Tim Noakes on Carbohydrates

LloydChristmas · 06-12-2013 4:47pm #1

Has anyone taken Tim's beliefs on board to cut down on carbs and try to focus on taking more protein, fats into the body and how has it gone for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsx72V4IpJY

Enduro · 06-12-2013 5:13pm

Not him in particular, but up to date nutrition theory in general. Yes, and its going very well!

drquirky · 06-12-2013 5:30pm

It certainly isn;t the diet that the best runners in the world are following. I'd be curious if someone could name me one runner who placed highly in either the WC's or Olympics who actually follows this nonsense?

sideswipe · 06-12-2013 5:56pm

drquirky wrote: »

It certainly isn;t the diet that the best runners in the world are following. I'd be curious if someone could name me one runner who placed highly in either the WC's or Olympics who actually follows this nonsense?

Here's one

morceli · 06-12-2013 5:58pm

sideswipe wrote: »

Here's one

fancy dan sprinters dont count when their endurance event is 200m

. But he did also have fires .

LloydChristmas · 06-12-2013 6:10pm

Enduro care to elaborate?

Do you take part in endurance events and if so what kind of diet do you follow?

Do you rely on a low carb intake with high protein and fat etc?

Enduro · 06-12-2013 6:45pm

LloydChristmas wrote: »

Enduro care to elaborate?

Do you take part in endurance events and if so what kind of diet do you follow?

Do you rely on a low carb intake with high protein and fat etc?

Yes, amongst other things I do quite a lot of ultrarunning. I'd describe my diet as "erring towards paleo"! Nothing rigid. I don't rely on a low carb intake, but I'm striving to reduce it. I am trying to increase the amounts of fats and protein in my diet. This is for general health as well as sports performance. The main thing which I have always aimed at is to each as much as possible food which is natural, and avoid as much as possible food which is processed.

I can get through very long races with very little food. Have a look at some of my race reports on my blog from this year to see how much this can be pushed.

Two more interesting links for you. First there is this, which is a great talk coming up shortly by a friend of mine, and fellow Irish international ultrarunner, Barry Murray. Barry is a professional sports nutritionist. He currently works with the BMC pro cycling team, and has worked with tons of top level athletes in Ireland and abroad.

Secondly, for general nutrtional information (not sports related at all) have a look at Authority Nutrition. Lots of interesting articles and discussion in there, all backed up with links to good science.

woodchopper · 06-12-2013 8:52pm

Enduro wrote: »

Barry is a professional sports nutritionist. He currently works with the BMC pro cycling team, and has worked with tons of top level athletes in Ireland and abroad.

.

Is this the same BMC team that got bitch slapped all over France last July by Team Sky?

They blew up in the mountains so if I were looking for advice Id read up on Team Sky who are big into basmati rice, and lower grain carbs like quinoa, sweet potato and specially cooked brown breads.

corny · 06-12-2013 11:44pm

woodchopper wrote: »

Is this the same BMC team that got bitch slapped all over France last July by Team Sky?

They blew up in the mountains so if I were looking for advice Id read up on Team Sky who are big into basmati rice, and lower grain carbs like quinoa, sweet potato and specially cooked brown breads.

I don't know what these 'marginal gains' entail but theres no way i'm going to believe a comfortable chair or a bit of rice makes a substantial difference. <Snip>

ecoli · 07-12-2013 1:04pm

Mod: Keep Speculation to a minimum

BeepBeep67 · 07-12-2013 1:31pm

I would have thought all the Sky team used EPG (Electronic Programming Guide) :pac:

drquirky · 07-12-2013 2:35pm

I'll say it again: Can anyone name me even one WC/ Olympic medalist runner who follows paleo/ Tim Noakes diet?

07-12-2013 5:02pm

drquirky wrote: »

I'll say it again: Can anyone name me even one WC/ Olympic medalist runner who follows paleo/ Tim Noakes diet?

So what diet do WC/Olympic medalist runners follow?

ecoli · 07-12-2013 5:43pm

28064212 wrote: »

So what diet do WC/Olympic medalist runners follow?

Look at the East African athletes with staple diets based around Ugali and injera
http://www.jissn.com/content/8/1/7#B25

Or how about the Tarahumarans (admittedly no Global Championship representatives)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/433816?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Everything however needs to be put into context. Bolts reference of chicken nuggets is one used by many in an attempt to ignore the importance of nutrition with regard performance but this is not an uncommon phenomenon amongst elite athletes travelling. Sometimes to avoid the risk of trying untested local cuisine many athletes will rely on the likes of global brands such as McDonald's as a constant that their body is used to consuming. If they were in their usual training setting it would be a completely different story but the uncertainty of how their body will react is a risk many are not willing to take.

Similarly performance nutrition wouldn't always correlate with optimum nutrition. An example of this would be the likes of Gels or energy drinks in the marathon. If you were to advice them as part of your daily nutrition many would laugh at you yet they serve a purpose in that moment in time.

Nutrition is something that people see in a different light to training but should be viewed with the same approach - improve through consistency and progression. Eat clean and focus on changing slowly to allow your body to adapt to the changes. Enduro made a good point in that he is not low carb but is striving for it. I think people should view nutrition in the same regard. You don't just start eating health, you should strive to improve your diet.

Looking at an athletes diet in isolation is also a slippery slope given the influential factors such as economical and climate

Raighne · 07-12-2013 8:13pm

Running a ketosis experiment based on the protocols in the "Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" and related books at the moment. Jury is still out as I am midway through but here's my first post on it with initial observations:
Intro:http://www.mountain-runner.com/2013/10/diary-my-keto-experiment.html
Day 1: http://www.mountain-runner.com/2013/11/diary-day-1on-keto-diet.html
Day 2-3: http://www.mountain-runner.com/2013/11/diary-weekend-ketosis-ups-and-downs.html

Since this was written what I have noticed is:

- No energy crashes during any stage of the day
- Improved sleep and mental performance
- Performance in high intensity workouts sharply decreased (as expected, protocol recommends abstaining from these for at least the first 8 weeks)
- No impact on endurance performance
- Sharp decrease in inflammation time after any type of workout
- Ketosis measurements progressing as expected
- Body composition is improving
- Your urine smells odd! (ketones!)

Jury is still out, but is has definitely been an interesting experiment. if there's one big lesson I take from 2013 personally it is this: no amount of debate can replace running an experiment of one (N=1). This is especially true as a coach where i think part of our professional responsibility is to be able to speak to as many methods as possible from personal experience when clients ask.

I am currently reading all of Dr Jack Kruse's work, blogs and podcasts as I noticed that the diet and well-being puzzle is hugely incomplete without his theories (such as cold thermogenesis and other factors influencing biochemistry)

One major conclusion is that what macronutrients have the most beneficial effect depends on the season (temperature exposure) and state of your circadean rhythms. I won't even attempt to explain it any clearer than that as I am still digesting the enormous amount of content he lays out. For anyone who wants to look into it deeply it's probably worthwhile investing the few hundred hours it will take to read all the relevant literature.

Enduro · 09-12-2013 10:56am

drquirky wrote: »

I'll say it again: Can anyone name me even one WC/ Olympic medalist runner who follows paleo/ Tim Noakes diet?

There'd be no evolution of, well anything really, if everyone just continuously copied those who came before. It's good to actually think for yourself, rather than slavishly copy others.

drquirky · 09-12-2013 12:07pm

Enduro wrote: »

It's good to actually think for yourself, rather than slavishly copy others.

That post makes an awful lot of pretty stupid assumptions. TBH man if you wanna win the contest for longest amount of time spent not eating while on an 86 hour jog/ kayak/bareback horse ride through the only undiscovered part of the Amazon then fair play- hell you can even call yourself "world champion" at that, if you wish - but don't expect me to think that your strategy for doing it constitutes sound advise on an "Athletics" forum.

I am belabouring the point about Olympic/ WC caliber athletes and their diet because as I see it- times have continued to break ground and evolve over the last 30 years w/ astonishing speed. While this has happened I'd imagine very little of the Kenyan/ Ethopian distance runner's diet has changed. My point is we are most likely over thinking the importance of purely scientific nutrition. I think the general tone of the thread probably makes sense, eat as clean as you can, stay away from processed foods and eat a balanced diet. My major beef w/ Noakes et al is that I've yet to see an elite distance runner who has benefited from eating low carbs.

BeepBeep67 · 09-12-2013 2:15pm

drquirky wrote: »

That post makes an awful lot of pretty stupid assumptions. TBH man if you wanna win the contest for longest amount of time spent not eating while on an 86 hour jog/ kayak/bareback horse ride through the only undiscovered part of the Amazon then fair play- hell you can even call yourself "world champion" at that, if you wish - but don't expect me to think that your strategy for doing it constitutes sound advise on an "Athletics" forum.

I am belabouring the point about Olympic/ WC caliber athletes and their diet because as I see it- times have continued to break ground and evolve over the last 30 years w/ astonishing speed. While this has happened I'd imagine very little of the Kenyan/ Ethopian distance runner's diet has changed. My point is we are most likely over thinking the importance of purely scientific nutrition. I think the general tone of the thread probably makes sense, eat as clean as you can, stay away from processed foods and eat a balanced diet. My major beef w/ Noakes et al is that I've yet to see an elite distance runner who has benefited from eating low carbs.

theboyblunder · 09-12-2013 6:16pm

Dont want to be a troll
Dont want to be a troll
Dont want to be a troll

cant. resist.

a. little. information. is. a. dangerous..........

Ok, its gone.

Resonable post: Arguably, the body is set up to do do only two things

1. Improve the possibility of you passing on your genes
2. Regulate your blood glucose levels.

Thats it. So you are messing with one of the body's two core missions. Obviously we all know that horsing in the mars bars is a bad idea, but cutting sugar out is relying on a stopgap form of metabolism for your energy. A mechanism which prevented our ancestors from dying when real food was scarce.

This whole paleo diet thing scares me. Have a read about carnivore metabolism?.....they are often metabolically retarded, with crappy versions of enzymes that we have. We evolved to be omnivores, and now we are stuck as omnivores. Ive heard noakes talk about this stuff and he comes across as a guy who barely understands what he is saying. It worked for him and his diabetes-predisposed family, so now he wants everyone to try. That ice-age stuff is crazy. Things dont change that quickly.

Here's one which I think is interesting which ive not heard anyone point out yet. If carbohydrates are bad, why is the biggest single component of human breast milk (after water) carbohydrate? Surely we would have evolved (during this ice age) a mechanism for extruding lard for babies out of breasts (where am I going with this?

). Why would we evolve systems for pumping these evil, inflammation-causing carbohydrate molecules into developing babies?

Since regulating your blood sugar is the key, it follows (IMO) that low GI food is a good thing (preventing glucose spikes, insulin response etc), but cutting out the main source of ATP-generating molecules in your diet, over the long term, and throwing in the stress of endurance exercise, is a bad idea.

Like everything else, when the hype dies down I'd bet that the data (and balance of opinion) will point back to what everyone's grandparents knew well: a little bit of everything is best.

Enduro · 09-12-2013 6:35pm

drquirky wrote: »

I am belabouring the point about Olympic/ WC caliber athletes and their diet because as I see it- times have continued to break ground and evolve over the last 30 years w/ astonishing speed. While this has happened I'd imagine very little of the Kenyan/ Ethopian distance runner's diet has changed. My point is we are most likely over thinking the importance of purely scientific nutrition. I think the general tone of the thread probably makes sense, eat as clean as you can, stay away from processed foods and eat a balanced diet. My major beef w/ Noakes et al is that I've yet to see an elite distance runner who has benefited from eating low carbs.

The point I'm trying to get through is just because received wisdom says something, or everyone thinks something is true doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct, or that there isn't a better way. "The world is flat" is an good example of something that was obvious to everyone at one point. And when an alternative theory was postulated the full weight of orthodox establishment was brought to bear to defend the orthodfox theory. They were still wrong though. There is always huge resistance to any change to orthodoxy, or the thinking that something is right because that's the way it always has been. Questioning these assumptions is tends to be how major breakthroughs are discovered.

I'm not sure if this...

drquirky wrote: »

My point is we are most likely over thinking the importance of purely scientific nutrition

is trying to say that science should be ignored, or are you saying that general nutrional theory doesn't apply to athletes. Either sounds dubious, to say the least, to me, especially the former.

In general nutrition at the moment there is a lot of questioning of orthodoxy at the moment. There is a growing body of good science out there which discovering major health benifits for HFLC style diets. Tim Noakes himself is a well regarded scientist, and more importantly one who is prepared to question orthodoxy. Even more interesting are the results his athletes have been achieving by puttting his theories into practice. The no-carbs diet would appear to have significantly improved the performances of quite a number of them.

As usual, your baiting is so transparently obvious that it's not worth engaging with.

PaulieC · 09-12-2013 7:52pm

Of course the whole paleo thing is not really about no carbs. It's about reducing the % of carbs in the overall make up of the diet and getting those carbs from sources other than refined and processed grain products. I don't think anyone here is promoting a no carb diet.

TRR · 09-12-2013 8:09pm

Enduro wrote: »

The point I'm trying to get through is just because received wisdom says something, or everyone thinks something is true doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct, or that there isn't a better way. "The world is flat" is an good example of something that was obvious to everyone at one point. And when an alternative theory was postulated the full weight of orthodox establishment was brought to bear to defend the orthodfox theory. They were still wrong though. There is always huge resistance to any change to orthodoxy, or the thinking that something is right because that's the way it always has been. Questioning these assumptions is tends to be how major breakthroughs are discovered.

I'm not sure if this...

is trying to say that science should be ignored, or are you saying that general nutrional theory doesn't apply to athletes. Either sounds dubious, to say the least, to me, especially the former.

In general nutrition at the moment there is a lot of questioning of orthodoxy at the moment. There is a growing body of good science out there which discovering major health benifits for HFLC style diets. Tim Noakes himself is a well regarded scientist, and more importantly one who is prepared to question orthodoxy. Even more interesting are the results his athletes have been achieving by puttting his theories into practice. The no-carbs diet would appear to have significantly improved the performances of quite a number of them.

As usual, your baiting is so transparently obvious that it's not worth engaging with.

I can understand drquirkys frustration. This crap does my head in. Do not try and equate this to somebody questioning whether the world is flat or not. Pick up a generic text book and see how ATP is produced. Don't don't talk about new science and totally ignore the fundamentals of cell physiology. Maybe paleo works for you. But for the vast majority of people it won't.

theboyblunder · 09-12-2013 9:05pm

PaulieC wrote: »

Of course the whole paleo thing is not really about no carbs. It's about reducing the % of carbs in the overall make up of the diet and getting those carbs from sources other than refined and processed grain products..

First of all +1 to TRRs post. read about ATP, glycolysis, the krebs cycle and oxidative phosphorylation. Then decide.

recently ive had to start reading a lot about metabolism (wish I hadnt). What is being realised now, (and I mean right now, every month something new) is that metabolism infllences a whole range of processes, far more than was ever thought possible or likely.

for example, a glycolytic enzyme (involved in the metabolism of sugar) glyceraldehyde 3 phosphate dehydrogenase is involved in the direct regulation of t-cells. T cells are a key part of the immune system. So, metabolism and immune response are linked in a big way. anyone who wants a copy of the paper can pm me. Its also well known that when you get an infection, your immune system kick starts and t cells respond by multiplying rapidly to meet the challenge. What do they use as the power source for this? Glycolysis (sugar burning). My immune system is not something im keen to unbalance in any way.

I might be coming across as a know all, but there is some genuine concern here. Metabolism is ancient. They way you burn sugar is the way many bacteria burn sugar. The enzymes are very similar. Billions of years old, not a huge amount of changes in between. On that timescale the iceage is utterly irrelevant. Biochemists have only just started to realise how important a regulatory process metabolism might be, im sure they are going to find a lot more once they start looking more intensively. nutritionists and people like noakes wont know any of this stuff for years, they will have to wait until someone puts it all together, takes the science out of it and explains it to them.

in short, my worry is not that you lads are experimenting with things that you dont understand, its that you are experimenting with things that nobody understands.

RayCun · 10-12-2013 9:43am

Enduro wrote: »

"The world is flat" is an good example of something that was obvious to everyone at one point.

Pedantic point: educated people have known the world is round since classical Greek times.
Geocentrism would be a better example

antomagoo · 10-12-2013 9:49am

RayCun wrote: »

Pedantic point: educated people have known the world is round since classical Greek times.
Geocentrism would be a better example

Lack of chocolate cake taking its toll Ray

overpronator · 10-12-2013 11:42am

theboyblunder wrote: »

for example, a glycolytic enzyme (involved in the metabolism of sugar) glyceraldehyde 3 phosphate dehydrogenase is involved in the direct regulation of t-cells. T cells are a key part of the immune system. So, metabolism and immune response are linked in a big way. anyone who wants a copy of the paper can pm me. Its also well known that when you get an infection, your immune system kick starts and t cells respond by multiplying rapidly to meet the challenge. What do they use as the power source for this? Glycolysis (sugar burning). My immune system is not something im keen to unbalance in any way.

+1 on this. I was at a conference in Liverpool last week and this is the hot topic in terms of immune regulation these days.

sconhome · 10-12-2013 4:14pm

And then there is a heap of paper on why low carb / high fat is better for the body than a carb based diet.

http://authoritynutrition.com/randomized-controlled-trials-in-nutrition/

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.full

I find a low carb, high protein diet suits me much better than the 'normal' diet I was brought up on. This has a lot to do with reducing the vast majority of processed foods from my diet too. But I'm not at the pointy end of any sport, so viewpoint is very personal.

TRR · 10-12-2013 4:24pm

AKW wrote: »

And then there is a heap of paper on why low carb / high fat is better for the body than a carb based diet.

http://authoritynutrition.com/randomized-controlled-trials-in-nutrition/

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.full

I find a low carb, high protein diet suits me much better than the 'normal' diet I was brought up on. This has a lot to do with reducing the vast majority of processed foods from my diet too. But I'm not at the pointy end of any sport, so viewpoint is very personal.

I may be wrong and open to correction as I haven't looked at all of the papers listed there but the titles of the majority seem to be studies targeting overweight / diabetic or obese individuals who are trying to lose weight. Not healthy individuals who want to perform at their optimum athletic potential.

RacoonQueen · 10-12-2013 4:39pm

Just for an example of one endurance athlete who competes at a high level on a diet similar to this - Eimear Mullan works (or has worked) with Barry Murray so presumably would have been on a HFLC diet of some sort.
Most of these guys don't talk about very low carb/no carb there is PLENTY of veg and fruit in their regimes. All they really do is promote fat and protein a lot more than other 'diets' and don't promote sugar/processed foods of any kind. Nutrient timing being the buzzwords...the right time to eat carbs being after your sessions for example.

http://www.mac-nutrition.com/testimonials/sport-testimonials/
http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/testimonials/
http://guruperformance.com/?page_id=899

I don't think what is being promoted by guys like these is all too different to what the rest of us know to be healthy, they just embrace fats and don't go for low fat sugary garbage.

PaulieC · 10-12-2013 4:43pm

TRR wrote: »

I may be wrong and open to correction as I haven't looked at all of the papers listed there but the titles of the majority seem to be studies targeting overweight / diabetic or obese individuals who are trying to lose weight. Not healthy individuals who want to perform at their optimum athletic potential.

And I'm putting myself up to be shot down, but the OP didn't mention weight, disease or performance. It merely asked has anyone tried it and how did they get on (or something to that affect) * . It wasn't until the question about high performance was asked that it turned into a bit of a he said/she said.

* yes, I am fully aware that it was posted in the A/R forum and thus was bound to have that slant.

sconhome · 10-12-2013 6:24pm

TRR wrote: »

I may be wrong and open to correction as I haven't looked at all of the papers listed there but the titles of the majority seem to be studies targeting overweight / diabetic or obese individuals who are trying to lose weight. Not healthy individuals who want to perform at their optimum athletic potential.

Valid points. I'm guessing such research is probably funded better when it starts from a health risk category.

I suppose it depends on what the individuals optimum potential is likely to be. Enduro has found a way to maximise his potential using his high fat / low carb diet as fueling for long endurance events. This is obviously not going to work in the case of power athletes like sprinters or middle distances.

I know from my own purposes that training or racing intensities have a lot to do with the demands on fueling and as I'm mostly doing or training for 5-6 hour triathlon events these are at a much lower sustained intensity than that of a 1-2 hour 'sprint' event.

Most of my race day fuelling is protein and slow release carbs with high carb gels or cola in the final stages of the run.

Tim Noakes on Carbohydrates

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