and put you off forever. He says it is the regular middle class that will not ask for the job to be done until they have the money to pay for it.

crockholm · 11-12-2013 11:37AM

IK09 wrote: »

To be perfectly honest I think that we have some of the finest tradesmen in the world here. My brother is a plumber and a Gas/Oil boiler technician. He can do anything, he is a true professional. He could take any kind of boiler apart, clean it and put it back together again(in working order).

I worked with him on a few jobs (laboring when I was out of work) and the lengths he goes to, to make sure that the client will be not only be happy, but will get him again are unbelievable. And the amount of **** he has to put up with in order to get paid are extraordinary. It has even come to the stage where (in my spare time) I have to call to peoples houses/businesses and get money out of them as he is too nice to go asking for it.

The amount of jobs that we went to where there was a wire disconnected or something so extremely simple to fix, such as flicking a switch! When asking the person about it, they say they had another fella in and he couldn't fix it, it is more like they were not getting paid so left the most simple aspect, like the first thing you would check, undone as a warning to the next guy that came in to look at the issue. Apparently, this is common practice amounts tradesmen, to warn each other about the client.

A lot of the work he does now is for property management companies as they can see the quality of his work, where the regular punter will only take advantage of him because hes too soft on people.

For what my brother tells me, and this is his opinion, not mine. It is the well off people who will always haggle when the work is done or tell you they will pay next week or some such excuse and put you off forever. He says it is the regular middle class that will not ask for the job to be done until they have the money to pay for it.

Ditto.
Some people are just cranks and Believe that we're part of some shylock-esqe coven who go out to screw people deliberately(see above).I have been warned by other tradesmen about other clients and companies that are difficult to work with.The cranks then go the mullachers and predictably have sub-standard work done.

You would have to be blind to not acknowledge some of the crap service that has permeated through the Construction industry,unfortunately during the boom people accecpted work that was/is unaccecptable-an elderly relative in the Dublin region had substandard work done on her extention.

The Point that I'm trying to make is that the cowboys make Life shyte for clients and tradesmen alike, and I for one would agree with tighter Controls on Construction/mechanic workers,best for everyone in the long-run.

Tony EH · 11-12-2013 12:09PM

It wasn't just "during the boom". Tradesmen in this country have had an appalling reputation for decades. So bad is the rep, that customers hate having to go through the hassle of "getting someone in" to do a job on the house, etc.

The reason for that is obvious. The trades are full of chancers out to make a quick buck and rip off the unsuspecting customer.

While there are decent people involved, by and large, most people have awful stories to share, rather than glowing reports. That's no accident and it isn't a matter of a "bad few" making life crap for the rest.

There wouldn't be so much bad blood if the majority of the time the customer was satisfied with the level of work they ended up with.

So prevalent are the bad reports that the only conclusion someone can come to is that the chancers involved in the "game" are the majority, making the minority suffer the reputation as a whole.

It wasn't a "boom" thing. It's been a fact long before that.

and I'll tell you something...I'm no fucking "crank" lad. I've had to deal with some right gits posing as "tradesmen" in my time.

conorhal · 11-12-2013 12:35PM

Primus Pilus wrote: »

Tradesman are like like any profession, you have lazy individuals and some who do a bang up job. The thing about tradesman is they set their own prices, if you're cheap and hire a someone cheap, you'll probably get a cheaply done job. No different than any service or product really.

I accept you argument, it's the ones that charge a massive rate for cheaply done job that get me.
Price is often no garentee of quality, I've been stung a few times and it's been the expensive jobs that have been the most half arsed. There seems to be many in the trades that think the Celtic tiger is still booming and that they can charge what they like, turn up when they like and do the job as poorly as they like.
You have to watch feckers like a hawk if you want a job done properly.

crockholm · 11-12-2013 12:43PM

Who the actual fukk actually likes dealing with tradesmen? You deal with a tradesman because something is wrong with the car,the heating,the electricity,the tiling etc. You only go to them when there is a problem,you in particular seem to take your irrational grudge with you,and I'm not one bit surprised that you have problems,I certainly wouldn't do business with you-recession or otherwise.Timesink,a Word I discovered on this site seems applicable.

If you despair at the quality of Irish trades and Crafts,feel free to browse through the rsults pages of the World Skills Championships to see how the Irish do against international competetion.

The reason the mullachers exist,and you are right,they were there pre boom and like cockroaches have a knack of surviving hardships,is because people use them as a low cost alternative.

As for the Point about "ask anybody here",sure,ask anybody here about AGS and you'll here a fair amount of guff that would have you Believe that it run by a cabal of charlatans,which is of course a load of bs hyperbole,but never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

Tradesmen : Do you trust them?

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