State collusion in IRA killings

Sunnyisland

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490691-smithwick-tribunal-report/

The Smithwick Tribunal has concluded that there was State collusion in the killing of two RUC superintendents in South Armagh in March 1989.
Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan were shot dead by the IRA shortly after leaving a meeting at Dundalk Garda Station.
Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has apologised without reservation for any failings identified in the report on the part of the State or any of its agencies.

He said the murders were stark examples of the brutality "which pervaded this island for many dark years".
In his report Mr Justice Peter Smithwick states that he is satisfied that there was someone within Dundalk Garda Station assisting the IRA.
He also said it seems to him to be likely that the Provisional IRA would seek to exploit that resource by having one or more individuals confirm the arrival of the two RUC officers at the station.

The report concluded that the Tribunal has not uncovered direct evidence of collusion.
"There is no record of a phone call, no traceable payment, no smoking gun the report" it has found.
Judge Peter Smithwick said this is not surprising.
He said however that detailed consideration must be given to the events of 20 March 1989, when the RUC officers were killed.

He said following detailed consideration, he has reached the conclusion that from the afternoon or early evening of the previous Thursday 16 March 1989, it was intended that Chief Supt Breen and Supt Buchanan would travel to Dundalk at the beginning of the following week.
Those RUC Officers who attended that meeting would have been aware of this plan, and a number of others became aware of it during the course of Friday, 17 March and Saturday, 19 March.

He went on to note that just after 10am on Monday, 20 March, Supt Buchanan told Superintendent Tierney in Dundalk Garda Station that he and his Divisional Commander wished to visit the station that day.
Judge Peter Smithwick concluded that Bob Buchanan spoke to Chief Superintendent Nolan and a meeting was arranged.
Chief Superintendent Nolan shared that information with Inspector Frank Murray at a tea break at around 11am and the possibility that other persons heard that conversation cannot be excluded.

The Smithwick Tribunal was set up in 2005 to examine whether a member of An Garda Síochána or any other employee of the State, had passed information to the IRA which allowed them time to set up the ambush in South Armagh in which the RUC officers were murdered.
Mr Justice Smithwick began private investigations in 2006 and held public hearings from 2011 until earlier this earlier this year.


To long to read,
Tribunal says there was state collusion in the killings of two top Ruc men by the IRA.

I am not to surprised by this, are you ?

mike65

Your headline suggests the State was trying to kill Provos - which I would hope to be the case! :pac:

I'm ancient enough to remember that well, right at the time the thought was of a collaborator "mole" in the Dundlak area (bandit country of course), the only surprise is that this has come out at all.

Nodin

There was collusion by somebody who was ostensibly an agent of the state, but that's rather different to actual state collusion.

Seaneh

Nodin wrote: »

There was collusion by somebody who was ostensibly an agent of the state, but that's rather different to actual state collusion.

Was just about to post this.

Daqster

realies wrote: »

The Smithwick Tribunal..

Sure don't mind them they're all drunk.

Iwasfrozen

Probably better off in the Northern Ireland forum.

hotmail.com

Will any of these Gardai be held accountable?

Shatter prejudged the recent Roma kids disgrace by saying that the Gardai acted "in good faith". Nonsense.

Banjo String

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Probably better off in the Northern Ireland forum.

Why?

Sunnyisland

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Probably better off in the Northern Ireland forum.

I was going to put it there,but AH been the most popular forum on boards I thought a wider newer audience might appreciate the topic or not.

Iwasfrozen

Banjo String wrote: »

Why?

Because it's a NI matter.

realies wrote: »

I was going to put it there,but AH been the most popular forum on boards I thought a wider newer audience might appreciate the topic or not.

Fair enough I think we're just going to end up with the usual trench warfare here though.

hullaballoo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's a NI matter.


Fair enough I think we're just going to end up with the usual trench warfare here though.

It's an all-island matter when you have a finding that there was State involvement in the assassination of members of a foreign police force.

tdv123

mike65 wrote: »

Your headline suggests the State was trying to kill Provos - which I would hope to be the case! :pac:

I'm ancient enough to remember that well, right at the time the thought was of a collaborator "mole" in the Dundlak area (bandit country of course), the only surprise is that this has come out at all.

The Gibraltar massacre was Irish State collusion in killings of Provos (liberators) so that's one case you might want to look up.

Fentdog84

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's a NI matter.

Assuming you are not trolling, there are cops from the Rep of Ireland implicated
in the murders of two high profile policemen from yes, Northern Ireland. I dont thinks its exclusively a Northern Ireland matter. Plus, we dont just talk about issues that happen within Rep of ireland here.

Me?

Delving into dark days in our history will always turn up dark activities on both sides of the troubles.

This is not a condoning of any of the actions of anyone involved but they were very different times. Thankfully and hopefully to remain in history.

KwackerJack

Shocking!!

At least the British government weren't involved in Killings or using Royal Marines as interrogators!!!

Me?

KwackerJack wrote: »

Shocking!!

At least the British government weren't involved in Killings or using Royal Marines as interrogators!!!

Reallly I thought they were. :rolleyes

KwackerJack

Me? wrote: »

Reallly I thought they were. :rolleyes

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/i-dont-always-send-a-sarcastic-text.jpeg

Sunnyisland

Irish police officers colluded in the IRA murders of two senior Northern Ireland police officers, an inquiry has found.

Chief Supt Harry Breen and Supt Bob Buchanan were shot dead in an ambush in March 1989 in south Armagh.

The attack happened as they crossed the border into Northern Ireland after a meeting in Dundalk Garda station.

In the report of his inquiry, judge Peter Smithwick said he was "satisfied there was collusion in the murders". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25199800

BBC news

Me?

KwackerJack wrote: »

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/i-dont-always-send-a-sarcastic-text.jpeg

It's bad sarcasm if you miss the rebound.

cali_eire

Truly sickening and shameful.

DwightSchrute1

hotmail.com wrote: »

Will any of these Gardai be held accountable?.

I doubt anything will happen to them seeing as it was based on hearsay evidence and the lack of direct evidence is not substantial enough.

Me?

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

I doubt anything will happen to them seeing as it was based on hearsay evidence and the lack of direct evidence is not substantial enough.

So this thread is about hearsay?

/thread

DwightSchrute1

Me? wrote: »

So this thread is about hearsay?

/thread

What are you on about? Alls im saying is that Judge Smithwick stated in relation to one witness claiming a Garda was a mole for the IRA, it was "hearsay evidence"

Also in relation to another Garda passing on information to the IRA, Judge Smithwick stated that direct evidence was all but impossible to find.

MadsL

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's a NI matter.


Fair enough I think we're just going to end up with the usual trench warfare here though.

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Assuming you are not trolling, there are cops from the Rep of Ireland implicated
in the murders of two high profile policemen from yes, Northern Ireland. I dont thinks its exclusively a Northern Ireland matter. Plus, we dont just talk about issues that happen within Rep of ireland here.

That would be an ecumenical matter?

wendell borton

How is it state collusion? There seems to be very tenuous evidence that maybe individuals acting alone might have given info to the IRA.

Nodin

wendell borton wrote: »

How is it state collusion? There seems to be very tenuous evidence that maybe individuals acting alone might have given info to the IRA.

Indeed. The BBC article is far more clearly worded than the RTE, funny enough.

Spirit of 67

From the sworn affadavit of RUC Sergeant John Weir, a former member of the notorious Glennane gang, who was jailed for murder of chemist William Strathearn :

20. I was friendly at that time with RUC Constable Billy McBride and I visited his home on one occasion at a time when Chief Inspector Harry Breen was present. We discussed McBride's connection to a group of Loyalists in Co. Down called Down Orange Welfare, which was headed by a retired Army officer, Lt. Col. Edward Brush. McBride told us he was a member of this group, which was almost entirely composed of members or ex-members of the security forces. He produced a .38 revolver from a drawer in his living room and after I had examined it he replaced it in the drawer. He then went into another room and brought out two home made sub-machine guns, copies of the Sterling machine-gun. He explained that Down Orange Welfare was manufacturing Sterling sub-machine guns and that the two he had shown me were the prototypes and were of imperfect design. McBride added that the group were in the process of making an M1 carbine, an American rifle, and that the only remaining problem to be tackled was the ejector mechanism for spent bullets. He anticipated that this would not present any insuperable difficulty. In Chief Inspector Breen's presence he then offered me the two sub-machine guns because he knew about my connections to Loyalist paramilitaries. I accepted them and took them to Mitchell's farmhouse.

21. Constable McBride was a gunsmith and, following this initial meeting with him, guns changed hands on several occasions. On one occasion, after McBride had told me that he had received four new sub-machine guns from Down Orange Welfare, I contacted Armstrong who soon arrived with McClure at Newry RUC station. Armstrong had a conversation with Chief Inspector Breen, whom he knew well, and the three of us went to McBride's house where we collected the guns. These sub-machine guns were transported to Mitchell's farmhouse where I later test fired them in a hayshed. They worked perfectly. Mitchell subsequently sold these weapons to Jackie Whitten, a UVF paramilitary leader in Portadown for 100 pounds each. I then gave the 400 pounds to McBride so that the money could be used for the manufacture of further weapons. In summary, Down Orange Welfare was using RUC officers in Newry RUC station - McBride, Breen, myself - and another RUC officer, Sergeant Monty Alexander from Forkhill RUC station - to supply weapons to the UVF in Portadown. I later learned that these weapons were being manufactured by Samuel McCoubrey in Spa, Co. Down.

22. While I was based in Newry Armstrong took me about four times to meet Robin Jackson in Lurgan, where we discussed possible attacks on the IRA. I recall one occasion when Armstrong, Jackson and I visited McBride at his home in Newry to discuss the assassination of a leading IRA man in the town. We did this because McBride had detailed knowledge of Republican activity but the attack never materialised. On another occasion, Armstrong, Jackson and I reconnoitred IRA homes in south Armagh and, though we did not have a gun, Jackson carried a hammer and a knife: he told us that if we were to find a suitable person to kill, he knew how to do it with those weapons. We went near the homes of two IRA men in the Silverbridge area. Stephen Reel and the local IRA quartermaster, whose name I cannot now recall, but we did not attack either of them. On our way back to Lurgan we were stopped near the bord er by an RUC road-block under the control of RUC Inspector Earl McDowell from Bessbrook RUC station. Although McDowell had encountered two RUC officers, Armstrong and myself in the company of the most notorious Loyalist paramilitary in Northern Ireland, Robin Jackson, he merely exchanged pleasantries and waved us through.

23. During one of our visits to Jackson's house in Lurgan, Jackson explained to Armstrong and me that he had been approached by RUC Constable William McCaughey and an RUC Special Branch officer, known to him but not identified to us, with a proposal to kill an RUC Sergeant. He did not identify the proposed victim, nor did he tell us where the policeman lived or worked. I asked him why they intended to kill an RUC officer and he informed me he had been told this man had Republican connections. I expressed my doubts and reservations about such an operation and I asked him if he knew what he was getting into. He told me there were no problems at all and that, to keep himself safe, he would insist that the RUC Special Branch deliver a gun to him at an entry where it had been prearranged that the shooting would take place. He had been inviting me to accompany him on the killing but he realised from my reaction that I wished to have no part in it. Armstrong made no comment of any kind and I now know that he did not participate in any way in this killing.

24. A short time after this conversation, RUC Sergeant Joseph Campbell was shot dead in Cushendall. However, at the time, I did not connect Campbell's murder with my earlier conversation with Jackson. Nor did Jackson mention the Campbell murder with me at our first meeting after the Campbell killing, nor did I ever discuss it with McCaughey: nor did I ever discuss it with Jackson at any time. There was no reason why, at the time of that murder, I should have made any such connection because the IRA were regularly murdering policemen and I had no reason for thinking that the Campbell murder was in any way unusual. At my first meeting with Jackson some weeks after my refusal to help him oblige his RUC Special Branch associate. Jackson proposed to me that I help him murder a different person, someone in Co. Antrim. This would turn out to be William Strathearn.

25. I was on duty in Newry RUC station when I received a phone call from RUC Constable William McCaughey asking me to meet him in Armagh. We met in a pub in Armagh and he discussed with me a reported shooting incident in Ahoghill in which a police officer was, as I recall, shot in the leg. McCaughey raised the issue of the need for a retaliation but nothing specific was planned at that stage. McCaughey then asked me if I would accompany him to meet Robin Jackson in Lurgan and I agreed. We travelled to Lurgan in my car and we met Jackson at his home. When we arrived, I soon realised that the proposed retaliation was at a more advanced level than McCaughey had indicated or than I had appreciated. It quickly became obvious to me that the proposed attack had already been discussed in detail and I was taken aback to discover that Jackson and McCaughey proposed to carry out the operation on that particular night. I listened when McCaughey told Jackson that the gun to be used in the attack had never been used in any shooting before, that he had taken it from Lurgan RUC station and that it was in his home. I heard McCaughey and Jackson agree how they would proceed with Jackson saying he would go and collect his helper on the lorry R.J. Kerr while McCaughey would take me with him to his house, where he would collect the gun, before going on to rendezvous with Jackson and Kerr at the roundabout in Moira, Co. Antrim. I did not know at that stage the identity of the proposed target in Ahoghill nor did I know for certain whether Jackson and McCaughey merely intended to frighten a particular person or to kill him. I found I was participating in an operation that I had not discussed fully and whose consequences I did not properly appreciate. The entire discussion at Jackson's home lasted a few minutes. However, I wish to make it clear that I took part in this operation voluntarily and that I went along with the arrangements made by McCaughey and Jackson.

26. After McCaughey had collected the gun from his home in Lurgan I drove him in my own car to the roundabout at Moira where Jackson and his helper were already waiting in a lorry. Jackson drove the lorry and we followed him towards Ahoghill, stopping behind him when he parked approximately one mile before reaching the village. I now recall, on the basis of my conversation with McCaughey in the car, that McCaughey, like me, did not fully appreciate that Jackson was going to commit a murder. And even after Jackson and Kerr had got into my car outside Ahoghill village, McCaughey seemed still to think that Jackson was merely going to frighten the chosen person rather than kill him. I believed, wrongly as it was soon to turn out, that Jackson and Kerr were merely going to fire into the house to frighten the occupants and it was evident to me that McCaughey also held the same opinion. After giving Jackson the gun, McCaughey told him just to fire through the upstairs windows so as to make sure the occupants got the message. My main concern, at that late stage, was that my car number plates would be easily identified but when I shared this concern with McCaugheyhe assured me there was nothing to worry about and that he was certain that there were no security forces in the area. McCaughey and I waited in the car not far from the target house and we both heard the shooting. After Jackson and Kerr had returned and got into my car, Jackson said that he had shot the man twice and we then left the village calmly. I drove my car back to the lorry, where Jackson and Kerr got out so they could go on to their ultimate destination to deliver a load of chickens. I drove McCaughey to his father's house in Ahoghill and McCaughey told his father, in my presence, that Jackson had shot somebody dead in the town. He gave his father the gun for safe keeping. Next morning I learned from the news on the radio that the victim had been William Strathearn.

27. After leaving McCaughey's father's house I drove McCaughey back to Armagh and dropped him off at the RUC station. I then proceeded toBessbrook RUC station where I had living quarters even though I was still stationed in Newry. I went to work early on the morning after the killing and carried on with my normal work. However, over the following week I told three colleagues about what had happened. These were Chief Inspector Breen, Constable Bob Hamilton and RUC Special Branch Constable Ian Begley. All of these three men already knew about collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries and RUC officers including McBride, Sergeant Monty Alexander and myself. Chief Inspector Breen also knew about similar illegal activities by McCaughey and Armstrong. Ian Begley, for example, had previously told me that he thought McBride had been involved with Jackson in the murder of a Catholic close, I believe, to Mayobridge in South Down in the early 1970s.

28. I think it is important to make it clear that this collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries such as Robin Jackson and my RUC colleagues and me was taking place with the full knowledge of my superiors. I recall that after I had told Chief Inspector Breen about my involvement in the Strathearn murder, that he told me to forget about it. I also recall later witnessing a conversation between Chief Inspector Breen and Inspector Harvey who was in charge of Newry CID when both men discussed with approval McCaughey and Armstrong's continuing activity in Loyalist terrorism with Robin Jackson. And I recall another occasion, in the toilets at the Pitbar near Bessbrook when RUC Special Branch Constable David Miller indicated to me that he knew I had been involved in the Strathearn murder and suggested he would not object if I was to kill an identified IRA man in Newry. For these and other reasons I did not think there was the slightest possibility that I would ever be arrested or charged with my role in the Strathearn murder.

29. Some months after the Strathearn murder I was called to a meeting with the head of RUC Special Branch in Newry, Chief Inspector Brian Fitzsimmons. He confirmed what I had already been told by Chief Inspector Breen that I was to be transferred to Newtownhamilton RUC station. During this meeting Mr. Fitzsimmons let me know that he was aware that I had been involved in Loyalist terrorist activity for some time but it was clear he was not bothered by this. He told me that he knew all about my paramilitary past activities with James Mitchell and that my local connections to Loyalist paramilitaries were part of the reason why I was being placed in charge of Newtownhamilton RUC station. I understood the message of my meeting with Chief inspector Fitzsimmons to be that I had the green light to carry on with my activities. I now know that Chief Inspector Fitzsimmons rose to the rank of Assistant Chief constable and that he was killed in the Chinook helicopter crash in Scotland in 1994.

BillyMitchel

Is State not a small exaggeration?

Son Of A Vidic

Nodin wrote: »

There was collusion by somebody who was ostensibly an agent of the state, but that's rather different to actual state collusion.

The Irish state was never an ally of the IRA. Which was quite unlike the British state and it's Loyalist allies. It is also nothing like the level of British state collusion that was involved in the arming, training, organising and supplying of intelligence to Loyalist death squads. Death squads that targeted and terrorised the Catholic community in the North and were directed by the likes of Brian Nelson. All too often the lines between UDR membership and UVF/UFF membership were frequently blurred. One alleged Gardá agent does not equal State collusion.

Frank Lee Midere

hotmail.com wrote: »

Will any of these Gardai be held accountable?

Shatter prejudged the recent Roma kids disgrace by saying that the Gardai acted "in good faith". Nonsense.

Well the tribunal had bog all evidence of anything. So no.

.jacksparrow.

So the judge said in his opinion there probably was.

That's it?

Einhard

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

So the judge said in his opinion there probably was.

That's it?

That's how a tribunaL works. Similar to the ones that probed the corruption of Haughey and Ahern, and the one that investigated Bloody Sunday. Nothing beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think it's particularly shocking to find that some members the Garda colluded with the IRA, but as others have pointed out, it's ridiculous to paint this as state collusion.

DwightSchrute1

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

So the judge said in his opinion there probably was.

That's it?

The judge said there is no direct evidence to back up the claims, his hands are pretty much tied if that's the case.

joe swanson

hotmail.com wrote: »

Will any of these Gardai be held accountable?

Shatter prejudged the recent Roma kids disgrace by saying that the Gardai acted "in good faith". Nonsense.

How do u know they didnt?

Me?

So we are all over the world news on the opinion of one man who came to a conclusion without direct evidence?

I am confused.

Einhard

Me? wrote: »

I am confused.

No you're not. Or, at any rate, if this was a finding of a British agent's collusion in UDA murders, you wouldn't be. Stop pretending.

DwightSchrute1

Me? wrote: »

So we are all over the world news on the opinion of one man who came to a conclusion without direct evidence?

I am confused.

Maybe this might help with the confusion;

Judge Peter Smithwick’s report, which was published this evening, was unable to find direct evidence of collusion in the killings but said ‘on balance of probability’ that gardaí at Dundalk Garda Station were most likely involved.

Banjo String

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's a NI matter.


.

State collusion from within this state though?

My name is URL

To those saying that it's not 'state' collusion. How would ye define that exactly.. How many people would need to be involved for it to be considered state collusion, or at what level would the people involved need to be acting at?

Me?

Einhard wrote: »

No you're not. Or, at any rate, if this was a finding of a British agent's collusion in UDA murders, you wouldn't be. Stop pretending.

I'd be just as confused may be my ignorance of the procedure of a tribunal and the weight the findings hold. To me it's just formation of an opinion.

Like me believing Larry Murphy is probably a serial killer but I can't prove it.

Frank Lee Midere

Einhard wrote: »

That's how a tribunaL works. Similar to the ones that probed the corruption of Haughey and Ahern, and the one that investigated Bloody Sunday. Nothing beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think it's particularly shocking to find that some members the Garda colluded with the IRA, but as others have pointed out, it's ridiculous to paint this as state collusion.

He is nowhere near reasonable doubt.

Frank Lee Midere

My name is URL wrote: »

To those saying that it's not 'state' collusion. How would ye define that exactly.. How many people would need to be involved for it to be considered state collusion, or at what level would the people involved need to be acting at?

Well the British army had a unit which was set up to kill British citizens at barricades so that decision clearly went higher than one guy.

Frank Lee Midere

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

Maybe this might help with the confusion;

Judge Peter Smithwick’s report, which was published this evening, was unable to find direct evidence of collusion in the killings but said ‘on balance of probability’ that gardaí at Dundalk Garda Station were most likely involved.

But then he found nothing. Seriously. His findings should have been "I found nothing".

Einhard

My name is URL wrote: »

To those saying that it's not 'state' collusion. How would ye define that exactly.. How many people would need to be involved for it to be considered state collusion, or at what level would the people involved need to be acting at?

Well, I don't believe that one person personifies an entire country, and so the actions of one person cannot be attributed to an entire nation. Otherwise, one would have the ridiculous scenario of the state being labeled criminal every time one of its employees was found guilty of a crime. One man acting illegally =/= the state acting illegally.

Einhard

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He is nowhere near reasonable doubt.

He doesn't need to be. Jesus Christ, what is it with some people? When it comes to the IRA or Republican activities or anything to do with them, there is never any wrongdoing of any kind. If this was a finding of British collusion, I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't be here questioning the findings.

Nodin

My name is URL wrote: »

To those saying that it's not 'state' collusion. How would ye define that exactly.. How many people would need to be involved for it to be considered state collusion, or at what level would the people involved need to be acting at?

....if it was standard practice to share information with the RA for instance. If an order had come from Dublin. If the senior Gardaí in Dundalk had sat down and planned it, known to Gardaí outside Dundalk....

As it stands its not known whether a Garda overheard something and passed it on, or whether a Garda with access to the information passed it on.

Nodin

Einhard wrote: »

Well, I don't believe that one person personifies an entire country, and so the actions of one person cannot be attributed to an entire nation. Otherwise, one would have the ridiculous scenario of the state being labeled criminal every time one of its employees was found guilty of a crime. One man acting illegally =/= the state acting illegally.

Essentially, yes. The thread title is very misleading.

DwightSchrute1

My name is URL wrote: »

To those saying that it's not 'state' collusion. How would ye define that exactly.. How many people would need to be involved for it to be considered state collusion, or at what level would the people involved need to be acting at?

i believe that it was a handful of Gardai who were republican sympathisers, that used there positions in order to benefit the IRA. Rogue Gardai so to speak Its not necessarily that the State colluded to have the two police officers killed.

Frank Lee Midere

Einhard wrote: »

He doesn't need to be. Jesus Christ, what is it with some people? When it comes to the IRA or Republican activities or anything to do with them, there is never any wrongdoing of any kind. If this was a finding of British collusion, I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't be here questioning the findings.

I have no interest in a United Ireland. Nevertheless this report is nonsense. Any moralist would be more concerned with British army renegade squads set up to kill people at barricades, than a report about one guy where there was no proof of anything - not even one guy - having links to anything. The judge should have said "no evidence". Balance of probabilities is withcraftism.

Me?

So anyone questioning the mechanics of a tribunal and the opinion of one man who comes to a conclusion where there is no evidence is an IRA sympathizer, Einhard?

tayto lover

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

Maybe this might help with the confusion;

Judge Peter Smithwick’s report, which was published this evening, was unable to find direct evidence of collusion in the killings but said ‘on balance of probability’ that gardaí at Dundalk Garda Station were most likely involved.

I'm confused too.
Do you not need some kind of evidence that would stand up in a court?