Suffering on the cross

Safehands · 28-11-2013 12:32PM

shamreez wrote: »

I guess you can give a call to Mel Gibson and ask the question coz the other option (asking the church) might only give you their latest version.

I'd like to hear some sensible argument from someone who is not just giving a vague hypothetical answer.

jemlad · 29-11-2013 06:02AM

Yes Jesus suffered excruciating pain on the cross. In Psalm 22 it gives you a bit of an idea of what He was going through.

Psalm 22 14-18
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment."

None of his bones were broken as this was one of the prophecies that had to be fulfilled.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken"

Loads of His bones were dislocated and from personal experience of my kneecap taking a sudden trip around to the side of my leg while playing football I can assure you I've never experienced anything like it! You just lie there and scream until an ambulance arrives!

Also he was scourged and his beard was pulled out by the roots

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

As far as Jesus turning off the pain, that didn't happen as Jesus was both God and Man. Two distinct natures. Godhood and Manhood, they did not mix but were both present. And God is three distinct persons and one God. It's hard to get our head around it as we are "only human". It's a thread on its own and I could write for days on it but in short The Holy Trinity. Three distinct personalities one God. Jesus came into the world to live as a man experiencing all the things man experiences as in hunger, thirst, weariness etc and especially temptation of sin. He was also born of a woman and marvelled at things and cried. Soulandform said that Jesus willed to have more pain. Jesus didn't will anything. He did His Fathers will. He was the Son of God. God the Father stayed in heaven communicating with his son to do His will unto death. What better way to exact perfect judgement on the world than to experience all the things man experiences.

As far as Calvin and his "weird idea" its not really that weird. Not that He went to hell but He was punished for each individual that is "saved". Not every single person as catholic doctrine will have you believe but for those that repent (turn from sin or have a desire to turn from sin) most people will still go to hell as the bible says

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

To balaclava1991. Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge. Satan knowing this deceived mankind into sin due to his hatred of man and God found a way to save man without contravening that perfection by sacrificing that which is perfect so that a man can receive Jesus perfect record to get into heaven as Jesus took the punishment that we deserve. An analogy would be of a murderer, for example, before a judge. If the judge let him off without punishment he wouldn't be much of a judge. Instead, as justice must be served the judge takes the punishment for the murderer. Also God can't just get rid of satan quite so simply. Yes it's not out of his power but God created free will so if He was to destroy satan or anyone the moment they sin it takes away free will by default, which is a good thing as you and I would be dead a long time ago by now! And in relation to the wider universe that's speculation with absolutely no evidence to the contrary so I wont go into that.

To safehands, No people haven't sinned less but that's where free will comes into it. People have a desire to sin. The bible says we're "Born into sin" But you can have a desire to turn from sin and that's where the Holy Spirit comes into it to do a miraculous work in the soul of a man to help him turn from sin if he truly repents (truly desires to not sin) but unfortunately most people love sin and that's why most people won't get into heaven but His sacrifice most definitely does work in those that do repent.

To Lantus, His sacrifice wasn't just the pain and suffering but also His will. He did the will of the Father. This is the blueprint to all mankind. God created us for His good pleasure. He didn't need us but out of love He created life and all things. We are expected to give up our will and do the will of God voluntarily. He isn't going to force us and given how bad we are at running our lives for a mere 80 years if we're lucky how do you think we'd do with eternal lives? We will all have eternal life after death in one of two places. Heaven doing the will of the Father or hell in eternal separation from the Father. God will give us better lives than we can provide for ourselves but if we think differently that's your "free will". You'd be wrong but still your prerogative.

Hope this helped.

God bless you all.
James.

P.S. Repent and believe in the gospel

Geomy · 29-11-2013 08:59AM

jemlad wrote: »

Yes Jesus suffered excruciating pain on the cross. In Psalm 22 it gives you a bit of an idea of what He was going through.

Psalm 22 14-18
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment."

None of his bones were broken as this was one of the prophecies that had to be fulfilled.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken"

Loads of His bones were dislocated and from personal experience of my kneecap taking a sudden trip around to the side of my leg while playing football I can assure you I've never experienced anything like it! You just lie there and scream until an ambulance arrives!

Also he was scourged and his beard was pulled out by the roots

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

As far as Jesus turning off the pain, that didn't happen as Jesus was both God and Man. Two distinct natures. Godhood and Manhood, they did not mix but were both present. And God is three distinct persons and one God. It's hard to get our head around it as we are "only human". It's a thread on its own and I could write for days on it but in short The Holy Trinity. Three distinct personalities one God. Jesus came into the world to live as a man experiencing all the things man experiences as in hunger, thirst, weariness etc and especially temptation of sin. He was also born of a woman and marvelled at things and cried. Soulandform said that Jesus willed to have more pain. Jesus didn't will anything. He did His Fathers will. He was the Son of God. God the Father stayed in heaven communicating with his son to do His will unto death. What better way to exact perfect judgement on the world than to experience all the things man experiences.

As far as Calvin and his "weird idea" its not really that weird. Not that He went to hell but He was punished for each individual that is "saved". Not every single person as catholic doctrine will have you believe but for those that repent (turn from sin or have a desire to turn from sin) most people will still go to hell as the bible says

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

To balaclava1991. Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge. Satan knowing this deceived mankind into sin due to his hatred of man and God found a way to save man without contravening that perfection by sacrificing that which is perfect so that a man can receive Jesus perfect record to get into heaven as Jesus took the punishment that we deserve. An analogy would be of a murderer, for example, before a judge. If the judge let him off without punishment he wouldn't be much of a judge. Instead, as justice must be served the judge takes the punishment for the murderer. Also God can't just get rid of satan quite so simply. Yes it's not out of his power but God created free will so if He was to destroy satan or anyone the moment they sin it takes away free will by default, which is a good thing as you and I would be dead a long time ago by now! And in relation to the wider universe that's speculation with absolutely no evidence to the contrary so I wont go into that.

To safehands, No people haven't sinned less but that's where free will comes into it. People have a desire to sin. The bible says we're "Born into sin" But you can have a desire to turn from sin and that's where the Holy Spirit comes into it to do a miraculous work in the soul of a man to help him turn from sin if he truly repents (truly desires to not sin) but unfortunately most people love sin and that's why most people won't get into heaven but His sacrifice most definitely does work in those that do repent.

To Lantus, His sacrifice wasn't just the pain and suffering but also His will. He did the will of the Father. This is the blueprint to all mankind. God created us for His good pleasure. He didn't need us but out of love He created life and all things. We are expected to give up our will and do the will of God voluntarily. He isn't going to force us and given how bad we are at running our lives for a mere 80 years if we're lucky how do you think we'd do with eternal lives? We will all have eternal life after death in one of two places. Heaven doing the will of the Father or hell in eternal separation from the Father. God will give us better lives than we can provide for ourselves but if we think differently that's your "free will". You'd be wrong but still your prerogative.

Hope this helped.

God bless you all.
James.

P.S. Repent and believe in the gospel

Are you serious, so that's it then.

How many times do you repent ?

Safehands · 29-11-2013 11:15AM

Hi Jemiad, a very thorough answer from a Christian's perspective. Loads to digest, I have a lot of questions about it, which I hope I can post later, when I get a few moments to reflect.

jemlad · 29-11-2013 01:19PM

Yes that's it but it sounds easier than it really is because the repentance must be genuine and from the heart with a real desire to turn from sin. When/if you do truly repent, a work of the Holy Spirit begins and an ongoing process of sanctification(to be made Holy) begins where an inner desire to stop sinning starts to occur and because of this you will repent every day. Not because you have to but because you will want to. You become ashamed of the sins you commit everyday and you end up continually asking for help to turn from it. You become convicted of sin. Not in the sense of being declared guilty but in the sense of being convinced within yourself that what you are doing is wrong. Sadly a lot of people love sin and don't realise for the most part what even constitutes sin. People have this belief that there are only 10 commandments or they think they are good people and I'm not saying that to be condescending by any means because I was one of those people thinking I was a good person but the bible says there are none righteous in the world and all have sinned and the ONLY way to get into heaven is through Jesus Christ. There are no works or good deeds you can do and there's no such thing as purgatory whereby you are punished for sins to get into heaven. Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing. The apostle Paul was persecuting and killing Christians when he was saved. There is no sin too big that you can't be forgiven for.

Safehands · 29-11-2013 02:38PM

jemlad wrote: »

Yes that's it but it sounds easier than it really is because the repentance must be genuine and from the heart with a real desire to turn from sin. When/if you do truly repent, a work of the Holy Spirit begins and an ongoing process of sanctification(to be made Holy) begins where an inner desire to stop sinning starts to occur and because of this you will repent every day. Not because you have to but because you will want to. You become ashamed of the sins you commit everyday and you end up continually asking for help to turn from it. You become convicted of sin. Not in the sense of being declared guilty but in the sense of being convinced within yourself that what you are doing is wrong. Sadly a lot of people love sin and don't realise for the most part what even constitutes sin. People have this belief that there are only 10 commandments or they think they are good people and I'm not saying that to be condescending by any means because I was one of those people thinking I was a good person but the bible says there are none righteous in the world and all have sinned and the ONLY way to get into heaven is through Jesus Christ. There are no works or good deeds you can do and there's no such thing as purgatory whereby you are punished for sins to get into heaven. Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing. The apostle Paul was persecuting and killing Christians when he was saved. There is no sin too big that you can't be forgiven for.

Jemlad, Reading your post suggests that you are a person who reads the bible and takes it in a literal context. Is that right?

jemlad · 29-11-2013 03:21PM

Hi Safehands, I take the bible literally, figuratively and spiritually. Without believing parts of the bible literally the chance of repenting become impossible. You must take things like the man Jesus lived and that he lived a perfect life was crucified and rose again the third day. There are numerous things I could cite that must be taken absolutely literally.

Saying that I didn't come to these conclusions through "blind faith". Less than 2 years ago I had never even picked up a bible. But about four years ago I started to become disillusioned with this world and the horrendous things going on so began a tireless search for truth which led me through many different things like law, human existence, spirituality, even the medical profession (loooong story!) but through much research historically, theologically and most importantly philosophically which is using logic to come to a conclusion on unanswerable questions as in our inbuilt moral values for one, I found God. I'm a very logical thinker. I like things to make sense and the bible even insists that you question everything. Don't take anyone at their word, even those preaching the word of God, me included.

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

jemlad · 29-11-2013 05:03PM

Just as a quick follow up about believing Jesus lived and blind faith. There is tonnes of evidence supporting the existence of the man Jesus Christ. I've just had a quick look around the forums and noticed that people seem to ask "have you got proof" assuming that there is none and it can never be proven. Even basic research will show people he existed. It's historical fact. There isn't an ancient historian alive that would deny the existence of Jesus. There's loads of evidence. In fact there's more evidence for Jesus existence during that time period than just about any other historical figure of the time period. One such example is the Bible. Over 1600 different manuscripts have been found all over the continent hundreds of years apart and yet all identical in text. The scribes of the ancient world took their job very seriously and there's almost 6000 examples if you take into account fragments. Also there are questions to ponder. What happened 2013 years ago that was so significant that now the entire western world is united in this time line. Think about what sort of significant event would have to happen for the world to agree on this? BC and AD are significant clues. Do you really believe the majority of the world would agree to such a thing based on myth? Also from a legal standpoint. Almost all courts all over the western world have a hierarchical form. At the bottom you have persons, then statutes, then government followed by man, then God. The bible is the supreme authority in all western world courts. Fact. These are well educated intelligent men. Would they really accept this if they thought it was just something of ancient myth. Just a couple of examples of many...

lmaopml · 29-11-2013 11:58PM

Suffering is no doubt a difficult thing to understand in relation to the 'Love' that Christians will speak of....and how that relates to their view on the world etc.

We are all familiar with the Cross, we know that some see rather deeply and others only very vaguely what happened to Jesus that fateful day, and there is a difference between believers and non believers...but I guess it's difficult to imagine another persons suffering quite the same as we see our own, or indeed if we think it's not something that effects us at all, then we tend to dismiss it for many and varied reasons..and that's a cycle.

I guess, Christians have probably 'seen' the Cross in a more acute way - some even pray to have that 'understanding' and believe it or not think it's a 'gift' to receive the gift of understanding 'suffering'...

St. Paul spoke about it very eloquently for those willing to look up their Scripture. In fact, he spoke of his suffering and everything he gave up, like it was total sh*t compared to what he gained from the experience of knowing, proclaiming, and living and partaking in knowing the Cross. A much celebrated Apostle to the Gentiles speaks very eloquently on suffering - a hard topic and he gives 'hard' answers...but very many understood, and I think it's not impossible to pray for that kind of understanding, and receive it too. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit. Understanding.

Ambersky · 30-11-2013 10:30AM

I like the Jesus story but I cant stand the crucifixion. It was a barbaric practice and it doesn't make me feel any better that Jesus went through it.
I hate the fact that he went through it and I cant believe in any God that would want "payment" for human wrongdoing in the form of physical torture of anyone.
Expressions like he redeemed us, or he did it for our sins dont make any sense to me.
What was the matter with this God the Father, what kind of a person or entity is this that was feeling so angry or jealous or some other emotion he just couldn't get over it untill someone died horribly in order to make him feel better. Who or what kind of person feels better only when someone is tortured.
Im really not buying the God loved us so much that he held off the hand of his Father who was going to -What- annihilate us all again unless the died in excruciating pain and humiliation.
Thats not love thats a co dependent enabling relationship with a psychopath

I dont like this God, this angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God.
Id like even less the one described here

jemlad says
Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge

Why is it we reserve logic and language like that for religion and dont use it anywhere else.
If anyone used logic like that to justify murder, let alone a prolonged torture and murder as in a crucifixion they would be certified psychotic.
Why do people think this makes Christianity attractive this is a horrible father son relationship and a horrible relationship with humanity.

jemlad · 30-11-2013 06:58PM

Ambersky wrote: »

I like the Jesus story but I cant stand the crucifixion. It was a barbaric practice and it doesn't make me feel any better that Jesus went through it.
I hate the fact that he went through it and I cant believe in any God that would want "payment" for human wrongdoing in the form of physical torture of anyone.
Expressions like he redeemed us, or he did it for our sins dont make any sense to me.
What was the matter with this God the Father, what kind of a person or entity is this that was feeling so angry or jealous or some other emotion he just couldn't get over it untill someone died horribly in order to make him feel better. Who or what kind of person feels better only when someone is tortured.
Im really not buying the God loved us so much that he held off the hand of his Father who was going to -What- annihilate us all again unless the died in excruciating pain and humiliation.
Thats not love thats a co dependent enabling relationship with a psychopath

I dont like this God, this angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God.
Id like even less the one described here

Why is it we reserve logic and language like that for religion and dont use it anywhere else.
If anyone used logic like that to justify murder, let alone a prolonged torture and murder as in a crucifixion they would be certified psychotic.
Why do people think this makes Christianity attractive this is a horrible father son relationship and a horrible relationship with humanity.

Hi Ambersky, The entire bible needs to be read to get a complete understanding of the crucifixion. If parts are read like the crucifixion alone mixed with a part here or a part there it will never make any sense.

As far as God wanting physical torture from "someone", he didn't. He sacrificed Himself voluntarily. God the Father poured out his wrath on God the son because He didn't want to pour it out on everyone else on the planet. You need a fuller understanding of the Holy Trinity. Three separate personalities ONE God. In a post earlier I gave a comparison of a Judge that must past a sentence or he ceases to be a good judge and instead of sentencing the person that committed the crime the judge sentences himself. Jesus is the physical incarnation of God. God the Father is invisible and can't be looked upon by man. It is Jesus that will judge the world on judgement day. If you had a child and a car was coming towards the child and you jump in the way and are killed, and someone comes along and says "I don't know why that person jumped in front of that car and died a horrible death I think it's a disgusting thing to do!" That person obviously didn't see the child in front of the car and that's the same thing about reading the entire bible. You need to get the entire story.

You and I are evil people and deserve punishment. People may think they are decent people but we are not. As proof of this, would you be happy to have every thought you've ever had broadcast on national TV? That's what will happen on the judgement day, all peoples secrets will be brought to light.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

To say you don't like this God is to assume that you are better than God. God is perfect in every way. In ways we can't understand and that's where all people need to be careful. Just because you think something isn't right doesn't make it so. We all need to be able to show humility and accept that God knows better than us. People ask questions like why does God allow suffering, presupposing that suffering is unnecessary but how do you know? there's an old saying "there's no such thing as a great man that has never suffered." Would we really be able to appreciate joy and happiness if we don't experience misery and sadness?

Logic can't be reserved for certain situations ie;religion in this case. Logic is logic. It either makes sense or it doesn't. It's similar to when people say "well that's the truth as you see it but I don't see it that way". That a completely illogical statement. There is no such thing as truth for one and not for another. Truth is truth and it stands on its own regardless of what anyone thinks and I know the bible is Gods word and absolute truth. The crucifixion wasn't a justification of murder, it was a justifiable punishment for the sins mankind has committed and continue to do so to this day and a truly amazing "sacrifice" God made to save us.

God bless.

pa4 · 30-11-2013 09:59PM

Geomy wrote: »

Are you serious, so that's it then.

How many times do you repent ?

Once is enough if you're truly sorry for your sins. We have a merciful God. Confessing our sins can be difficult, but it brings us peace. We are sinners, and we need God’s forgiveness.

Ambersky · 30-11-2013 11:33PM

Only trouble is God is the oncoming car and yep I've read the bible and know this God has form.
This patriarchial tribal demanding obedience as proof of love on pain of death is not the only version of God.

jemlad · 01-12-2013 01:40AM

Ambersky wrote: »

Only trouble is God is the oncoming car and yep I've read the bible and know this God has form.
This patriarchial tribal demanding obedience as proof of love on pain of death is not the only version of God.

Hi Ambersky, Most of what I said was a genuine response to what you believe the bible says but what you think is untrue. You are picking up on an analogy to debunk the entire thing which accomplishes nothing. I'm not being insincere.

You said you read the bible but do you actually believe in God? Because I can't see how you came to the conclusion you did about the crucifixion and the sacrifice. There was no punishment to any individual. After reading everything I wrote in relation to "God sacrificing himself" do you still believe that He wanted a separate person to suffer that wasn't God? Do you not see how that relates to the Holy Trinity. You said you didn't like the idea of the crucifixion yet that is THE most important part of it. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son. He gave Himself.

You said that God wanted to punish someone because he's "an angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God" but let me try to expand a bit on God. God is perfect and as such He cannot look upon sin. If He did we would be destroyed. All He has to do is look!

This is what the bible means when it talks about separation from God. We are separated from Him because of our sin. He can no longer look upon us but God doesn't want us to be separated from Him so He had to create a way for people to come back to him. Now when I say for people to come back to Him I mean they have to want to. If you don't want to that's fine, it's not God that looses out it's you unfortunately. God created everything but He also created free will so you can do what you want and that includes living in sin which ultimately leads to eternal separation.

People's lives are terrible in this world, even the richest people on the planet, and it's not what God wanted when He created man but its what had to happen as this life is a learning experience. I could expand endlessly but I don't intend on writing a book this evening! (although i'm not far off)

You may think that a rich man is happy or that you are happy but what are you comparing it to? Other people? Have you any idea what heaven is like? The bible says that the poorest man in heaven will have more than the richest in the world.

God the father is a spirit so if you don't believe in spiritual things the things I say to you will sound foolish but I can assure you I take the bible very seriously and when It's studied it is very eye opening.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

One thing that people seem to ignore is the existence of the devil. The devil hates man because of the high position he was given and because the devil tempted Adam, Adam lost his place as ruler of the world and it was given over to satan. That's who rules this world now until Christ returns. So when that day arrives everyone living and dead will be sent to the place they chose in this life. Do you think this world is a good place to be? Are you happy to live, work 9-5 have an occasional holiday grow old and die or do you desire more?

Turn on the news for an hour and tell me of anything good you hear on it? All people have to do is look around you and it becomes obvious who's in charge. There's all these scapegoats like illuminati, bilderbergs, rothchild etc and if you do any bit of research you'll see all the very richest in the world most definitely believe in spiritual things but it just happens to be evil spirits. I'm expecting calls of "conspiracy theorist" on the way which are fantastically dismissive words as it justifies to the person saying it a reason not to actually check anything.

Have a look at this http://thelatterdays.blogspot.ie/2008/12/i-amsasha-fierce.html If you find it foolish that's fine but look a bit deeper into it yourself and you may be surprised because I thought it was a load of rubbish until I actually looked deeper. I never even picked up a bible or even gave God a second thought until 2 years ago so I know exactly where you're coming from and I say these things with all sincerity.

I'll try and expand on the analogy a bit further but I think you should read what I wrote as a whole and not focus on it alone. The car is the just and righteous punishment that must be served on the devil and those that love the world that he's created full of murder, rape, war, lies ad infinitum... the child is the children of God, those that repent of their sins and don't like this world and the person jumping in front of the car is Jesus saving them.

I would never mock or insult anyone and I only say these things because they are the truth and the truth stands by itself. I want you to question everything I say and dissect it and if I am in error I will be humble enough to admit it but all I'd like you to do is see where the rabbit hole goes...

God bless.

Safehands · 01-12-2013 01:22PM

jemlad wrote: »

Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing.

That is my whole point Jemlad. If he was God, then he knew that he would be going to rise again in three days time, then its not quite so monumental. If it were an ordinary man, then it would have been an amazing thing to do, although I don't really understand how Jesus doing what he did changed anything. Things were just as bad after he died. His followers butchered people in his name, because they were convinced it was the right thing to do. So if he was expecting to help mankind by dying, it didn't really work, did it?

Ambersky · 01-12-2013 01:33PM

This is the Christianity forum and I know the crucifixion as sacrifice and as a way of paying for human sins is a central tenant for many, if not all, Im not sure of that, in a way thats my question. I got involved in this issue again because I think it is so awful and I wasnt always able to see it like that.

I used to be a Christian, Catholic, born again and all, so yes I have read the bible and I guess it is my early spiritual experience and part of my formation. You know the way ex smokers can be the worst anti smokers well I guess Im a bit like that. Having seen a practice and a belief i.e. Christianity with new eyes, I cant not see the cracks in it anymore.

Jemlad you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this and I probably shouldnt write anymore out of respect for this forum and because it will just go around and around. I know you are being sincere, actually so am I but I also know what I am saying is upsetting for many Christians.

I think I know where you are coming from having been there. I think you and many other Christians dont know where I and people like me am coming from.
Its not like I'm worldly and you are spiritual or that I see things from a materialistic viewpoint and you are above that putting your faith in spiritual things. Thats the way Christians usually portray the relationship between Non Believers and Christians. Its also not like a person with faith rules out logic I would hope not anyway.

The crucifixion is a central reason for my non belief.
Its not that I dont believe it happened its because I believe it probably did happen.
The God I described earlier and that I said I didnt like is the one portrayed in the bible, indeed as perfect but that goes along with angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever. I can quote chapter and verse for every quality I mention. I dont care if God the father was satisfied by the death of an aspect of himself, god the son, because he couldn't look at "sin" and didn't require any more human deaths in order to get over himself.
I cant unsee that anyone needing someone else's death and torture, be it a human aspect of himself or the whole human race in flood or other apocalypse in order to get over disobedience or any other slight on his "perfection", is deranged. My eyes used to be cloudy with a kind of spiritual haze on this issue but I see it now and I cant unsee it.

A questioning mind is not necessarily a bad thing it has become my greatest ally.

“And your doubt can become a good quality if you train it. It must become knowing, it must become criticism. Ask it, whenever it wants to spoil something for you, why something is ugly, demand proofs from it, test it, and you will find it perhaps bewildered and embarrased, perhaps also protesting. But don't give in, insist on arguments, and act in this way, attentive and persistent, every single time, and the day will come when, instead of being a destroyer, it will become one of your best workers--perhaps the most intelligent of all the ones that are building your life.”

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1208289-briefe-an-einen-jungen-dichter

Safehands · 02-12-2013 08:40PM

Ambersky wrote: »

The God I described earlier and that I said I didnt like is the one portrayed in the bible, indeed as perfect but that goes along with angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever. I can quote chapter and verse for every quality I mention. I dont care if God the father was satisfied by the death of an aspect of himself, god the son, because he couldn't look at "sin" and didn't require any more human deaths in order to get over himself.
A questioning mind is not necessarily a bad thing it has become my greatest ally.

The fact that the bible describes God at various times as all these things, just proves that it is not accurate. Those things are the antithesis of love. So a loving God cannot act in an unloving way. (Please don't anybody tell me that he would kill or have killed a person because he loves them. That is just perverse logic)

tommy2bad · 02-12-2013 09:15PM

Safehands wrote: »

The fact that the bible describes God at various times as all these things, just proves that it is not accurate. Those things are the antithesis of love. So a loving God cannot act in an unloving way. (Please don't anybody tell me that he would kill or have killed a person because he loves them. That is just perverse logic)

Indeed killing someone because you love them is perverse, sacrificing yourself for them is what God did, not kill someone instead of them.
The cross isn't just god taking on human suffering to see what it's like or show that he now knows what we go through. The point is we sinned and the inevitable conciquences of this was death both physical and spiritual. Jesus, God made man, took the concequences on out behalf.
Jesus didn't just suffer a human death, that would not be all that spectacular, who of us wouldn't give up our life to save one of our children? and we don't get to respawn in 3 days (damn laggy server

) Jesus also went through separation from God, "Why have you forsaken me?" Descended into hell and rose again, making a path for us to follow.
Yeah He could have faked the pain and suffering, lied about the separation but then the job would not be done and we would be still subject to the concequences of our actions. Then again He would not have risen and ascended. The cross is where God and man are united, separated and reconciled. Not some penalty or ransom paid but a correction to our mistakes on our behalf not Gods. How could God be damaged by what we did, why would He need reparation?

Safehands · 02-12-2013 09:22PM

What did he say to the thief on the cross beside him? Was it not "Tonight you will be with me in paradise"?

tommy2bad · 02-12-2013 09:27PM

Safehands wrote: »

What did he say to the thief on the cross beside him? Was it not "Tonight you will be with me in paradise"?

That used to puzzle me a lot, if God died on the cross and stayed dead for 3 days, who was the thief hanging around with that night? Of course God isn't bound by time like us so it's a rhetorical flourish on Jesus behalf. tonight tomorrow 3 weeks later for the thief end of days was imediatly after dieing.

Safehands · 02-12-2013 09:57PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

That used to puzzle me a lot, if God died on the cross and stayed dead for 3 days, who was the thief hanging around with that night? Of course God isn't bound by time like us so it's a rhetorical flourish on Jesus behalf. tonight tomorrow 3 weeks later for the thief end of days was imediatly after dieing.

Sorry Tommy, If Jesus said "Truly I say to you today you will be in Paradise with me" then he could not have descended into Hell. To say it could mean anything is a cop out.

tommy2bad · 03-12-2013 12:27AM

Safehands wrote: »

Sorry Tommy, If Jesus said "Truly I say to you today you will be in Paradise with me" then he could not have descended into Hell. To say it could mean anything is a cop out.

Thing is Jesus was God and God is not bound by time. We as time bound creatures have difficulty with the notion that time is a property of this universe.
It either shows that Jesus was God or so deluded that he thought he was God. either way it isn't a flaw in the story.

Safehands · 04-12-2013 01:05AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thing is Jesus was God and God is not bound by time. We as time bound creatures have difficulty with the notion that time is a property of this universe.
It either shows that Jesus was God or so deluded that he thought he was God. either way it isn't a flaw in the story.

Hang on a minute, you are just proving my point. He was God, so time or pain meant nothing to him. You cannot have it every way, God when it suits your story about time or man when it suits another story about suffering and pain.

tommy2bad · 04-12-2013 01:50AM

Safehands wrote: »

Hang on a minute, you are just proving my point. He was God, so time or pain meant nothing to him. You cannot have it every way, God when it suits your story about time or man when it suits another story about suffering and pain.

Woah! where did I say He wasn't God or wasn't man. The whole point of the incarnation is that He was both. Completely man, living, breathing, eating and ****ting and aching man. Not an avatar or some apparition that looked like a man. He was also God completely all powerful and all loving. It only works that way.

duncli1628 · 08-12-2013 10:48PM

Hi! Had read some of the posts and there was a lot of speculation as to Jesus's body and Him facing what amount of pain. My view is...all this will remain speculation until we meet Him face to face. Fact is He did die on the cross for our sins,...and if anyone had missed this...our God is a fair God! Our sins would have to be paid in full! No cheating or cutting corners. The Enemy with knowledge of who Jesus is will certainly make sure of that!
Remember, Luke 22:44.."And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground". Strong as Jesus is(facing Pharisees, mobs etc.) had asked if possible to have "the cup" taken away from Him. So, it's unimaginable pain!:(

Safehands · 09-12-2013 12:45AM

duncli1628 wrote: »

Remember, Luke 22:44.."And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground". Strong as Jesus is(facing Pharisees, mobs etc.) had asked if possible to have "the cup" taken away from Him. So, it's unimaginable pain!:(

Another conundrum. I believe he made that statement in the garden of Gethsemane, when he went into a quiet part of the garden to pray. His guards were asleep, so who heard him say it? I think it is probably what the writers of the bible thought he would have said without anyone witnessing it.

pauldla · 09-12-2013 08:16AM

Safehands wrote: »

Another conundrum. I believe he made that statement in the garden of Gethsemane, when he went into a quiet part of the garden to pray. His guards were asleep, so who heard him say it? I think it is probably what the writers of the bible thought he would have said without anyone witnessing it.

You mean, the authors of the Bible put words in Gods mouth?

Safehands · 09-12-2013 11:05AM

pauldla wrote: »

You mean, the authors of the Bible put words in Gods mouth?

Nuclear option. If all else fails to make sense, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit;)

tommy2bad · 09-12-2013 11:19AM

Safehands wrote: »

Another conundrum. I believe he made that statement in the garden of Gethsemane, when he went into a quiet part of the garden to pray. His guards were asleep, so who heard him say it? I think it is probably what the writers of the bible thought he would have said without anyone witnessing it.

You are presuming they were the only ones their. I'd have to read the whole thing again and their are a couple of accounts to go through but I get the impression that their might have been more than the name actors at the garden, or I could be mixing it up with Mell Gibson's version.

Safehands · 09-12-2013 12:04PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

You are presuming they were the only ones their. I'd have to read the whole thing again and their are a couple of accounts to go through but I get the impression that their might have been more than the name actors at the garden, or I could be mixing it up with Mell Gibson's version.

I'd say it's just an imbellishment to a nice story, not actually true though.

Suffering on the cross

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