Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

rafared · 06-12-2013 08:36PM

amacca wrote: »

The only choice I can see with that kind of overloading going on is to cut back on all the voluntary stuff etc if you are in a position to at all

Most of the voluntary stuff I do is usually helping out kids with specific problems with project or course work. Im a practical teacher with 3 exam classes doing project work this year and as always they ask for extra time when they see me or after school which I usually do simply because I care about their education. I have a DCG project with a lot of very good kids in it and I will give them an hour and a half after school next week because the deadline is looming. I'm talking about kids who are stressed about finishing on time, big point hunters and dedicated students who I have known for 5-6 years now. In other words I want to help so that they do really really well.

teacherhead wrote: »

how many hours have you done since September?

I haven't been in the scheme since Sept, only in since it was enforced on us 5 weeks ago. I have done 12 Classes and 5 fifteen min preschool supervision in that time.

tosh999 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you are obliged to do a max of 3 classes a week. 2 hours substitution and 1 hour supervision means you'll have your 43 hours done in circa 15 weeks.

As far as I am aware its a max of 3 hours a week not three classes. By the time we were forced to sign up there was no Supervision slots left available so most were forced to give 5 free classes instead.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I agree that it's crap having to do that many classes and you're not at the end of the week yet, but surely management should have made the decision to cancel some of the matches going on and rearrange them for another date rather than need cover for 16 people?

You would think so but if they have the cover available they are going to use them it seems. We have 5 yes 5 potential substitutes in EVERY class slot BAR the last on a Thursday and Friday. Honestly Management don't care as long as they have somebody-anybody in front of the class. In 12 years in my present school I have never known anybody in management to take a class even as a last resort. They see themselves as "out of the classroom". That's the main reason most go for the jobs.......to get out of having the stress of the daily grind of teaching.

gaeilgebeo · 06-12-2013 09:08PM

rafared wrote: »

As far as I am aware its a max of 3 hours a week not three classes. By the time we were forced to sign up there was no Supervision slots left available so most were forced to give 5 free classes instead.

You are correct.
So you can be asked to cover 4 periods a week and a lunchtime.
1 X 40 mins
4 X 35 mins.

Do that for the remainder of your career and see how burned out you are!
I am in a TUI school, where the majority of us are subbing 3 periods per week.

Matthew712 · 06-12-2013 09:27PM

endakenny wrote: »

Is there any chance of setting up a new secondary teachers' union to continue industrial action if HRA is passed?

I propose it should take the form of an Association of Classroom Teachers right across the secondary sector excluding DP's and Principal. Teachers initially may stay in ASTI, TUI as the new association will not have negotiating rights until its membership grows. I will consider it soon as many of my colleagues are afraid to speak at our union meetings because the principal and DP attend and the atmosphere is very intimidating. A new association is needs to get ASTI and TUI leaders to take notice.

rafared · 06-12-2013 09:29PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

You are correct.
So you can be asked to cover 4 periods a week and a lunchtime.
1 X 40 mins
4 X 35 mins.

Do that for the remainder of your career and see how burned out you are!
I am in a TUI school, where the majority of us are subbing 3 periods per week.

That's the reality of it and it will only ever be revised upwards. Expect the 43 to become 46 to become 49 over the next 3-6 years.

acequion · 06-12-2013 09:29PM

km79 wrote: »

How is the voting going in the various schools? We have a large staff of approx 100. vast majority are voting no (90%) and over half have already cast their votes via the postbox set up in staff room by our steward. I'd like to think this voting pattern is reflected in most schools but I fear not.
Anyone else want to give a rough idea of result in their school ?

My school has also about 100 teachers and while it's definitely a majority no, it wouldn't be anywhere near as high as 90%, more like 60-70%. Against that though,my branch meeting this week was extremely depressing,with a vocal yes majority in attendance. So I'd predict that overall the yes will win in my branch,maybe 60-40. However I'm in a conservative, pro establishment part of the country,as can be seen in referendum results.

I think it's really important to get predictions from people, as we need to be prepared for the result, if only psychologically, so everyone, do please give us some indication of how things are looking wherever you happen to be.Thanks.:)

spurious · 06-12-2013 09:53PM

rafared wrote: »

In 12 years in my present school I have never known anybody in management to take a class even as a last resort. They see themselves as "out of the classroom". That's the main reason most go for the jobs.......to get out of having the stress of the daily grind of teaching.

I'm not sure that's fair across the board. I was involved in totting the hours done by staff so far in our place this week and our Principal and Deputy Principal are well up there in terms of hours done.

I would echo the stories from other TUI schools out there. People are being run ragged with these extra hours. It can't last without having a very negative effect.

endakenny · 06-12-2013 09:53PM

Matthew712 wrote: »

I propose it should take the form of an Association of Classroom Teachers right across the secondary sector excluding DP's and Principal. Teachers initially may stay in ASTI, TUI as the new association will not have negotiating rights until its membership grows. I will consider it soon as many of my colleagues are afraid to speak at our union meetings because the principal and DP attend and the atmosphere is very intimidating. A new association is needs to get ASTI and TUI leaders to take notice.

I have come across a lot of negativity about principals and deputy principals on this forum. They didn't dump the paperwork and the CPA/HRA hours on teachers. The Department did. There's nothing that the principals and deputy principals can do about that.

rafared wrote: »

In 12 years in my present school I have never known anybody in management to take a class even as a last resort. They see themselves as "out of the classroom". That's the main reason most go for the jobs.......to get out of having the stress of the daily grind of teaching.

There's nothing wrong with wanting promotion. It happens in every profession. Secondary principals cannot teach because they have to do the admin work that is known as "running the school", i.e. communicating with parents and the board of management, organising the Junior and Leaving Cert exams etc.

acequion · 06-12-2013 10:02PM

rafared wrote: »

Most of the voluntary stuff I do is usually helping out kids with specific problems with project or course work. Im a practical teacher with 3 exam classes doing project work this year and as always they ask for extra time when they see me or after school which I usually do simply because I care about their education. I have a DCG project with a lot of very good kids in it and I will give them an hour and a half after school next week because the deadline is looming. I'm talking about kids who are stressed about finishing on time, big point hunters and dedicated students who I have known for 5-6 years now. In other words I want to help so that they do really really well.

I really think that,for our own sakes we must cut back on or cut out the free stuff. We've all done it and still do it in many cases BUT:

There is no value placed on anything that's free. Look at how much has been paid and is still paid for grinds. In an ideal society it wouldn't be like that but by god,we've gone very far from an ideal society.
While it's the last thing we intend,by giving free tuition and in addition free and voluntary extra curriculars, we're inadvertently putting pressure on our collegues to do likewise.

Let's concentrate on what we're paid to do and no more. We may actually get some appreciation then.

acequion · 06-12-2013 10:17PM

endakenny wrote: »

I have come across a lot of negativity about principals and deputy principals on this forum. They didn't dump the paperwork and the CPA/HRA hours on teachers. The Department did. There's nothing that the principals and deputy principals can do about that.

There's nothing wrong with wanting promotion. It happens in every profession. Secondary principals cannot teach because they have to do the admin work that is known as "running the school", i.e. communicating with parents and the board of management, organising the Junior and Leaving Cert exams etc.

Agree. But I think a lot of teachers are starting to resent management as they won't be the ones carrying the lion's share of the enormous extra workload and also,it would seem that many of them are yes voters to HRA. I say "many" because there are indeed many others whose hearts are with classroom teachers, and that solidarity is very much appreciated.

Also,DP's and P's went after the promotions and more luck to them. Many classroom teachers did not, for their own good reasons,so it's no wonder that they're outraged at being expected to take on a much greater workload for the same and less pay. I, personally, twice turned down the offer of a B post when my turn came up on the seniority list. I'm all about quality, in life and in work, not quantity,so I massively resent all the extras that are being heaped on me now and will protest and resist all the way.

seavill · 06-12-2013 10:19PM

acequion wrote: »

I really think that,for our own sakes we must cut back on or cut out the free stuff. We've all done it and still do it in many cases BUT:
There is no value placed on anything that's free. Look at how much has been paid and is still paid for grinds. In an ideal society it wouldn't be like that but by god,we've gone very far from an ideal society.

While it's the last thing we intend,by giving free tuition and in addition free and voluntary extra curriculars, we're inadvertently putting pressure on our collegues to do likewise.

Let's concentrate on what we're paid to do and no more. We may actually get some appreciation then.

Yes in theory thats all well and good, but in reality thats not always possible particularly with practical classes. Me staying back with my DCG class has no effect on anyone else, in fact there is currently only 1 teacher that knows I do, because she saw me when she was leaving after school study.

Regardless of what anyone says or whatever cuts are made I will always do the best I can for my students if that involves staying back a few evenings and I have the time I will do it regardless of pay, conditions etc.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world but I can't agree with what you have posted

ytareh · 06-12-2013 10:31PM

spurious wrote: »

I would echo the stories from other TUI schools out there. People are being run ragged with these extra hours. It can't last without having a very negative effect.

And of course our sick pay has been halved ,I and many teachers have been forced to cancel our health insurance and the public health care system is in a shambles .Do you think if Enda Kenny or Ruairi Quinn have a stroke they will be left lying on a trolley in a corridor for hours ?Time to show this shower that if the rest of the public service are prepared to kowtow to them , we arent !!!Vote No!

acequion · 06-12-2013 10:40PM

seavill wrote: »

Yes in theory thats all well and good, but in reality thats not always possible particularly with practical classes. Me staying back with my DCG class has no effect on anyone else, in fact there is currently only 1 teacher that knows I do, because she saw me when she was leaving after school study.

Regardless of what anyone says or whatever cuts are made I will always do the best I can for my students if that involves staying back a few evenings and I have the time I will do it regardless of pay, conditions etc.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world but I can't agree with what you have posted

That's fair enough,seavill,each to his own. But everyone likes and indeed is entitled to appreciation. And like many things in life, that which is freely given,is not valued. And most unfortunately, so it is with extra from teachers at the moment. While your extra input may not impact on anyone else,that's no longer the case in many other subjects,where individual initiatives are increasingly curtailed as we're all standardised. In any case there's not much point in clamouring about being overworked when we're willing overworking ourselves.

born2bwild · 06-12-2013 10:43PM

spurious wrote: »

I'm not sure that's fair across the board. I was involved in totting the hours done by staff so far in our place this week and our Principal and Deputy Principal are well up there in terms of hours done.

I would echo the stories from other TUI schools out there. People are being run ragged with these extra hours. It can't last without having a very negative effect.

In fairness, my Deputy P took her S&S last period Friday instead of me...

But still, working for nothing is a pain in the fyking hole

tayto lover · 06-12-2013 10:46PM

From speaking with your fellow teachers how do you think the vote will go?

implausible · 06-12-2013 11:03PM

rafared wrote: »

As far as I am aware its a max of 3 hours a week not three classes. By the time we were forced to sign up there was no Supervision slots left available so most were forced to give 5 free classes instead.

That's shocking. Reading this makes me appreciate where I am. The s/s rota was redone after HRA was accepted and supervision sorted out first. Then we volunteered our slots.

Someone asked earlier about the situation in TUI schools and in mine, to be honest, nobody mentions it in the staffroom and people are just getting on with it. I have noticed only a small increase in substitution (I always get caught on a Friday now) though management have tightened up a lot on you taking a class if your class is away. Paid subs cover the certified sick and inservice leave. People who haven't done it in the past do get called more often, but no major complaints.

losullivan · 06-12-2013 11:20PM

My school of 55 teachers is a large majority NO vote. We have lots of staff with 20+ years left who have had enough.Staff are well informed as we have regular union meetings during lunch breaks. The latest antics by Quinn have made us more determined than ever to get the NO vote in.

endakenny · 06-12-2013 11:21PM

acequion wrote: »

Agree. But I think a lot of teachers are starting to resent management as they won't be the ones carrying the lion's share of the enormous extra workload and also,it would seem that many of them are yes voters to HRA. I say "many" because there are indeed many others whose hearts are with classroom teachers, and that solidarity is very much appreciated.

The principals and deputy principals constitute a minority of the ASTI membership.

Furthermore, some ASTI members are letting their colleagues down by being too lazy to vote in ballots. I'm sure that you're aware that, in recent years, the turnouts for ASTI ballots have been abysmal.

gaeilgebeo · 06-12-2013 11:22PM

implausible wrote: »

Paid subs cover the certified sick and inservice leave..

You are very lucky to be in the school you are in.
Under HRA, SnS must cover the first day of certified sick leave and bereavement leave.

Boober Fraggle · 06-12-2013 11:33PM

tayto lover wrote: »

From speaking with your fellow teachers how do you think the vote will go?

Our school is sounding very yes

I've heard 'if tui were no I'd vote no', 'I can't afford to strike', 'sure we'll have to do s&s for nothing anyway, might aswell vote yes' and 'the public are against us, we will get no support'. I know some staff have the opt out of s&s option and are voting yes because they want out of it now.

They seem to think I'm spoiling for a fight by hoping for a no vote.

Depressing stuff.

implausible · 06-12-2013 11:52PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

You are very lucky to be in the school you are in.
Under HRA, SnS must cover the first day of certified sick leave and bereavement leave.

Apologies, obviously not the first day of certified sick leave. Because there are more staff now doing it, it seems to cancel out the extra categories of leave covered by s/s.

It seemed to me that in our VEC, we followed the s/s rules to the letter and it was only ever used to cover what it was supposed to. Colleagues in other schools told me of subs being paid to cover uncertified leave and teachers away with teams etc. Anecdotal I know, but so is the idea that the s/s element of HRA has been horrendous for TUI schools. At the most recent branch meetings I've attended, there have been no issues raised about s/s.

2 other points of information from a TUI meeting I attended, which may give the lie to some myths surrounding HRA - it was passed at both 2nd and 3rd level by TUI and 300 applications to join were received on one Friday by Head Office.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a Yes, I'm merely giving my experience of how the s/s element has turned out for my colleagues in my school. I hope that the ASTI action produces some results in relation to the new Junior Cert, because after attending a joke of an inservice in English, I am raging about the disorganisation, incompetence and the downright sneakiness of its implementation ("sure teach away in September, we might tell you how it'll be assessed before Christmas")

losullivan · 06-12-2013 11:56PM

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

Our school is sounding very yes I've heard 'if tui were no I'd vote no', 'I can't afford to strike', 'sure we'll have to do s&s for nothing anyway, might aswell vote yes' and 'the public are against us, we will get no support'. I know some staff have the opt out of s&s option and are voting yes because they want out of it now.

They seem to think I'm spoiling for a fight by hoping for a no vote.

Depressing stuff.

This level of defeatism mush be very difficult to put up with. Do you have any union reps in your school? Our guys have downloaded and distributed some of the very informative documents posted by ASTI Fightback on their website.Our leadership are not pushing hard enough for a NO vote so it's down to grassroot members to do it.

acequion · 07-12-2013 12:09AM

implausible wrote: »

Apologies, obviously not the first day of certified sick leave. Because there are more staff now doing it, it seems to cancel out the extra categories of leave covered by s/s.

It seemed to me that in our VEC, we followed the s/s rules to the letter and it was only ever used to cover what it was supposed to. Colleagues in other schools told me of subs being paid to cover uncertified leave and teachers away with teams etc. Anecdotal I know, but so is the idea that the s/s element of HRA has been horrendous for TUI schools. At the most recent branch meetings I've attended, there have been no issues raised about s/s.

2 other points of information from a TUI meeting I attended, which may give the lie to some myths surrounding HRA - it was passed at both 2nd and 3rd level by TUI and 300 applications to join were received on one Friday by Head Office.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a Yes, I'm merely giving my experience of how the s/s element has turned out for my colleagues in my school. I hope that the ASTI action produces some results in relation to the new Junior Cert, because after attending a joke of an inservice in English, I am raging about the disorganisation, incompetence and the downright sneakiness of its implementation ("sure teach away in September, we might tell you how it'll be assessed before Christmas")

Thanks for the feedback,implausible. Obviously the HRA is being experienced differently in different schools,though I'm really astounded that no issues were raised about S&S at a branch meeting. That teachers on full hours would suddenly have to give up five free periods, plus be available for yard duty,having perhaps never done any of that before, and for that not to be an issue at a branch meeting, is amazing,to say the least.

I'm also a bit sceptical about what I've emboldened in your post. Passed at both 2nd and 3rd level,says who? Have the TUI actually published the figures and made them widely available? Because,if not,I'd take that information with a pinch of salt [though I'm not questioning your sincerity in posting this].

I'm really glad that we're still outside this madness,though for however longer, no one knows. No, all the way,folks!

implausible · 07-12-2013 12:38AM

acequion wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback,implausible. Obviously the HRA is being experienced differently in different schools,though I'm really astounded that no issues were raised about S&S at a branch meeting. That teachers on full hours would suddenly have to give up five free periods, plus be available for yard duty,having perhaps never done any of that before, and for that not to be an issue at a branch meeting, is amazing,to say the least.

I'm also a bit sceptical about what I've emboldened in your post. Passed at both 2nd and 3rd level,says who? Have the TUI actually published the figures and made them widely available? Because,if not,I'd take that information with a pinch of salt [though I'm not questioning your sincerity in posting this].

I'm really glad that we're still outside this madness,though for however longer, no one knows. No, all the way,folks!

But we always had to offer up a certain amount of free periods and do supervision, so people just accepted offering a few more. Those who didn't do s/s knew that the price of keeping their increments was doing it and seem to have just got on with it. There was plenty of talk beforehand, but once it passed, there were a few questions about the logistics and then nothing.

John MacGabhann (Gen Sec) told us at our AGM that the only info he looked for from the auditors was if it was passed at both levels (couldn't ask for individual branches as it would identify people and schools)

The people who go to meetings like myself and people who post on here tend to have strong views and be what the media label as 'militant', but the truth is, like it or not, that the majority of teachers just want to 'get on with it' and worry about the next pay cheque. I'm afraid that we are not representative.

This will come back to bite us in the ass if the new JC goes through. People only care when it directly affects them strongly and negatively. If the Dept get the English teachers in board, it'll be too late by the time the rest of the teachers realise what is happening.

acequion · 07-12-2013 01:09AM

implausible wrote: »

But we always had to offer up a certain amount of free periods and do supervision, so people just accepted offering a few more. Those who didn't do s/s knew that the price of keeping their increments was doing it and seem to have just got on with it. There was plenty of talk beforehand, but once it passed, there were a few questions about the logistics and then nothing.

John MacGabhann (Gen Sec) told us at our AGM that the only info he looked for from the auditors was if it was passed at both levels (couldn't ask for individual branches as it would identify people and schools)

The people who go to meetings like myself and people who post on here tend to have strong views and be what the media label as 'militant', but the truth is, like it or not, that the majority of teachers just want to 'get on with it' and worry about the next pay cheque. I'm afraid that we are not representative.

This will come back to bite us in the ass if the new JC goes through. People only care when it directly affects them strongly and negatively. If the Dept get the English teachers in board, it'll be too late by the time the rest of the teachers realise what is happening.

I'm still sceptical. Maybe some teachers equated S&S with keeping their increments,but that those who never did it are just "getting on with it" is hard to believe. It may be a case of suffering in silence, as no increment is worth those draconian extra workloads. When you say a majority of teachers,at the moment you speak for TUI teachers only, who constitute a minority of second level teachers.

Re the vote breakdown,what John MacGabhann told the AGM, I'd still take with a pinch of salt. MacGabhann,like many other GS's,including our own,clearly wanted you all in HR,so Id believe nothing from him unless irrefutable evidence was produced.

I also hope they don't get all the English teachers on board for this joke of a "reformed" JC. I'm an English teacher and I assure you that I'm very much off board.

Maybe a lot of people have a "get on with it" mentality. Maybe that apathy is a national malaise,but there are still many who fight against it.

teacherhead · 07-12-2013 01:31AM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

You are very lucky to be in the school you are in.
Under HRA, SnS must cover the first day of certified sick leave and bereavement leave.

No it's the first day of force majeure and illness on family leave. All uncertified leave.

i think an earlier version had the first day of certified leave too!

Kalimera · 07-12-2013 09:24AM

teacherhead wrote: »

No it's the first day of uncertified leave

All self certified leave, school business and first day of force majeure is to covered by S&S under HRA. All certified leave can be covered by paying subs.
If a larger number of staff are on the rota in our school it would be likely that people will be called less than previously. Last year no one reached 37 hours and that was with two thirds of staff involved.

ethical · 07-12-2013 10:48AM

Incompetent management at school level is causing distress to some staff members being 'caught all the time for classes',the old nod and wink is still very much to the fore in this Banana Republic of ours and its not going to change anytime soon,we are rotten to the core from the top down.You can have all your policies and paperwork in place,play every charade you want but at the end of the day the 'old back- hander,envelope under the table etc 'always wins in Good Ol'Ireland. Why don't the Dept come straight out with a 'package' that will let those that want to leave get out now.................or are they hoping that the income protection people will pay for everyone in a couple of years time when illness/stress levels soar,watch terms and conditions of same schemes change in the very near future! We are left hung out to dry again by the large sporting organisations,IRFU,GAA,FAI,not one word of support from either considering all the time given voluntarily by teachers (at considerable cost to themselves and their families) in preparing the athletes of tomorrow.

ophelia75 · 07-12-2013 11:49AM

Headline in indo rag this morning."Schools shut,power out.Unions dig in."Threat from Dept that all 17,000 ASTI teachers'pay will be stopped after Jan 17th if the vote is no.
Bullying tactics

gammy_knees · 07-12-2013 02:41PM

ophelia75 wrote: »

Headline in indo rag this morning."Schools shut,power out.Unions dig in."Threat from Dept that all 17,000 ASTI teachers'pay will be stopped after Jan 17th if the vote is no.
Bullying tactics

The govt. will bully ASTI and not ESB unions as they have considerably more power(excuse pun) at their disposal. And the govt. would also see putting teachers and their union back in their box as quite populist. If the ESB union do get their desired outcome will the govt. appreciate being faced down/defeated by another union in Jan? I suppose the question now is who will blink first on Dec 18th?

amacca · 07-12-2013 03:20PM

ophelia75 wrote: »

Headline in indo rag this morning."Schools shut,power out.Unions dig in."Threat from Dept that all 17,000 ASTI teachers'pay will be stopped after Jan 17th if the vote is no.
Bullying tactics

Thats another reason why its a big fat No from me. I learned how to deal with bullies after they made my life a misery early on. Theres only one way and thats stand and fight.....the thing about most bullies is they are usually cowards when its put up to them.

I hope they don't win at those tactics.

Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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