Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

Delphi91 · 05-12-2013 10:59PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

...teachers who are free at a time when a class needs to be covered like rafared have to provide S&S for teacher absent due to illness etc.

Surely only if they are rostered to provide S&S at that time.

fall · 05-12-2013 11:02PM

Uncertified sick leave. Please remember most sick leave is certified. This is not covered by s and s.

Delphi91 · 05-12-2013 11:06PM

fall wrote: »

Uncertified sick leave. Please remember most sick leave is certified. This is not covered by s and s.

Yes, that is what I was curious about also....

By far, the vast amount of illness that I have to provide cover for is certified. Which is why I'm curious about people being asked to do so much substitution. I have over 40 teachers and so far this week, I've provided substitution under the S&S scheme twice. That's by no means untypical.

fall · 05-12-2013 11:18PM

Seven days uncertified rolling over two years now. Please refuse to cover anything not covered under Haddington road.

http://www.education.ie/en/Public-Service-Stability-Agreement/FAQs.html#q22
FAQs from department of education website. States what s and s covers.

teacherhead · 05-12-2013 11:21PM

Delphi91 wrote: »

S&S used to cover for matches and basketball??? Is that allowed???

how else do you cover for absences like that? You can't use a paid sub....?

Matthew712 · 05-12-2013 11:28PM

If vote is yes - only 30% of teachers have opt out. no pay for S&S done this year, 33+ cp hours to do and lots more crap from incompetent senior management & DES.
If vote is no and Fempi cuts everyone by 1769 unless they opt in - then 100% of asti teachers have opt out, paid for S&S done this year + no croke park hours + no cooperation with new JC. Bring it on.....

teacherhead · 05-12-2013 11:31PM

tosh999 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you are obliged to do a max of 3 classes a week. 2 hours substitution and 1 hour supervision means you'll have your 43 hours done in circa 15 weeks.

its up to five class periods and a weekly max of 3 hours. That could be all sub or all supervision in theory.

Icsics · 05-12-2013 11:33PM

Hear Hear Matthew 712....more Brendan Ogle style tactics required here!

newholland · 05-12-2013 11:34PM

Matthew712 wrote: »

If vote is yes - only 30% of teachers have opt out. no pay for S&S done this year, 33+ cp hours to do and lots more crap from incompetent senior management & DES.
If vote is no and Fempi cuts everyone by 1769 unless they opt in - then 100% of asti teachers have opt out, paid for S&S done this year + no croke park hours + no cooperation with new JC. Bring it on.....

Amazing how you quote management as incompetent and you as a teacher are suggesting you are killed out and not going to do any more. What skills do you have that a school manager does not. Is it a case you applied for a few management jobs and did not get them?

Delphi91 · 05-12-2013 11:40PM

teacherhead wrote: »

how else do you cover for absences like that? You can't use a paid sub....?

Of course you can, if you have the resources to pay for them. This is one of the reasons why there was always an extra allowance given to schools to allow for paid substitution for teachers who were away on school business, etc.

The allowance was a pittance - based on the number of students you had - in my case it amounted to 90 hours over the year.

You can make up hours in situations where you have a teacher out on certified leave but you are unable (or don't need to) provide cover. Say your HSCL is out on certified leave - you are entitled to claim back for the hours that he/she misses on each day of leave. You wouldn't be putting anyone in to cover for them, so you get to "bank" those hours to use at a later date e.g. to get a paid sub to cover for a teacher away with a team.

acequion · 05-12-2013 11:42PM

newholland wrote: »

Amazing how you quote management as incompetent and you as a teacher are suggesting you are killed out and not going to do any more. What skills do you have that a school manager does not. Is it a case you applied for a few management jobs and did not get them?

You're becoming a bore newholland! Sulking are we that nobody took the bait of yet another public versus private slagging match that you were baying for earlier? So now you go and pick holes in a poster's comment, hoping no doubt to get a reaction.

There are plenty of other threads full of people like you so why don't you go and get yourself a nice little fight on one of them.

Delphi91 · 05-12-2013 11:45PM

teacherhead wrote: »

its up to five class periods and a weekly max of 3 hours. That could be all sub or all supervision in theory.

No it can't.

The original maximum S&S per week was 1.5 hours. It has now been increased to 3 hours with the specific stipulation that the extra 1.5 hours can only be used for substitution.

newholland · 05-12-2013 11:50PM

acequion wrote: »

You're becoming a bore newholland! Sulking are we that nobody took the bait of yet another public versus private slagging match that you were baying for earlier? So now you go and pick holes in a poster's comment, hoping no doubt to get a reaction.

There are plenty of other threads full of people like you so why don't you go and get yourself a nice little fight on one of them.

Never looked for public v private debate. Where did I do that? It seems fine on this forum to slag off management and anybody who questions the sense in voting no again. Even your own leadership have thrown in the towel. I am not hoping to get a reaction merly questioning why management were described as incompetent?

Matthew712 · 06-12-2013 12:02AM

newholland wrote: »

Amazing how you quote management as incompetent and you as a teacher are suggesting you are killed out and not going to do any more. What skills do you have that a school manager does not. Is it a case you applied for a few management jobs and did not get them?

Current senior management - grossly incompetent - Majority of staff would agree, probably same for parents and students. Where the "killed out" notion comes from I'm at a loss. Only a couple of skills - interpersonal skills, emotional intelligence, ability to plan etc.

seavill · 06-12-2013 12:08AM

I think it was said previously that those that were not receiving payment on a pensionable basis for S&S last year can opt out.

How do you know if you were getting paid with the pension or not?

Matthew712 · 06-12-2013 12:14AM

seavill wrote: »

I think it was said previously that those that were not receiving payment on a pensionable basis for S&S last year can opt out.

How do you know if you were getting paid with the pension or not?

If you where in S&S, left it for a year, and rejoined you are no longer pensionable. According to a CEC member, it should appear on your salary slip as S&S - pensionable or S&S - non pensionable

seavill · 06-12-2013 12:26AM

So I started teaching in 2007 and have done s&s every year since so I have no way of opting out. Apologies for asking what may seem a stupid question but I've asked a few people locally but could never get a definite answer

doc_17 · 06-12-2013 12:46AM

No opt out for you as you did it in 2012/2013

Matthew712 · 06-12-2013 12:49AM

seavill wrote: »

So I started teaching in 2007 and have done s&s every year since so I have no way of opting out. Apologies for asking what may seem a stupid question but I've asked a few people locally but could never get a definite answer

If you are in HRA - For you, No way out
If you are not in HRA and the vote is yes - For you, No way out
If you are not in HRA and the vote is no - Everyone currently outside HRA has the opt out. Fempi may make it compulsory to do the work, but this is unlikey. More likely Fempi may cut pay off all outside HRA by 1769, and make people sign in to avoid cut.
Ouside HRA, there is no obligation to sign in or out.

seavill · 06-12-2013 12:57AM

doc_17 wrote: »

No opt out for you as you did it in 2012/2013

Matthew712 wrote: »

If you are in HRA - For you, No way out
If you are not in HRA and the vote is yes - For you, No way out
If you are not in HRA and the vote is no - Everyone currently outside HRA has the opt out. Fempi may make it compulsory to do the work, but this is unlikey. More likely Fempi may cut pay off all outside HRA by 1769, and make people sign in to avoid cut.
Ouside HRA, there is no obligation to sign in or out.

Am I reading this wrong or do your posts conflict.

Doc says no opt out. Your post says if we vote no everyone can opt out which I didn't think was the case

rainbowtrout · 06-12-2013 01:09AM

seavill wrote: »

Am I reading this wrong or do your posts conflict.

Doc says no opt out. Your post says if we vote no everyone can opt out which I didn't think was the case

I think it's if you are in HRA, but didn't do S&S in 12/13 school year you have the option of baling out and taking the cut of 1769. If you did S&S in 12/13 and are in HRA, you have to do it.

Matthew712 · 06-12-2013 01:16AM

seavill wrote: »

Am I reading this wrong or do your posts conflict.

Doc says no opt out. Your post says if we vote no everyone can opt out which I didn't think was the case

The opt in/out clause is an amendment to HRA. Those outside HRA are either
voluntarily in S&S or have opted out. If the vote is no - the opt in/out clause does not apply. It is still voluntarily to do it or not. Fempi may change this and make it compulsory, but if you refuse to do it - how will the DES know. There will be no legal reason why someone should have to opt out of something they where never in.

teacherhead · 06-12-2013 08:17AM

Delphi91 wrote: »

Of course you can, if you have the resources to pay for them. This is one of the reasons why there was always an extra allowance given to schools to allow for paid substitution for teachers who were away on school business, etc.

The allowance was a pittance - based on the number of students you had - in my case it amounted to 90 hours over the year.

You can make up hours in situations where you have a teacher out on certified leave but you are unable (or don't need to) provide cover. Say your HSCL is out on certified leave - you are entitled to claim back for the hours that he/she misses on each day of leave. You wouldn't be putting anyone in to cover for them, so you get to "bank" those hours to use at a later date e.g. to get a paid sub to cover for a teacher away with a team.

sorry, my point was that you cant just get a paid sub because you want to. If you have no hours left from leave you have to use s&s that's the way we are. Sub in ( a teacher on less than full hours) every time someone has a cert or is on in service.

solerina · 06-12-2013 02:59PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

I though you had to sign up to be available for 5 classes but the max that you could actually do was 3...so you shouldn't be called on no matter what as you have already done your 3

km79 · 06-12-2013 07:41PM

How is the voting going in the various schools? We have a large staff of approx 100. vast majority are voting no (90%) and over half have already cast their votes via the postbox set up in staff room by our steward. I'd like to think this voting pattern is reflected in most schools but I fear not.
Anyone else want to give a rough idea of result in their school ?

newholland · 06-12-2013 08:03PM

Seems figures published by the DES today show that the non acceptance of hra by asti suits older members much
more than younger members who will be well cut in their wages. I wonder are older staff feathering their own nest in some cases? I am in the older category in a tui school.

Red Hare · 06-12-2013 08:05PM

Anyone hear the lastest Quinn assault on the ASTI ballot on the Radio news/ Here is the link to an article from RTE

Larkinsghost · 06-12-2013 08:22PM

newholland wrote: »

Seems figures published by the DES today show that the non acceptance of hra by asti suits older members much
more than younger members who will be well cut in their wages. I wonder are older staff feathering their own nest in some cases? I am in the older category in a tui school.

Well my increments are frozen for 3 years so pain is all over. Yes younger members get a higher pay scale if they bend knee on HR but its like sleeping with a hooker-you might feel great for awhile but eventually the disease will get you. The bully boy disease.
Job will be crap within five years. All the money in the world wont undo the mess the JC will be.
Your union leadership -your members on TUI CEC had no backbone so why are you still in the union are you? I will quit if this passes. Why bother being in a uniom

endakenny · 06-12-2013 08:26PM

newholland wrote: »

Seems figures published by the DES today show that the non acceptance of hra by asti suits older members much
more than younger members who will be well cut in their wages. I wonder are older staff feathering their own nest in some cases? I am in the older category in a tui school.

If many older ASTI members are voting No then it's because they oppose the new JC curriculum and the extra hours.

As for younger members, I'm sure they knew what was coming when they rejected HRA and, as teachers, they are well-educated people who would thus be too intelligent to take out exhorbitant mortgages.

endakenny · 06-12-2013 08:27PM

Larkinsghost wrote: »

Well my increments are frozen for 3 years so pain is all over. Yes younger members get a higher pay scale if they bend knee on HR but its like sleeping with a hooker-you might feel great for awhile but eventually the disease will get you. The bully boy disease.
Job will be crap within five years. All the money in the world wont undo the mess the JC will be.
Your union leadership -your members on TUI CEC had no backbone so why are you still in the union are you? I will quit if this passes. Why bother being in a uniom

Is there any chance of setting up a new secondary teachers' union to continue industrial action if HRA is passed?

Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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