Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

happywithlife · 04-12-2013 07:42PM

Like a poster a few pages back I've noticed a change in my staff room the last few days.
People are more vocal this time round and generally just talking about things a bit more openly
And more are saying Quinn's bullying tactics are swaying them more to the no side than ever before!

acequion · 04-12-2013 07:44PM

gammy_knees wrote: »

Sounds good doesn't it. Stand at the gate for a few days. The big knobs will then gather round, yank the iron out of the fire and it'll all be sorted.(paraphrasing Blackadder).
Well someone mentioned about their staff talking about a 3 day strike. What will that achieve? I'll tell you. A loss of 3 days pay and service with nothing gained, that's all. And so much for sending out a signal to govt. They're not going to budge on this.

Peter Flynt, point of info. How do you know management have ONE month to sort it out? Please post up the link to the relevant document. The DES will let it rumble on so as to get public opinion against the ASTI. One of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember the last industrial action in early 2000's and that's when there was a few bob around!!! And they have used FEMPI already, I know, I'm down money since July 1.

A question I've asked many a time here which no one has answered at all at al at all: Who here is really Vita Cortex tough and willing to stay on the picket line for the noble cause of teaching especially if you have (m)any financial commitments? A lot of "hold me back" going on here I suspect.
[Anyway, I do realise that any dissenting voices to a No vote are not welcome here and are usually labelled trolls, castigated, etc. Sorry to piss on that parade once again.]

I personally have no problem with what you call a "dissenting voice" provided it's done in the spirit of respect and not flung out in hostile fashion like a grenade. Also,I really don't see the point in in-fighting going on amongst teachers,that serves no purpose at all.

I'd like to comment on two of our points. Firstly the last strike in the early 2000's. That was considered a success because it led to paid S&S for the first time and no,it didn't drag on that long. There were a few all out strike days in addition to work to rule days which closed schools. People were brought in from outside to do the S&S so I guess that's what you mean by "rumble on",but the effect was rather minimal on teachers and their pupils. Far from the grand apocalypse that some people are now predicting,and remember, we were on our own then too.

Secondly I will answer your question and say that I would be willing to go out on strike and stay out,not necessarily for the noble cause of teaching though that certainly is a big part. But mainly because I deplore the way workers are now being treated in Ireland and I am seriously alarmed at what I see as a growing democracy deficit. I find it increasingly difficult to have any positive appetite for my job in such an environment of constant cuts and threatening demands, so I'm willing to down tools and say enough is enough. However I will be honest and admit that though I can ill afford a strike,it won't cripple me. But I completely understand the bind that some people find themselves in and respect their fear of an escalation on those grounds. But fear for the sake of fear is something I despise.

Hope I've answered some of your questions.

gammy_knees · 04-12-2013 08:14PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It's not really a question of being labelled a troll.

You're spreading deliberate misinformation on what you think MIGHT happen.

Naturally, of course, you're taking the worse case scenario to back up your YES campaign.

The ASTI vote is announced on 19 Dec. Payment for S&S stops on 17 January.

To all posters here - Pat King once told a meeting I attended that the ASTI will NOT BE GOING OUT ON STRIKE.

So gammy if you have any evidence to the contrary . . let's read it.

There are alternatives - Perhaps S&S could be done but with a non-cooperation with inspections.

Incorrect interpretation. I was responding to the idea of strike action as suggested by a poster in their staffroom. It wasn't me proposing/predicting a strike. The TUI have said the same, No strike action forecast. There is no evidence.
But then, there are only 2 certainties in life.......

newholland · 04-12-2013 10:18PM

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

Benicetomonty · 04-12-2013 10:28PM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

I'm an ASTI member. I voted no.

newholland · 04-12-2013 10:32PM

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I'm an ASTI member. I voted no.

I know you have a choice but the decision is made outcome will be the same

Inspector Coptoor · 04-12-2013 10:35PM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

Ridiculous opinion.
The fact you give it as an "honest" opinion means little

Will be putting x in the No box on sat when I go to the home address

newholland · 04-12-2013 10:37PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ridiculous opinion.
The fact you give it as an "honest" opinion means little

Will be putting x in the No box on sat when I go to the home address

Hope you turned it over to see closing date!!!

losullivan · 04-12-2013 10:40PM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn.

ASTI members have a choice,we do not live in a fascist state. Quinn is not a dictator 'holding all the cards'. He has had to resort to bully boy tactics because even he knows that there is no easy win here for the DES. Voting NO does not mean strike. We will continue to do the work we're being paid to do. Threats about emergency legislation have been doing the rounds for months now.Where is the political will to back it up? Why hasn't it already been enacted if it's so easy? Public opinion has no bearing on my NO vote.

gammy_knees · 04-12-2013 10:43PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ridiculous opinion.
The fact you give it as an "honest" opinion means little

Will be putting x in the No box on sat when I go to the home address

This is proof of a comment I made earlier about contributors to this site who support HRA, either called trolls or castigated. And I've been accused of not showing respect yadda,yadda. Wont descend to that level.
NewHolland, unfortunately I think your comment is true.

evolving_doors · 04-12-2013 10:46PM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

I think you might find that; even though a No vote might result in 'bad' outcomes for ASTI members, some No voters still see that principles are more important than acquiescence. In that sense ASTI members still DO have a choice.

As regards RQ holding all the cards..

newholland wrote: »

Ability to change contracts

- 'Ability' is an implied threat, you might find that there are a lot of ASTI teachers willing to test this out despite the threat.. Should we give in because we are being threatened? Would we instruct our students to do so?

newholland wrote: »

public opinion

That ship has long sailed, listen to any radio station or read any newspaper.. it pays to rabble rouse. If we give in now we are just giving in to misinformed opinions about teaching being a 'Handy Number'/Summer Holidays Rant/ Gilt Edged Pensions etc. Now more than ever is the time to stand up for your profession. We all know how this reform rubbish and measuring outcomes has turned out in the UK. Is it right that we should go down this path knowing full well where it will lead.

newholland wrote: »

.... having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance..

Fair point but then again ...just because your friend does something bad, do you do it too.. (How many times have we told our students to think for themselves and not follow the herd especially when they think they are in the wrong).

newholland wrote: »

I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

Fighting for scraps off the table will get us nowhere, besides, Eaten bread is soon forgotten when it comes to most Irish parents and their children's education. They will only care when their kids are in the school, once the kids have left then it's all anecdotes and reminiscing. I've tried talking to folk who have primary school kids about the new junior cert and HR and their eyes just glaze over.

newholland · 04-12-2013 10:53PM

In relation to all public sector pay I think one of the public sector unions should publish a table to show the level of private sector pay that would correspond to public ie

Public sector 40000 = x private sector

This would smash one myth for example an article published recently about all the teachers on over 100k take out pension levy and hra deduction what would the private sector salary be to get same take home...

Inspector Coptoor · 04-12-2013 10:58PM

gammy_knees wrote: »

This is proof of a comment I made earlier about contributors to this site who support HRA, either called trolls or castigated. And I've been accused of not showing respect yadda,yadda. Wont descend to that level.
NewHolland, unfortunately I think your comment is true.

An opinion was expressed that teachers have no choice.

Regardless of for or against HRA, saying teachers have no choice IS a ridiculous opinion.

So you can wind your neck in on the "respect issue"

Rossdoc81 · 04-12-2013 11:02PM

People on here are running away with themselves talking about prolonged striking, loss of wages, the public being against us, and Ruari Quinn using FEMPI to sign us in to everything. This is the complete worst case scenario that has a very small chance of happening, and even if it does we are months away from this.

People seem to forget we are halfway through a school year and have ASTI members in 80% of schools - we are not helpless. Striking will be be hassle for us and loss of wages, but it is also serious hassle for parents who are left with kids at home, and the government who really don't want disruption of the educational system running towards exam time. It would be very stupid of the government to come out all guns blazing as they would be guaranteeing prolonged strikes, kids left at home, disruption to Education at a very important time of the year, and the end of any hopes for the new JC.

When we vote no the s+s situation that will develop will be a carbon copy of the one that happened in 2001. The government lost then. Do they really want to go down that road again?

We will vote no. They will play the hardman for a couple of weeks. We'll strike for a couple of days. Talks will open again. Concessions given and we'll vote again. The way these things always work.

I'd prefer to see a huge no vote. Concessions given and rejected out of hand. Some serious strike action with schools closed and widespread disruption. More concessions given and rejected. Then accceptance when a decent deal is finally offered. This would win us some respect for our profession back, and send a message to the government we can't be bullied or messed with. It would keep them away from us in future.

Or we can just vote yes now because what I've descibed above seems like alot of work and you'd rather do free s+s / Croke Park hours / JC work for the rest of your career.

"ASTI are the only union" - ASTI members have always been on their own when striking.This is nothing new.
"Public opinion is against us" - the public have always hated us.
"Quinn will use FEMPI" - If FEMPI is so amazing why is he doing everything in his power to bully us into Haddington Road. This FEMPI may not be as all powerful as many are making out.

acequion · 04-12-2013 11:05PM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

What a provocative remark! Sorry but we do have a choice and I'm choosing no as I've done twice already. Quinn might appear to "hold all the cards" but you seem to forget that he's an elected representative in a democratic state and I, for one, very much care about democracy.

As for public opinion, I'm bored with that one at this stage. There is no logical reason to hate a group of hard working professionals,yet according to our national gutter press,we're public enemy number one for all kinds of fictitious reasons which I don't give the time of day to. I'm too busy trying to provide an education and to defend the system which provides it. I also don't pander to the ignorant and the begrudgers.

gammy_knees wrote: »

This is proof of a comment I made earlier about contributors to this site who support HRA, either called trolls or castigated. And I've been accused of not showing respect yadda,yadda. Wont descend to that level.
NewHolland, unfortunately I think your comment is true.

You either have a persecution complex or are openly baying for a fight! I've read just about every post on this thread and I've seen nobody directly accuse you of being a troll. Likewise, my comment on the desirability of respect, in response to your post, was in no way an accusation,yet you openly make it one. Go and pick a fight somewhere else!

6am7f9zxrsjvnb · 04-12-2013 11:05PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

if you vote YES you'll be working during June within the next few years.

The plan is that a YES vote will see the abolition of the Junior Cert occurring without opposition. When this occurs teachers will be required to take on a month (June) of Continuous Professional Development under the Teaching Council . . . which is, of course, funded by teachers.

So add that to your 88 hours.

...and you accuse others of deliberately spreading misinformation on what they think MIGHT happen.

seavill · 04-12-2013 11:23PM

newholland wrote: »

Hope you turned it over to see closing date!!!

Closing date is the 18th plenty of time no hassle there

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

I have no problem with your opinion etc. I was having a similar discussion with a teacher today in my school, she will retire this year. Her opinion was that we have no choice and to choose what you want to stand for.

My opinion would be particularly on the bit highlighted above whether we accept or not he still has the same power either way.

Currently you are in HR, for now you may seem to be safe but you are still under FEMPI legislation that teh ASTI are constantly threatened with. If things turn in 6 months time or a years time again, he can still change your contract as he can still change mine. it is not one or the other it is both.

The point will be if we don't accept to do S&S for example he will make us do it either way, so why bother to accept it and just let him have is way if we will do it either way.

A very simple example which is such a silly situation to be in really is

If we accept HR we will not be paid for the S&S we have done up to Jan 17th, and we will have to do S&S for free etc. like TUI

If we reject HR we will be paid for the S&S up to the 17th Jan this year, and we will still be made do S&S for free like TUI

the difference being rejecting will give the same outcome but we will get paid

We will have an increment freeze for 3 years, we are losing out on a pay rise but we are also not getting cut so although not great not terrible either.

Standing up for what you believe is important in anything in life, whether its a lost cause or not. I had it today with one of the kids in class, I'm not doing that Xmas test cause theres no point cuase I didnt study. The answer I gave was well at least try your best and get the best you can out of it whatever it may be.

The defeatist attitude is what I don't agree with. I dont agree with as I was told by one colleague sure everyone else is in HR why should we be different. The answer is be different if it is what you believe in. If they then go and chance your contract to make you do it anyway so be it, at least you have tried to fight for what you belive in

endakenny · 05-12-2013 12:20AM

newholland wrote: »

Asti members have no choice but to vote yes to accept Haddington road. R Quinn holds all the cards, ability to change contracts, public opinion and having all the other unions on board. If tui had voted no asti would stand some chance. There is no way that teachers will go on a long strike so it will be a easy win for the des and r Quinn. I will now accused of trolling but this is my honest opinion. I am in a tui school and hopefully this will result in more students for our school if asti schools are closed and not holding open nights.

Although Further Education teachers, who are represented by the TUI, are technically secondary teachers, the ASTI represents the majority of teachers of Junior and Leaving Cert courses. Mass dismissal of ASTI members for not accepting HRA would cause much more disruption than the ASTI industrial action has and thus would be political suicide.

Peter Flynt · 05-12-2013 08:43AM

Jerry Powerful Vegetarian wrote: »

...and you accuse others of deliberately spreading misinformation on what they think MIGHT happen.

That information is first hand information from an elected member of the Teaching Council.

Some of the YES people are in complete denial.

They think their workload and T&C of employment won't be added to (or made worse) after a YES.

Well - Look what happened after we were locked into Croke Park.

So YES you will be working in June and YES you won't be in a position to oppose this if you vote YES. So vote NO!

Larkinsghost · 05-12-2013 12:23PM

tosh999 wrote: »

Well lets say we do not strike.

The FEMPI legislation mandates the Govt to change our contracts. The probability is that this will happen to include S and S as part of our contract. If there is a refusal to carry out our revised contract then we are in breach of it - perhaps they will dock us all the equivalent of the present allowance? What will we do then?

One way or another, in my opinion, a vote No will result in an even further financial hit.

I dont think you are familar with Industrial relations law. We have a legal right to withdraw Labour. Im not sure if they can deduct money or not but think of it this way. In such a situation you would end up not doing s and s but down 1759 or you can vote FOR HR and be doing s and s and be down 1759!

Larkinsghost · 05-12-2013 12:24PM

endakenny wrote: »

Although Further Education teachers, who are represented by the TUI, are technically secondary teachers, the ASTI represents the majority of teachers of Junior and Leaving Cert courses. Mass dismissal of ASTI members for not accepting HRA would cause much more disruption than the ASTI industrial action has and thus would be political suicide.

Mass dismissal-what person is putting that out there??

acequion · 05-12-2013 12:35PM

Larkinsghost wrote: »

Mass dismissal-what person is putting that out there??

He's only making the point that Ruari's threats are probably no more than threats. And I'd be inclined to agree. While I don't see him just giving in I also don't see him going all heavy as some people suggest. The end result will probably be some sort of compromise.

Powerhouse · 05-12-2013 04:11PM

seavill wrote: »

We will have an increment freeze for 3 years, we are losing out on a pay rise but we are also not getting cut so although not great not terrible either.

An increment freeze is, in effect, a pay-cut. At any point in the future you care to look at you will be earning less than you would have had the increment freeze not happened. That's a pay-cut whichever way you slice it. It is a terrifically clever political stroke that a clear pay-cut is camouflaged so cleverly as to leave people thinking that they are not getting cut at all. For a teacher starting out the value of the increment freeze is about €3,000 in total - some ten per cent of salary - so it is potentially very significant and that is even before the value of longer-term pension implications are considered. Add in the fact that teachers will also be expected to do 33 extra Croke Park hours plus increased S&S unpaid and the aggregated economic value of the effects of the increment freeze/pay-cut is probably staggering over the long-run. An actual pay-cut would merely exacerbate the diminution in remunerative conditions, not avoid it.

rafared · 05-12-2013 05:13PM

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

amacca · 05-12-2013 10:12PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

The only choice I can see with that kind of overloading going on is to cut back on all the voluntary stuff etc if you are in a position to at all

teacherhead · 05-12-2013 10:14PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

how many hours have you done since September?

tosh999 · 05-12-2013 10:22PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

It is my understanding that you are obliged to do a max of 3 classes a week. 2 hours substitution and 1 hour supervision means you'll have your 43 hours done in circa 15 weeks.

rainbowtrout · 05-12-2013 10:46PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness.
Naturally I did another Sub class, that THREE this week so far and I have another most likely tomorrow. (plus 15 mins pre school today)
Should that class be required, and I expect it most likely will, I will have had yet another week with full days on Monday and Friday just for good measure.
Thats the reality of the HR agreement in operation.

I agree that it's crap having to do that many classes and you're not at the end of the week yet, but surely management should have made the decision to cancel some of the matches going on and rearrange them for another date rather than need cover for 16 people?

Delphi91 · 05-12-2013 10:48PM

rafared wrote: »

Further update from a TUI school here. We had 16.....yes 16 people needing cover today. There were several matches on, an away basketball match and various other bits and bobs going on as well as people out with Illness....

S&S used to cover for matches and basketball??? Is that allowed???

rainbowtrout · 05-12-2013 10:51PM

Delphi91 wrote: »

S&S used to cover for matches and basketball??? Is that allowed???

It's not really relevant either way, if people are being used to cover for matches they are not available for S&S so teachers who are free at a time when a class needs to be covered like rafared have to provide S&S for teacher absent due to illness etc.

Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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