State collusion in IRA killings

dj jarvis · 03-12-2013 10:12PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's an all-island matter when you have a finding that there was State involvement in the assassination of members of a foreign police force.

how is it state involvement ?
break it down for me - because the statement " state involvement " implies the gov of the republic had a hand in this - they did not
it was a rouge garda

that's like saying if a public servant was caught for drink driving , just because they work for the state , ergo there is state involvement.

just not true

Sunnyisland · 03-12-2013 10:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

Essentially, yes. The thread title is very misleading.

The Smithwick Tribunal has concluded that there was State collusion in the killing of two RUC superintendents in South Armagh in March 1989.

That's where I got the thread title from.

NuckingFacker · 03-12-2013 10:28PM

I'm just wondering how it took 7 years....jasus, 7......to come to the conclusion that there was "no actual evidence of collusion" but "on the balance of probability" there had been collusion...i.e 7 years to conclude what the dogs on the street could have told you many, many years ago, for free. It must be great to be a Judge on a Tribunal thought the drudgery of putting in the hours for 7 long, dreary years, no matter how high the pay, to reach a conclusion that isn't actually a conclusion...just as well this didn't cost very much..no..wait...

Could the fcukers not have said "Jasus, Sorry, awfully sorry bout that Famalies of the murdered - it looks like there might be a bit of collusion going on - common sense says that's a sound conclusion to reach".

Would have been quicker and cheaper anyway. And less pantomimey and disingenuous.

P. Breathnach · 03-12-2013 10:40PM

realies wrote: »

The Smithwick Tribunal has concluded that there was State collusion in the killing of two RUC superintendents in South Armagh in March 1989....

No, it didn't.

Nodin · 03-12-2013 10:56PM

realies wrote: »

The Smithwick Tribunal has concluded that there was State collusion in the killing of two RUC superintendents in South Armagh in March 1989.

That's where I got the thread title from.

You'll note that the original wording has been changed
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490691-smithwick-tribunal-report/

HansHolzel · 03-12-2013 10:58PM

On RTE, Miriam has just narrowed the carry-on in the North down to "rogue collusion" while licking Gregory Campbell's arse.

Sunnyisland · 03-12-2013 11:03PM

Nodin wrote: »

You'll note that the original wording has been changed
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490691-smithwick-tribunal-report/

There to slow for mr realies

Fratton Fred · 03-12-2013 11:05PM

Rogue collusion, but the infamous garda blind eye appears to have been in evidence.

Mr Corrigan's evidence to the tribunal was vague, evasive and inconsistent and was not credible, the report concluded.
"I do not think that he has been truthful to the tribunal in his evidence in relation to a number of matters," Judge Smithwick said.
Furthermore, it was found that widespread concerns about Mr Corrigan's "extra-curricular activities" - including smuggling and his relationship with subversives - were ignored by senior gardaí.
"I believe that there were sufficient warning signs, such that senior Garda officers should have taken steps to have Detective Sergeant Corrigan transferred away from the border area earlier than this, in fact, occurred," Judge Smithwick said.
RUC concerns about him were relayed to assistant commissioner Eugene Crowley - who went on to become garda commissioner - in 1987 "but there is no evidence of any action having been taken on foot of this information," the tribunal found.
Judge Smithwick found that while there is some evidence that Mr Corrigan passed information to the Provisional IRA, he is "not satisfied that that evidence is of sufficient substance and weight to establish that Mr Corrigan did in fact collude in the murders.

Nodin · 03-12-2013 11:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Rogue collusion, but the infamous garda blind eye appears to have been in evidence.

Do us a favour there Fred, and make whatever point it is you're going to make.

Fratton Fred · 03-12-2013 11:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

Do us a favour there Fred, and make whatever point it is you're going to make.

I thought I just did?

keeponhurling · 04-12-2013 12:17AM

Although Corrigan was a rogue, he was a serious anti-Provo and it's simply not credible to suggest he colluded.
Sure he was the Seargant but nobody inside the station believes it could have been him.
To say he did X,Y or Z that is irrelevant doesnt really make it any more likely.

If there was collusion, and I do think is is a big if. It was some younger guard.

However equally likely is that they were spotted, either on the way through Newry/ S Armagh or in Dundalk itself.
The Provos had eyes and ears everywhere those days, and sometimes literally would have a lad parked outside the station watching who was coming and going. Remember this was 1989.
Plus it was not the two officers' first times traveling down to Dundalk for meetings, and they didn't vary their route despite being told it would be wise (allegedly), two RUC superintendents in 1989 FFS, not exactly low profile especially given the extraditions around that time.

Anyways, Smithwick has sent 7 years looking at this and feels there was collusion so I would hope he'd have taken a balanced look at every possibility.

As mentioned in other posters, it's quite an allegation to throw the way of Guardai stationed in Dundalk at that time, without evidence.

Santa Cruz · 04-12-2013 12:26AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Will any of these Gardai be held accountable?

Shatter prejudged the recent Roma kids disgrace by saying that the Gardai acted "in good faith". Nonsense.

Did Smithwick say that it was a Garda in Dundalk station or someone in Dundalk station which would bring cleaners, maintenance staff in to the picture

hullaballoo · 04-12-2013 12:48AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

how is it state involvement ?
break it down for me - because the statement " state involvement " implies the gov of the republic had a hand in this - they did not

"State" does not mean "government" so "state involvement" doesn't implicate the government necessarily.

steddyeddy · 04-12-2013 12:52AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's a NI matter.

Fair enough I think we're just going to end up with the usual trench warfare here though.

It's an Ireland matter I'm afraid.

HansHolzel · 04-12-2013 01:05AM

Someone just texted into Browne with the suggestion that Smithwick now investigate the penalty points.

Banjoxed · 04-12-2013 01:08AM

HansHolzel wrote: »

On RTE, Miriam has just narrowed the carry-on in the North down to "rogue collusion" while licking Gregory Campbell's arse.

Ah sure a few aul' rogues. Sure aren't they the terror all together.

Yes they bloody well are.

[-0-] · 04-12-2013 02:30AM

Harsh reality of being a member of forces of occupation.

dj jarvis · 04-12-2013 09:03AM

hullaballoo wrote: »

"State" does not mean "government" so "state involvement" doesn't implicate the government necessarily.

really ???

whatever - you are the only one that thinks that

kerry4sam · 04-12-2013 04:30PM

RTE news report here.
Personally thought it took some time for a statement from any member of An Garda Síochána, but welcome the following though

"Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan has said he accepted the conclusions arrived at by Judge Peter Smithwick...
&
Former Minister for Justice Gerry Collins said the Government and garda authorities must face up to Judge Smithwick's comment that both the RUC and gardaí acted swiftly to dismiss speculation of the possibility of collusion rather than deal with it in a thorough and credible investigation.
He said the question has arisen as to whether An Garda Síochána is suitable to investigate itself, and added that he does not believe it is any more."

Some definite food for thought today considering recent incidents!

Speaking at the same conference though, Minister for Justice Alan Shatter ruled out a further inquiry into the findings of the Smithwick Tribunal.

So that will be that! Two families shattered with the loss of family members after being murdered, but no further inquiry into these findings by a Well Respected Judge, Judge Peter Smithwick.

tayto lover · 04-12-2013 06:37PM

Eight years investigating this matter and this is the best they can come up with?

Many unprofessional investigators could have come up with that the following day.

What were they doing for 8 years and how did it cost 12 million?
Jobs for the boys again it seems.

I am pie · 04-12-2013 06:57PM

So basically, aye someone told but sure we'd never be able to catch them.

You may as well get my granny in to do these tribunals bceause she said the same thing a few years ago.

tayto lover · 04-12-2013 07:30PM

I am pie wrote: »

So basically, aye someone told but sure we'd never be able to catch them.

You may as well get my granny in to do these tribunals bceause she said the same thing a few years ago.

Smithwicks said that on the law of probability the leak came from inside Dundalk garda station. FFS. 8 years for that.

If the law of probabilities was credible there would be no such thing as bookies.

timmy4u2 · 04-12-2013 07:41PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Eight years investigating this matter and this is the best they can come up with?

Many unprofessional investigators could have come up with that the following day.

What were they doing for 8 years and how did it cost 12 million?
Jobs for the boys again it seems.

These tribunals are crazy. Crazy in the amount of time they take, crazy in the amount of money they take and crazy in the value of the outcome.

How Smithwick could come to the conclusion that there was collusion in the killing of the RUC Officers and at the same time state that the three suspect Gardai were not involved but rather it was an unidentified mole in Dundalk station
To come to his conclusion of the label of "collusion" he invented the meaning of it to include inaction, among other things.
COLLUSION
http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2013/1203/490666-smithwick-tribunal-collusion/

Several phone calls were made arranging the meeting. Could these calls have been intercepted? Giving the lack of technology available to the Gardai at the time it would be very easy to eavesdrop on the conversation.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1110/308541-smithwick/

In the mid 70's the Gardai introduced a scrambler into the patrol car radios but it was a system that never worked as it broke down after a few minutes of work.
Again working from memory was it not discovered that a flat overlooking Dundalk Station was rented by subversives in order to monitor the comings and goings of Police both North and South.
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argusnews/vacant-buildings-perfect-place-for-spying-26959130.html
The only collusion that I can see is the collusion at the time to cover it up and that collusion is perpetuated by the smithwick tribunal as all it has done is dwell on conjecture rather than exploring the facts.

Sunnyisland · 04-12-2013 07:42PM

As a person who lived in NI in the 70,s/80,s it comes as no surprise to me that there were Garda with republican sympathies, fortunately or Unfortunally some of them did give help and closet support to the provisionals.

The surprise is the mock sadness from the likes of Michael Martin & FF and E Gilmore, especially with gilmores close ties to the official IRA who were no angels at all.

There just playing political football as usuall.

DwightSchrute1 · 04-12-2013 08:10PM

realies wrote: »

As a person who lived in NI in the 70,s/80,s it comes as no surprise to me that there were Garda with republican sympathies, fortunately or Unfortunally some of them did give help and closet support to the provisionals.

The surprise is the mock sadness from the likes of Michael Martin & FF and E Gilmore, especially with gilmores close ties to the official IRA who were no angels at all.

There just playing political football as usuall.

fyp

timmy4u2 · 04-12-2013 08:23PM

realies wrote: »

As a person who lived in NI in the 70,s/80,s it comes as no surprise to me that there were Garda with republican sympathies, fortunately or Unfortunally some of them did give help and closet support to the provisionals.

The surprise is the mock sadness from the likes of Michael Martin & FF and E Gilmore, especially with gilmores close ties to the official IRA who were no angels at all.

There just playing political football as usuall.

In the end of the day the two officers are again being sacrificed. They were partly the authors of their own misfortune by not being more cautious but they did deserve to have the incident properly investigated North and South of the border at the time.
The Northern side were afraid that Breens alleged association with Loyalists might be leaked out and South of the border did not want that to come out either.
You can picture the reaction if it came out about Breens alleged associations and he was gleaning information from the Gardai in Dundalk on a regular basis.
And what was true then in 1989 is still true today.
You can be sure there is much more to this than meets the eye.
Both sides of the border were far too quick to sing the same song as they were in 1989

timmy4u2 · 04-12-2013 09:46PM

realies wrote: »

As a person who lived in NI in the 70,s/80,s it comes as no surprise to me that there were Garda with republican sympathies, fortunately or Unfortunally some of them did give help and closet support to the provisionals.

The surprise is the mock sadness from the likes of Michael Martin & FF and E Gilmore, especially with gilmores close ties to the official IRA who were no angels at all.

There just playing political football as usuall.

Of course you must not forget that not far removed from those times the actions of Charlie Haughey and Jack Lynch with the latters doomsday plan to invade the North.
It follows that some agents of the state would be on the same wavelength, even if only to ensure career promotions

Nodin · 04-12-2013 09:48PM

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Of course you must not forget that not far removed from those times the actions of Charlie Haughey and Jack Lynch with the latters doomsday plan to invade the North.
It follows that some agents of the state would be on the same wavelength, even if only to ensure career promotions

1989? Seriously?

timmy4u2 · 04-12-2013 09:57PM

Nodin wrote: »

1989? Seriously?

You should read the posts. The quoted poster was referring to his time in the border areas in the mid seventies and early eighties:rolleyes:

Galwayguy35 · 05-12-2013 06:38PM

Gregory Campbell was very selective about what he mentioned that happened in 1969 during the interview on Primetime the other night, he wants the Government here to apologise for "arming the IRA" but sure let's brush over the facts that Catholics were second class citizens and were being burned out of their homes.

No fear MOC was going to point this out to him either.

State collusion in IRA killings

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