The Game By Neil strauss

Legs.Eleven · 09-12-2013 03:50PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

No, the question that I put my post up in response to; this one.

I don't think PUA genuinely boosts the confidence of men. A self-help book on improving self-confidence would be more effective long-term. The use of crutches will only get you so far.

Also, this became a discussion on PUA generally and not just a discussion on The Game.

beano345 · 09-12-2013 04:08PM

An alternative? Why dont women approach men for a change...or is that against social norms

Vitaliorange · 09-12-2013 04:11PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nah, there's no mistaking it Vitaliorange. Whatever you want to call it, it's juvenile, it's insidious, and yes, it IS insulting. You're insulting another person in an attempt to bring them down to your level of insecurity.

That's actually what I find most insulting about the whole PUA ideology - it's insulting to the intelligence of grown men, exploiting their desperation caused by their insecurities, and filling their heads with nonsense that doesn't work.

And before you say it does - manipulating and intimidating naive young girls is no great boast, even the most clueless gobshìte can do that. If you need a book, or some immature "frat boy" to tell you how to do it, then what does that say about your own level of intelligence?

For someone so vehemently against insulting others it would appear you are trying your best to be insulting yourself.

thegreatgonzo · 09-12-2013 04:11PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

The goal is to actually become more interesting.

How?

Femme_Fatale · 09-12-2013 04:12PM

beano345 wrote: »

An alternative? Why dont women approach men for a change...or is that against social norms

No it isn't. Nobody said it is.

Muise... · 09-12-2013 04:12PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

For someone so vehemently against insulting others it would appear you are trying your best to be insulting yourself.

you must be like sooooo turned on right now.

Vitaliorange · 09-12-2013 04:13PM

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

How?

Removing anxiety, and not caring what anyone thinks. Your personality blossoms without the poison that is anxiety.

beano345 · 09-12-2013 04:16PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No it isn't. Nobody said it is.

Yet its hardly common practice for women to do this and its expected off men to do the approaching, and suffer the rejection

thegreatgonzo · 09-12-2013 04:17PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

Removing anxiety, and not caring what anyone thinks. Your personality blossoms without the poison that is anxiety.

That's just words. What advice does it give a man on how to become a well rounded self confident person who respects himself and the other people (including women!) he comes into contact with? Does it encourage him to develop himself intellectually? Does it encourage him to think about the consequences of his actions in his everyday life?

Earthhorse · 09-12-2013 04:17PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I don't think PUA genuinely boosts the confidence of men. A self-help book on improving self-confidence would be more effective long-term. The use of crutches will only get you so far.

I disagree. I think they need books that specifically advise them on their romantic interactions with women and their confidence regarding same. If some of the techniques therein overlap with general self improvement, then so be it.

In regard to crutches, they are usually a necessary step in improvement or recovery. Be it a canned routine to start a conversation, anti-depressants to help while you receive counseling, a breathing technique to help calm your nerves before an interview or actual physical crutches before you put your full weight back on your leg, there's nothing wrong with using them, usually temporarily, but sometimes even permanently if there are no meaningful side effects.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Also, this became a discussion on PUA generally and not just a discussion on The Game.

Yeah, I do know that, but I've restricted my input by reference to it.

thegreatgonzo · 09-12-2013 04:23PM

beano345 wrote: »

An alternative? Why dont women approach men for a change...or is that against social norms

Plenty do. Even I have been the one to make the first move on a few occasions and I would consider myself shy in this regard.

beano345 · 09-12-2013 04:28PM

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

Plenty do. Even I have been the one to make the first move on a few occasions and I would consider myself shy in this regard.

I'd have to call bs on a lot of women who say that on the internet versus in reality you'd rarely see a lone female trying to approach a gang of lads in a bar with the intention of scoring

--Kaiser-- · 09-12-2013 04:38PM

beano345 wrote: »

I'd have to call bs on a lot of women who say that on the internet versus in reality you'd rarely see a lone female trying to approach a gang of lads in a bar with the intention of scoring

Except any pub with a few hen nights on....you'd be lucky to escape with your shirt intact with some of them

Frank Black · 09-12-2013 04:38PM

Don't you hate when someone posts up a statement like this.

beano345 wrote: »

An alternative? Why dont women approach men for a change...or is that against social norms

Gets an answer.

And then changes the statement to this.

beano345 wrote: »

I'd have to call bs on a lot of women who say that on the internet versus in reality you'd rarely see a lone female trying to approach a gang of lads in a bar with the intention of scoring

beano345 · 09-12-2013 04:41PM

Frank Black wrote: »

Don't you hate when someone posts up a statement like this.

Gets an answer.

And then changes the statement to this.

Well you dont see the market for pua aimed mostly at women

Vitaliorange · 09-12-2013 04:48PM

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

That's just words. What advice does it give a man on how to become a well rounded self confident person who respects himself and the other people (including women!) he comes into contact with? Does it encourage him to develop himself intellectually? Does it encourage him to think about the consequences of his actions in his everyday life?

Yes there is general self help too. If you look at the countless rsdnation videos for example you'll that their are many aimed at developing yourelf in all areas of your life. There lots of advice on how to develop a work ethic and to develop your passions in life. Also mental health topics such as meditation are encouraged.

Legs.Eleven · 09-12-2013 04:49PM

I disagree. I think they need books that specifically advise them on their romantic interactions with women and their confidence regarding same. If some of the techniques therein overlap with general self improvement, then so be it.

In regard to crutches, they are usually a necessary step in improvement or recovery. Be it a canned routine to start a conversation, anti-depressants to help while you receive counseling, a breathing technique to help calm your nerves before an interview or actual physical crutches before you put your full weight back on your leg, there's nothing wrong with using them, usually temporarily, but sometimes even permanently if there are no meaningful side effects.

Fair enough, Earthhorse. I understand that someone like yourself would use what you've read for good and not for evil (;)) but unfortunately I've read too much hateful nonsense (not just related to The Game) that has turned me off completely. I'm open to being proven wrong on the topic though but I suppose I haven't heard enough from "normal" people to be convinced just yet that this is the answer.

Yeah, I do know that, but I've restricted my input by reference to it.

My input hasn't been restricted to it, so we're not really on the same page.

thegreatgonzo · 09-12-2013 04:56PM

beano345 wrote: »

I'd have to call bs on a lot of women who say that on the internet versus in reality you'd rarely see a lone female trying to approach a gang of lads in a bar with the intention of scoring

Call bs if you like. I didn't actually say anything about a lone woman approaching a gang of lads at a bar did I though?

Earthhorse · 09-12-2013 05:01PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Fair enough, Earthhorse. I understand that someone like yourself would use what you've read for good and not for evil (;)) but unfortunately I've read too much hateful nonsense (not just related to The Game) that has turned me off completely. I'm open to being proven wrong on the topic though but I suppose I haven't heard enough from "normal" people to be convinced just yet that this is the answer.

Well, just for the record I don't use any of this stuff. A friend lent me the book saying I would be really good at negging (and he's right, I would be!) but I don't have any interesting in using it myself. The only other stuff I've read about are threads like this online or articles. I just think it produces an awful lot of overreaction from its critics (not just you) whenever it's brought up. There seems to be a huge, inflated focus on it's shortcomings and not enough on what's potentially good about it.

My input hasn't been restricted to it, so we're not really on the same page.

I'm on page 34.

Czarcasm · 09-12-2013 05:03PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

For someone so vehemently against insulting others it would appear you are trying your best to be insulting yourself.

Ahh here, I've been very respectful of you Vitali (Do you honestly think I have nothing better to be doing than reading this book? I'm only reading it so I can understand better what you see in it!). I brought it home there at lunch (printed out all 264 pages of it, my printer was screaming for mercy!) and my wife asked me what was it about. I explained the general idea... She still hasn't stopped laughing an hour later.

Between that, and the opinions of the majority in this thread, does that not tell you that your opinions about the success (or lack thereof), may be misguided?

I could've been far more dismissive of the whole idea, but when I meet somebody espousing the effectiveness of PUA, I don't feel a need to insult them, I feel they need far more help than I'm qualified to give them. They need professional therapy to deal with their underlying insecurity and self-esteem issues. Being taught how to manipulate and intimidate young girls is no way to resolve a person's issues with themselves. That's just passing the buck IMO, projecting your issues onto someone more naive than yourself.

PUA works off the theory that you throw enough shìt at the wall, some of it's bound to stick, and that's why insecure people who crave validation buy into the ideology - You throw yourself at enough women, you're bound to hit paydirt eventually. I can't think of a whole lot more demoralising tbh.

You linked to a video where the guy related a silly story about one of his "students" carrying a girl out of the nightclub and bunging her into a cab, then talking about "resting his dong" on a bootcamp weekend (sounds to me like the little boy that couldn't go for a piss "because all the other boys are watching", in other words - he wasn't going to do any approaching in case his "students" would see how many times girls would tell him to piss off!), and you've yet to respond to the fact that he talks about his "When one of my students gets laid, I get laid by proxy" nonsense. This is a video now that YOU linked to, trying to back up your assertion that PUA has "changed" in the last ten years.

I wonder if you'll take the time out of your day to watch four minutes of a video clip. It's a speech given by Ashton Kutcher to an audience of young people at an awards ceremony. Ashton kutcher has been married to and dated some of the smartest, sexiest women in the world, women that PUA clowns will only ever talk about, dream about.

Here's HIS advice about what makes a person confident, successful and attractive -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNXwKGZHmDc

Legs.Eleven · 09-12-2013 05:16PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Well, just for the record I don't use any of this stuff. A friend lent me the book saying I would be really good at negging (and he's right, I would be!) but I don't have any interesting in using it myself. The only other stuff I've read about are threads like this online or articles. I just think it produces an awful lot of overreaction from its critics (not just you) whenever it's brought up. There seems to be a huge, inflated focus on it's shortcomings and not enough on what's potentially good about it.

I think people on here are reacting to the attitudes of a lot of its users as opposed to the book's content. I've no idea if Balaclava was a troll or not but his attitude is common enough among discussions on PUA on the net. I'd be interested in hearing less from his type and from more sensible people with healthier attitudes to women.

Vitaliorange · 09-12-2013 05:19PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh here, I've been very respectful of you Vitali (Do you honestly think I have nothing better to be doing than reading this book? I'm only reading it so I can understand better what you see in it!). I brought it home there at lunch (printed out all 264 pages of it, my printer was screaming for mercy!) and my wife asked me what was it about. I explained the general idea... She still hasn't stopped laughing an hour later.

Between that, and the opinions of the majority in this thread, does that not tell you that your opinions about the success (or lack thereof), may be misguided?

I could've been far more dismissive of the whole idea, but when I meet somebody espousing the effectiveness of PUA, I don't feel a need to insult them, I feel they need far more help than I'm qualified to give them. They need professional therapy to deal with their underlying insecurity and self-esteem issues. Being taught how to manipulate and intimidate young girls is no way to resolve a person's issues with themselves. That's just passing the buck IMO, projecting your issues onto someone more naive than yourself.

PUA works off the theory that you throw enough shìt at the wall, some of it's bound to stick, and that's why insecure people who crave validation buy into the ideology - You throw yourself at enough women, you're bound to hit paydirt eventually. I can't think of a whole lot more demoralising tbh.

You linked to a video where the guy related a silly story about one of his "students" carrying a girl out of the nightclub and bunging her into a cab, then talking about "resting his dong" on a bootcamp weekend (sounds to me like the little boy that couldn't go for a piss "because all the other boys are watching", in other words - he wasn't going to do any approaching in case his "students" would see how many times girls would tell him to piss off!), and you've yet to respond to the fact that he talks about his "When one of my students gets laid, I get laid by proxy" nonsense. This is a video now that YOU linked to, trying to back up your assertion that PUA has "changed" in the last ten years.

I wonder if you'll take the time out of your day to watch four minutes of a video clip. It's a speech given by Ashton Kutcher to an audience of young people at an awards ceremony. Ashton kutcher has been married to and dated some of the smartest, sexiest women in the world, women that PUA clowns will only ever talk about, dream about.

Here's HIS advice about what makes a person confident, successful and attractive -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNXwKGZHmDc

I appreciate you took the time to print it out. Ill have a look at that video after work.

Earthhorse · 09-12-2013 05:20PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I think people on here are reacting to the attitudes of a lot of its users as opposed to the book's content. I've no idea if Balaclava was a troll or not but his attitude is common enough among discussions on PUA on the net. I'd be interested in hearing less from his type and from more sensible people with healthier attitudes to women.

Even in threads where there hasn't been a protagonist of that nature I've seen people react in that manner. It's sort of one of those "par for the course" discussions we get on boards time and time again.

Fentdog84 · 09-12-2013 05:46PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

There were always a minority of men who were capable of seducing women at will and the rest were either ok or struggled badly.

To get good with women requires practice and ideally some good mentors to guide you who know what they are talking about.

Ive read some PUA stuff and i can tell you it is all for the most part a scam, a bunch of nonsense.
the key to pulling good looking women is just be relaxed, smile and be confident.And be honest. If you want to ask her out or take her home etc just tell her so. She can only either say yes or no. Its not the rocket science like the PUA guys make it.

--Kaiser-- · 09-12-2013 06:24PM

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Ive read some PUA stuff and i can tell you it is all for the most part a scam, a bunch of nonsense.
the key to pulling good looking women is just be relaxed, smile and be confident.And be honest. If you want to ask her out or take her home etc just tell her so. She can only either say yes or no. Its not the rocket science like the PUA guys make it.

This is precisely why there is a market for PUA stuff - telling some people to 'be confident' is like telling them to be 6 inches taller - it's not helpful advice at all

old hippy · 09-12-2013 06:29PM

beano345 wrote: »

Well you dont see the market for pua aimed mostly at women

I'm pretty sure I remember all these women's magazines with features like "how to meet the man of your dreams" and other derivatives...

Anyways, women do approach men. It may not be as calculated as what this PUA stuff recommends but it happens, all over the place.

Pug160 · 09-12-2013 06:35PM

beano345 wrote: »

An alternative? Why dont women approach men for a change...or is that against social norms

They sometimes do but it generally doesn't end well, for all sorts of reasons. Women quite often make subtle hints that a lot of men don't read up on. They're not approaching as such but they're positioning themselves around you in order to entice you in, kind of thing. I can't speak for everyone, but from my own personal experience and from watching friends etc, the girls who approached directly were not girls we were all that attracted to.

Vitaliorange · 09-12-2013 06:42PM

Pug160 wrote: »

They sometimes do but it generally doesn't end well, for all sorts of reasons. Women quite often make subtle hints that a lot of men don't read up on. They're not approaching as such but they're positioning themselves around you in order to entice you in, kind of thing. I can't speak for everyone, but from my own personal experience and from watching friends etc, the girls who approached directly were not girls we were all that attracted to.

Yep I'd agree largely with this. "Girl game" involves standing progressively nearer the man of interest, or bumping into or brushing past your man of interest in hope that he will initiate conversation.

thegreatgonzo · 09-12-2013 07:08PM

Vitaliorange wrote: »

Yep I'd agree largely with this. "Girl game" involves standing progressively nearer the man of interest, or bumping into or brushing past your man of interest in hope that he will initiate conversation.

You are talking about a pub/club environment. Most women wouldn't directly proposition a man they don't know in this kind of environment. But speaking for myself, I have approached guys I knew through friends when I met them out and made the first move.
The only time I ever made the first move with a stranger was with a guy who worked in a music store who I thought was cute.
I never think of it as a 'game'. Some men I find attractive, more I don't so why have a game when I'm dealing with individuals? There are always reasons beyond physical attributes that make me attracted to someone so I just be myself.

WilyCoyote · 09-12-2013 07:20PM

The Blue Danube by Johann Strauss

The Game By Neil strauss

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