Suffering on the cross

Safehands

The story of Jesus on the cross has always intrigued me. Having rough nails driven through the wrists or palms would shatter bones. Having more nails driven through a person's feet would be equally destructive of bones flesh and ligaments. It must have been excruciatingly painful. But Jesus was God. He could raise people from the dead. He could mend blindness, broken limbs and any other ailment he chose to. So is it not possible that he was able to switch off the pain. He would have had the power to do anything with his body, so driving nails into his hands would not necessarily cause him the same pain as it would to a normal human being.

thehouses

Look up Sabellianism, your idea is similar in a way.

Manach

My off the cuff understanding, that the suffering on the cross was not only the physical and spiritual suffering by Jesus alone - but an action that took on board that of past, current and future humanity.

martinedwards

he had the power to jump down off the cross and land on the ground with all the wounds fully healed, but he chose not to as a sacrifice to atone for OUR sins.

the Suffering Christ is a RC theology. I've never heard it preached in a Protestant church that he suffered all OUR punishment, rather that he suffered because of our need for punishment if that differentiation makes sense?

still, I've heard it preached that this is why RC churches have Christ still on the cross in their imagery, Christ is suffering on the cross for our sins..... whereas Prod churches have the empty cross to signify the emphasis on the risen Christ (which of course the RC church believes too, before someone yells at me!!)

Safehands

martinedwards wrote: »

he had the power to jump down off the cross and land on the ground with all the wounds fully healed, but he chose not to as a sacrifice to atone for OUR sins.

If he was human, with all these powers, he wasn't a normal human. A natural human reaction would be to turn off the pain, if possible. How do we know he didn't? I never read any accounts of his expression of pain. Anybody who had those dreadful things done to them would scream in pain, a normal reaction. Any depiction I have every seen showed a man with a serene look on his face as those nails were been driven in. That suggests he was not actually feeling the pain.

martinedwards

to be fair those were probably artist's impressions......

cameras hadn't been invented

Safehands

martinedwards wrote: »

to be fair those were probably artist's impressions......cameras hadn't been invented

Of course. He didn't have blond hair either! But did he switch off the pain, do we know? If he spoke at all on the cross, other than expressing extreme pain, then we can assume he was acting in a supernatural way. No human would be capable of discussion in those circumstances.

martinedwards

Any descriptions I've read of Crucifixion are horrifying.

bear in mind that it was pretty common in those days..... Nero had a party once and had an avenue of crucified Christians lining the way, and just so that the guests could see the way, he had them doused in pitch and set alight.

and the REASON that the legs were broken was to speed up the death so that no-one would be still alive on the crosses into the Sabbath, because people could survive for several days. Jesus's side was pierced by the spear because he was clearly already dead, and this was surprising to the soldiers on duty.

Was he pain free on the cross?

far from it.

was he having conversations?

hardly.

"Pete, look after my mum" was the height of it.....

but then there was the other two crucified along with him.....

they were chatting away, with one insulting Jesus, and the other one saying shut up, leave him alone. And we don't apportion any supernatural powers to THEM, do we?

SoulandForm

Very interesting question-my understanding is that Christ had not a normal fallen body like we have but the type of unfallen glorified body that Adam and Eve had before the fall; but He willed to assume the physical conditions of our fallen ones. The Apostles saw His body as it actually was on Mount Tabor. Coming to this realization really deepened my appreciation of Christ's work and gave me a tiny peek at how hellish and un-natural life in this sick and fallen world must have been for Him.

Safehands wrote: »

The story of Jesus on the cross has always intrigued me. Having rough nails driven through the wrists or palms would shatter bones. Having more nails driven through a person's feet would be equally destructive of bones flesh and ligaments. It must have been excruciatingly painful. But Jesus was God. He could raise people from the dead. He could mend blindness, broken limbs and any other ailment he chose to. So is it not possible that he was able to switch off the pain. He would have had the power to do anything with his body, so driving nails into his hands would not necessarily cause him the same pain as it would to a normal human being.

SoulandForm

Calvin had the weird idea that Christ's soul when it went to hell actually suffered there all the punishment due to the elect which thankfully is not something that most Christians hold.

In many (admittedly on the Anglo-Catholic side of things) Anglican parishes in England and Wales you will find Crucifixs and you see them in nearly Lutheran Churches in Europe (the USA is kind of different in this regard).

Most of the really amazing music to do with Christ's sufferings was made by Lutherans.

Than again a lot of post-modern day RCs are far from fond of such imagery.

I dont think its a clear cut as you suggest.

You can believe in Justification by Faith and Salvation by Grace alone and still have Crucifixs. Infact I find the rarity of them in Irish Protestantism a bit wrong.

martinedwards wrote: »

he had the power to jump down off the cross and land on the ground with all the wounds fully healed, but he chose not to as a sacrifice to atone for OUR sins.

the Suffering Christ is a RC theology. I've never heard it preached in a Protestant church that he suffered all OUR punishment, rather that he suffered because of our need for punishment if that differentiation makes sense?

still, I've heard it preached that this is why RC churches have Christ still on the cross in their imagery, Christ is suffering on the cross for our sins..... whereas Prod churches have the empty cross to signify the emphasis on the risen Christ (which of course the RC church believes too, before someone yells at me!!)

Safehands

SoulandForm wrote: »

Very interesting question-my understanding is that Christ had not a normal fallen body like we have but the type of unfallen glorified body that Adam and Eve had before the fall; but He willed to assume the physical conditions of our fallen ones. The Apostles saw His body as it actually was on Mount Tabor. Coming to this realization really deepened my appreciation of Christ's work and gave me a tiny peek at how hellish and un-natural life in this sick and fallen world must have been for Him.

Where does that information come from? How do we know he willed this body? The pain suffered must have been so extreme that we could not really imagine it. I broke my leg a couple of times and the pain was intolerable. I know therefore that any man with normal feelings could not have the weight of his body on feet and hands with broken bones and have any rational thought, let alone talk to people on the crosses beside him. In fact, that level of pain would most likely, cause a person to pass out. I know that these are very basic, non theological opinions, but that does not make them any less valid.

SoulandForm

Well He didnt have original sin did He?

The nature of His body flows naturally from that.

I read it first in a book by Vladimir Lossky- an important Russian theologian.

Safehands wrote: »

Where does that information come from? How do we know he willed this body? The pain suffered must have been so extreme that we could not really imagine it. I broke my leg a couple of times and the pain was intolerable. I know therefore that any man with normal feelings could not have the weight of his body on feet and hands with broken bones and have any rational thought, let alone talk to people on the crosses beside him. In fact, that level of pain would most likely, cause a person to pass out. I know that these are very basic, non theological opinions, but that does not make them any less valid.

Safehands

SoulandForm wrote: »

Well He didnt have original sin did He?

The nature of His body flows naturally from that.

So he didn't feel the pain a normal man would have felt! that is all I am saying.

SoulandForm

Safehands wrote: »

So he didn't feel the pain a normal man would have felt! that is all I am saying.

He did and more so not naturally but because He personally willed it.

Safehands

SoulandForm wrote: »

He did and more so not naturally but because He personally willed it.

Hang on a bit. If he could will himself to feel more pain, he could just as easily have willed himself to feel no pain. The evidence of him chatting to others suggests that he was not really in extreme pain. There is no evidence for your synopsis I'm afraid.

SoulandForm

Safehands wrote: »

Hang on a bit. If he could will himself to feel more pain, he could just as easily have willed himself to feel no pain. The evidence of him chatting to others suggests that he was not really in extreme pain. There is no evidence for your synopsis I'm afraid.

Oh He felt the pain and could chat to other because as I said He willed to feel the pain and willed to chat to others- and also proclaim some Psalms.

Safehands

SoulandForm wrote: »

Oh He felt the pain and could chat to other because as I said He willed to feel the pain and willed to chat to others- and also proclaim some Psalms.

So he was acting as God, not man. Where is that coming from?

martinedwards

Safehands wrote: »

The evidence of him chatting to others suggests that he was not really in extreme pain.

the others were chatting.

as I believe I mentioned.

Balaclava1991

Since Jesus was God why did he have to suffer? Was he sacrificing himself to himself? What for? Since he was all powerful couldn't he just wipe away sin without having to go through the needless bother of being born, living for 33 years on earth, then dying a hideous death? Since Revelation preaches that at the end of the world bowls of wrath will be poured out, seals will be broken and trumpets will blow unleashing plagues on the earth and Jesus will personally lead his army into battle against Satan why go through the whole bother of the crucifixion then?
Until the age of exploration most of the world did not know about Jesus which means that generations and generations of millions of people lived and died never hearing of the crucifixion.
Surely if Jesus had been Chinese his sacrifice would have made a bigger impact on history and saved more souls?
When you consider that the Earth might not be the only planet with intelligent life and that human radio broadcasts have at a minimum only reached about 100 light years into space that means that the potentially infinite trillions of individuals on infinite billions of planets in our galaxy and universe have not heard nor will ever heard about the ONLY Son of God who lived between 1 AD and 33AD in ancient Israel on Planet.
So not only did Jesus endure appalling suffering when a far easier alternative solution to defeating evil was available - Satan can simply disappear instantly if God wills it - he also has been very poor about choosing an efficient method of letting humanity and the wider universe knowing about him and having a possibility of saving themselves.

Safehands

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Since Jesus was God why did he have to suffer? Was he sacrificing himself to himself? What for? Since he was all powerful couldn't he just wipe away sin without having to go through the needless bother of being born, living for 33 years on earth, then dying a hideous death?

There is an awful lot of nonsense talked about this. It is a nice thought that Jesus died for our sins, but did it make much difference? Did man sin less because Jesus did that? I think that in fact man has sinned a lot more, unfortunately, because of religion. Jesus, being God, must have known that man was going to do really nasty things in his name. So why did he go ahead and still die if it was in the name of wiping out sin? It didn't really work did it?

Lantus

A few posters have used the word sacrifice when they refer to the events surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus. This has always puzzled me as Jesus came back to life in perfect health a few days later and then ascended into heaven. Where was the sacrifice?

SoulandForm

Lantus wrote: »

A few posters have used the word sacrifice when they refer to the events surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus. This has always puzzled me as Jesus came back to life in perfect health a few days later and then ascended into heaven. Where was the sacrifice?

His whole life on earth was a Sacrifice.

Safehands

SoulandForm wrote: »

His whole life on earth was a Sacrifice.

How can anybody be sacrificing anything unless they lose something. If I sacrifice my life, I die. I don't come back! If I know I am going to be ok in three days time then it really isn't so much a sacrifice as a piece of showmanship really. If I'm going to be executed in a painful way, but the pain can be turned off, it isn't quite as bad, is it?

Manach

In spite of the high level of subjective proof being demanded, if you consider the historical records (in items called books), crucifixation was considered one the more darker of Roman punishments and added that to the fact that Jesus passed through the hands of some of viler dregs of the Roman legions who were posted to Jerusalem would not leave many people with the ability to chat.

Lantus

SoulandForm wrote: »

His whole life on earth was a Sacrifice.

Possibly, but it is hard to imagine an immortal being seeing it that way. The time span spent as a person would be nothing but a millisecond of time compared to the eternity of your overall existence. Again he knew almost certainly without any doubt that once done he would return to an immortal state of being afterwards. He may of endured suffering but as he ultimately lost nothing then nothing was sacrificed. How do others see it?

Safehands

Manach wrote: »

In spite of the high level of subjective proof being demanded, if you consider the historical records (in items called books), crucifixation was considered one the more darker of Roman punishments and added that to the fact that Jesus passed through the hands of some of viler dregs of the Roman legions who were posted to Jerusalem would not leave many people with the ability to chat.

Quite right, but Jesus was also God and as such he did not necessarily suffer on the cross as others did.

martinedwards

you really have a bee in your bonnet about this doncha?:p

Ok Jesus was fully God and fully Human.

we don't know if he turned off the pain (as he could have, being God and all that) but no theologian (protestant or RC) has ever suggested it.

the idea that his talking on the cross proves he was pain free is wrong because the thieves crucified alongside him were talking.

in the OT, sin required a blood sacrifice.

read the OT, the temple was like an abattoir, with blood being sprinkled over the people...... (yuk)

Jesus was the sacrificial lamb. just like the lambs and bulls used for sacrifice, "without defect"... in his case without sin.

his blood had to be spilled in (lethal) sacrifice

yes, he "got better" but the death occurred so the sacrifice stands.

Safehands

martinedwards wrote: »

you really have a bee in your bonnet about this doncha?

Do you not think its an important issue?

martinedwards

sorry, I was expanding the post when you replied. I think its a VERY important issue, but you don't seem to be reading my responses.......

Safehands

martinedwards wrote: »

you really have a bee in your bonnet about this doncha?:p

Ok Jesus was fully God and fully Human.

we don't know if he turned off the pain (as he could have, being God and all that) but no theologian (protestant or RC) has ever suggested it.

the idea that his talking on the cross proves he was pain free is wrong because the thieves crucified alongside him were talking.

in the OT, sin required a blood sacrifice.

read the OT, the temple was like an abattoir, with blood being sprinkled over the people...... (yuk)

Jesus was the sacrificial lamb. just like the lambs and bulls used for sacrifice, "without defect"... in his case without sin.

his blood had to be spilled in (lethal) sacrifice

yes, he "got better" but the death occurred so the sacrifice stands.

It seems to me that the whole thing is really metaphorical, like a lot of the events in his life.
We are told he suffered, and if he was a mere man that would be true in spades, but he was much more than a mere human.
We are told he rose from the dead. But when he rose his injuries were healed and therefore he didn't rise as a man. He rose as a deity. If that is true, he didn't really "come back" from the dead. He came back as some form of supernatural entity, a very good one, no doubt, but not as man. Therefore can it be truly stated that Jesus the man, died and rose again? I don't think so.

shamreez

I guess you can give a call to Mel Gibson and ask the question coz the other option (asking the church) might only give you their latest version.

Safehands

shamreez wrote: »

I guess you can give a call to Mel Gibson and ask the question coz the other option (asking the church) might only give you their latest version.

I'd like to hear some sensible argument from someone who is not just giving a vague hypothetical answer.

jemlad

Yes Jesus suffered excruciating pain on the cross. In Psalm 22 it gives you a bit of an idea of what He was going through.

Psalm 22 14-18
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment."

None of his bones were broken as this was one of the prophecies that had to be fulfilled.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken"

Loads of His bones were dislocated and from personal experience of my kneecap taking a sudden trip around to the side of my leg while playing football I can assure you I've never experienced anything like it! You just lie there and scream until an ambulance arrives!

Also he was scourged and his beard was pulled out by the roots

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

As far as Jesus turning off the pain, that didn't happen as Jesus was both God and Man. Two distinct natures. Godhood and Manhood, they did not mix but were both present. And God is three distinct persons and one God. It's hard to get our head around it as we are "only human". It's a thread on its own and I could write for days on it but in short The Holy Trinity. Three distinct personalities one God. Jesus came into the world to live as a man experiencing all the things man experiences as in hunger, thirst, weariness etc and especially temptation of sin. He was also born of a woman and marvelled at things and cried. Soulandform said that Jesus willed to have more pain. Jesus didn't will anything. He did His Fathers will. He was the Son of God. God the Father stayed in heaven communicating with his son to do His will unto death. What better way to exact perfect judgement on the world than to experience all the things man experiences.

As far as Calvin and his "weird idea" its not really that weird. Not that He went to hell but He was punished for each individual that is "saved". Not every single person as catholic doctrine will have you believe but for those that repent (turn from sin or have a desire to turn from sin) most people will still go to hell as the bible says

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

To balaclava1991. Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge. Satan knowing this deceived mankind into sin due to his hatred of man and God found a way to save man without contravening that perfection by sacrificing that which is perfect so that a man can receive Jesus perfect record to get into heaven as Jesus took the punishment that we deserve. An analogy would be of a murderer, for example, before a judge. If the judge let him off without punishment he wouldn't be much of a judge. Instead, as justice must be served the judge takes the punishment for the murderer. Also God can't just get rid of satan quite so simply. Yes it's not out of his power but God created free will so if He was to destroy satan or anyone the moment they sin it takes away free will by default, which is a good thing as you and I would be dead a long time ago by now! And in relation to the wider universe that's speculation with absolutely no evidence to the contrary so I wont go into that.

To safehands, No people haven't sinned less but that's where free will comes into it. People have a desire to sin. The bible says we're "Born into sin" But you can have a desire to turn from sin and that's where the Holy Spirit comes into it to do a miraculous work in the soul of a man to help him turn from sin if he truly repents (truly desires to not sin) but unfortunately most people love sin and that's why most people won't get into heaven but His sacrifice most definitely does work in those that do repent.

To Lantus, His sacrifice wasn't just the pain and suffering but also His will. He did the will of the Father. This is the blueprint to all mankind. God created us for His good pleasure. He didn't need us but out of love He created life and all things. We are expected to give up our will and do the will of God voluntarily. He isn't going to force us and given how bad we are at running our lives for a mere 80 years if we're lucky how do you think we'd do with eternal lives? We will all have eternal life after death in one of two places. Heaven doing the will of the Father or hell in eternal separation from the Father. God will give us better lives than we can provide for ourselves but if we think differently that's your "free will". You'd be wrong but still your prerogative.

Hope this helped.

God bless you all.
James.

P.S. Repent and believe in the gospel

Geomy

jemlad wrote: »

Yes Jesus suffered excruciating pain on the cross. In Psalm 22 it gives you a bit of an idea of what He was going through.

Psalm 22 14-18
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment."

None of his bones were broken as this was one of the prophecies that had to be fulfilled.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken"

Loads of His bones were dislocated and from personal experience of my kneecap taking a sudden trip around to the side of my leg while playing football I can assure you I've never experienced anything like it! You just lie there and scream until an ambulance arrives!

Also he was scourged and his beard was pulled out by the roots

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

As far as Jesus turning off the pain, that didn't happen as Jesus was both God and Man. Two distinct natures. Godhood and Manhood, they did not mix but were both present. And God is three distinct persons and one God. It's hard to get our head around it as we are "only human". It's a thread on its own and I could write for days on it but in short The Holy Trinity. Three distinct personalities one God. Jesus came into the world to live as a man experiencing all the things man experiences as in hunger, thirst, weariness etc and especially temptation of sin. He was also born of a woman and marvelled at things and cried. Soulandform said that Jesus willed to have more pain. Jesus didn't will anything. He did His Fathers will. He was the Son of God. God the Father stayed in heaven communicating with his son to do His will unto death. What better way to exact perfect judgement on the world than to experience all the things man experiences.

As far as Calvin and his "weird idea" its not really that weird. Not that He went to hell but He was punished for each individual that is "saved". Not every single person as catholic doctrine will have you believe but for those that repent (turn from sin or have a desire to turn from sin) most people will still go to hell as the bible says

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

To balaclava1991. Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge. Satan knowing this deceived mankind into sin due to his hatred of man and God found a way to save man without contravening that perfection by sacrificing that which is perfect so that a man can receive Jesus perfect record to get into heaven as Jesus took the punishment that we deserve. An analogy would be of a murderer, for example, before a judge. If the judge let him off without punishment he wouldn't be much of a judge. Instead, as justice must be served the judge takes the punishment for the murderer. Also God can't just get rid of satan quite so simply. Yes it's not out of his power but God created free will so if He was to destroy satan or anyone the moment they sin it takes away free will by default, which is a good thing as you and I would be dead a long time ago by now! And in relation to the wider universe that's speculation with absolutely no evidence to the contrary so I wont go into that.

To safehands, No people haven't sinned less but that's where free will comes into it. People have a desire to sin. The bible says we're "Born into sin" But you can have a desire to turn from sin and that's where the Holy Spirit comes into it to do a miraculous work in the soul of a man to help him turn from sin if he truly repents (truly desires to not sin) but unfortunately most people love sin and that's why most people won't get into heaven but His sacrifice most definitely does work in those that do repent.

To Lantus, His sacrifice wasn't just the pain and suffering but also His will. He did the will of the Father. This is the blueprint to all mankind. God created us for His good pleasure. He didn't need us but out of love He created life and all things. We are expected to give up our will and do the will of God voluntarily. He isn't going to force us and given how bad we are at running our lives for a mere 80 years if we're lucky how do you think we'd do with eternal lives? We will all have eternal life after death in one of two places. Heaven doing the will of the Father or hell in eternal separation from the Father. God will give us better lives than we can provide for ourselves but if we think differently that's your "free will". You'd be wrong but still your prerogative.

Hope this helped.

God bless you all.
James.

P.S. Repent and believe in the gospel

Are you serious, so that's it then.

How many times do you repent ?

Safehands

Hi Jemiad, a very thorough answer from a Christian's perspective. Loads to digest, I have a lot of questions about it, which I hope I can post later, when I get a few moments to reflect.

jemlad

Yes that's it but it sounds easier than it really is because the repentance must be genuine and from the heart with a real desire to turn from sin. When/if you do truly repent, a work of the Holy Spirit begins and an ongoing process of sanctification(to be made Holy) begins where an inner desire to stop sinning starts to occur and because of this you will repent every day. Not because you have to but because you will want to. You become ashamed of the sins you commit everyday and you end up continually asking for help to turn from it. You become convicted of sin. Not in the sense of being declared guilty but in the sense of being convinced within yourself that what you are doing is wrong. Sadly a lot of people love sin and don't realise for the most part what even constitutes sin. People have this belief that there are only 10 commandments or they think they are good people and I'm not saying that to be condescending by any means because I was one of those people thinking I was a good person but the bible says there are none righteous in the world and all have sinned and the ONLY way to get into heaven is through Jesus Christ. There are no works or good deeds you can do and there's no such thing as purgatory whereby you are punished for sins to get into heaven. Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing. The apostle Paul was persecuting and killing Christians when he was saved. There is no sin too big that you can't be forgiven for.

Safehands

jemlad wrote: »

Yes that's it but it sounds easier than it really is because the repentance must be genuine and from the heart with a real desire to turn from sin. When/if you do truly repent, a work of the Holy Spirit begins and an ongoing process of sanctification(to be made Holy) begins where an inner desire to stop sinning starts to occur and because of this you will repent every day. Not because you have to but because you will want to. You become ashamed of the sins you commit everyday and you end up continually asking for help to turn from it. You become convicted of sin. Not in the sense of being declared guilty but in the sense of being convinced within yourself that what you are doing is wrong. Sadly a lot of people love sin and don't realise for the most part what even constitutes sin. People have this belief that there are only 10 commandments or they think they are good people and I'm not saying that to be condescending by any means because I was one of those people thinking I was a good person but the bible says there are none righteous in the world and all have sinned and the ONLY way to get into heaven is through Jesus Christ. There are no works or good deeds you can do and there's no such thing as purgatory whereby you are punished for sins to get into heaven. Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing. The apostle Paul was persecuting and killing Christians when he was saved. There is no sin too big that you can't be forgiven for.

Jemlad, Reading your post suggests that you are a person who reads the bible and takes it in a literal context. Is that right?

jemlad

Hi Safehands, I take the bible literally, figuratively and spiritually. Without believing parts of the bible literally the chance of repenting become impossible. You must take things like the man Jesus lived and that he lived a perfect life was crucified and rose again the third day. There are numerous things I could cite that must be taken absolutely literally.

Saying that I didn't come to these conclusions through "blind faith". Less than 2 years ago I had never even picked up a bible. But about four years ago I started to become disillusioned with this world and the horrendous things going on so began a tireless search for truth which led me through many different things like law, human existence, spirituality, even the medical profession (loooong story!) but through much research historically, theologically and most importantly philosophically which is using logic to come to a conclusion on unanswerable questions as in our inbuilt moral values for one, I found God. I'm a very logical thinker. I like things to make sense and the bible even insists that you question everything. Don't take anyone at their word, even those preaching the word of God, me included.

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

jemlad

Just as a quick follow up about believing Jesus lived and blind faith. There is tonnes of evidence supporting the existence of the man Jesus Christ. I've just had a quick look around the forums and noticed that people seem to ask "have you got proof" assuming that there is none and it can never be proven. Even basic research will show people he existed. It's historical fact. There isn't an ancient historian alive that would deny the existence of Jesus. There's loads of evidence. In fact there's more evidence for Jesus existence during that time period than just about any other historical figure of the time period. One such example is the Bible. Over 1600 different manuscripts have been found all over the continent hundreds of years apart and yet all identical in text. The scribes of the ancient world took their job very seriously and there's almost 6000 examples if you take into account fragments. Also there are questions to ponder. What happened 2013 years ago that was so significant that now the entire western world is united in this time line. Think about what sort of significant event would have to happen for the world to agree on this? BC and AD are significant clues. Do you really believe the majority of the world would agree to such a thing based on myth? Also from a legal standpoint. Almost all courts all over the western world have a hierarchical form. At the bottom you have persons, then statutes, then government followed by man, then God. The bible is the supreme authority in all western world courts. Fact. These are well educated intelligent men. Would they really accept this if they thought it was just something of ancient myth. Just a couple of examples of many...

lmaopml

Suffering is no doubt a difficult thing to understand in relation to the 'Love' that Christians will speak of....and how that relates to their view on the world etc.

We are all familiar with the Cross, we know that some see rather deeply and others only very vaguely what happened to Jesus that fateful day, and there is a difference between believers and non believers...but I guess it's difficult to imagine another persons suffering quite the same as we see our own, or indeed if we think it's not something that effects us at all, then we tend to dismiss it for many and varied reasons..and that's a cycle.


I guess, Christians have probably 'seen' the Cross in a more acute way - some even pray to have that 'understanding' and believe it or not think it's a 'gift' to receive the gift of understanding 'suffering'...

St. Paul spoke about it very eloquently for those willing to look up their Scripture. In fact, he spoke of his suffering and everything he gave up, like it was total sh*t compared to what he gained from the experience of knowing, proclaiming, and living and partaking in knowing the Cross. A much celebrated Apostle to the Gentiles speaks very eloquently on suffering - a hard topic and he gives 'hard' answers...but very many understood, and I think it's not impossible to pray for that kind of understanding, and receive it too. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit. Understanding.

Ambersky

I like the Jesus story but I cant stand the crucifixion. It was a barbaric practice and it doesn't make me feel any better that Jesus went through it.
I hate the fact that he went through it and I cant believe in any God that would want "payment" for human wrongdoing in the form of physical torture of anyone.
Expressions like he redeemed us, or he did it for our sins dont make any sense to me.
What was the matter with this God the Father, what kind of a person or entity is this that was feeling so angry or jealous or some other emotion he just couldn't get over it untill someone died horribly in order to make him feel better. Who or what kind of person feels better only when someone is tortured.
Im really not buying the God loved us so much that he held off the hand of his Father who was going to -What- annihilate us all again unless the died in excruciating pain and humiliation.
Thats not love thats a co dependent enabling relationship with a psychopath

I dont like this God, this angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God.
Id like even less the one described here

jemlad says
Jesus had to suffer because God loves mankind and He didn't want to wipe them out again as He did in the time of Noah. The scariest thing about God is that He is good. Perfect in fact. So perfect that he must destroy anyone that sins even once or He ceases to be a perfect judge

Why is it we reserve logic and language like that for religion and dont use it anywhere else.
If anyone used logic like that to justify murder, let alone a prolonged torture and murder as in a crucifixion they would be certified psychotic.
Why do people think this makes Christianity attractive this is a horrible father son relationship and a horrible relationship with humanity.

jemlad

Ambersky wrote: »

I like the Jesus story but I cant stand the crucifixion. It was a barbaric practice and it doesn't make me feel any better that Jesus went through it.
I hate the fact that he went through it and I cant believe in any God that would want "payment" for human wrongdoing in the form of physical torture of anyone.
Expressions like he redeemed us, or he did it for our sins dont make any sense to me.
What was the matter with this God the Father, what kind of a person or entity is this that was feeling so angry or jealous or some other emotion he just couldn't get over it untill someone died horribly in order to make him feel better. Who or what kind of person feels better only when someone is tortured.
Im really not buying the God loved us so much that he held off the hand of his Father who was going to -What- annihilate us all again unless the died in excruciating pain and humiliation.
Thats not love thats a co dependent enabling relationship with a psychopath

I dont like this God, this angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God.
Id like even less the one described here

Why is it we reserve logic and language like that for religion and dont use it anywhere else.
If anyone used logic like that to justify murder, let alone a prolonged torture and murder as in a crucifixion they would be certified psychotic.
Why do people think this makes Christianity attractive this is a horrible father son relationship and a horrible relationship with humanity.

Hi Ambersky, The entire bible needs to be read to get a complete understanding of the crucifixion. If parts are read like the crucifixion alone mixed with a part here or a part there it will never make any sense.

As far as God wanting physical torture from "someone", he didn't. He sacrificed Himself voluntarily. God the Father poured out his wrath on God the son because He didn't want to pour it out on everyone else on the planet. You need a fuller understanding of the Holy Trinity. Three separate personalities ONE God. In a post earlier I gave a comparison of a Judge that must past a sentence or he ceases to be a good judge and instead of sentencing the person that committed the crime the judge sentences himself. Jesus is the physical incarnation of God. God the Father is invisible and can't be looked upon by man. It is Jesus that will judge the world on judgement day. If you had a child and a car was coming towards the child and you jump in the way and are killed, and someone comes along and says "I don't know why that person jumped in front of that car and died a horrible death I think it's a disgusting thing to do!" That person obviously didn't see the child in front of the car and that's the same thing about reading the entire bible. You need to get the entire story.

You and I are evil people and deserve punishment. People may think they are decent people but we are not. As proof of this, would you be happy to have every thought you've ever had broadcast on national TV? That's what will happen on the judgement day, all peoples secrets will be brought to light.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

To say you don't like this God is to assume that you are better than God. God is perfect in every way. In ways we can't understand and that's where all people need to be careful. Just because you think something isn't right doesn't make it so. We all need to be able to show humility and accept that God knows better than us. People ask questions like why does God allow suffering, presupposing that suffering is unnecessary but how do you know? there's an old saying "there's no such thing as a great man that has never suffered." Would we really be able to appreciate joy and happiness if we don't experience misery and sadness?

Logic can't be reserved for certain situations ie;religion in this case. Logic is logic. It either makes sense or it doesn't. It's similar to when people say "well that's the truth as you see it but I don't see it that way". That a completely illogical statement. There is no such thing as truth for one and not for another. Truth is truth and it stands on its own regardless of what anyone thinks and I know the bible is Gods word and absolute truth. The crucifixion wasn't a justification of murder, it was a justifiable punishment for the sins mankind has committed and continue to do so to this day and a truly amazing "sacrifice" God made to save us.

God bless.

pa4

Geomy wrote: »

Are you serious, so that's it then.

How many times do you repent ?

Once is enough if you're truly sorry for your sins. We have a merciful God. Confessing our sins can be difficult, but it brings us peace. We are sinners, and we need God’s forgiveness.

Ambersky

Only trouble is God is the oncoming car and yep I've read the bible and know this God has form.
This patriarchial tribal demanding obedience as proof of love on pain of death is not the only version of God.

jemlad

Ambersky wrote: »

Only trouble is God is the oncoming car and yep I've read the bible and know this God has form.
This patriarchial tribal demanding obedience as proof of love on pain of death is not the only version of God.

Hi Ambersky, Most of what I said was a genuine response to what you believe the bible says but what you think is untrue. You are picking up on an analogy to debunk the entire thing which accomplishes nothing. I'm not being insincere.

You said you read the bible but do you actually believe in God? Because I can't see how you came to the conclusion you did about the crucifixion and the sacrifice. There was no punishment to any individual. After reading everything I wrote in relation to "God sacrificing himself" do you still believe that He wanted a separate person to suffer that wasn't God? Do you not see how that relates to the Holy Trinity. You said you didn't like the idea of the crucifixion yet that is THE most important part of it. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son. He gave Himself.

You said that God wanted to punish someone because he's "an angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever, kind of God" but let me try to expand a bit on God. God is perfect and as such He cannot look upon sin. If He did we would be destroyed. All He has to do is look!

This is what the bible means when it talks about separation from God. We are separated from Him because of our sin. He can no longer look upon us but God doesn't want us to be separated from Him so He had to create a way for people to come back to him. Now when I say for people to come back to Him I mean they have to want to. If you don't want to that's fine, it's not God that looses out it's you unfortunately. God created everything but He also created free will so you can do what you want and that includes living in sin which ultimately leads to eternal separation.

People's lives are terrible in this world, even the richest people on the planet, and it's not what God wanted when He created man but its what had to happen as this life is a learning experience. I could expand endlessly but I don't intend on writing a book this evening! (although i'm not far off) You may think that a rich man is happy or that you are happy but what are you comparing it to? Other people? Have you any idea what heaven is like? The bible says that the poorest man in heaven will have more than the richest in the world.

God the father is a spirit so if you don't believe in spiritual things the things I say to you will sound foolish but I can assure you I take the bible very seriously and when It's studied it is very eye opening.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

One thing that people seem to ignore is the existence of the devil. The devil hates man because of the high position he was given and because the devil tempted Adam, Adam lost his place as ruler of the world and it was given over to satan. That's who rules this world now until Christ returns. So when that day arrives everyone living and dead will be sent to the place they chose in this life. Do you think this world is a good place to be? Are you happy to live, work 9-5 have an occasional holiday grow old and die or do you desire more?

Turn on the news for an hour and tell me of anything good you hear on it? All people have to do is look around you and it becomes obvious who's in charge. There's all these scapegoats like illuminati, bilderbergs, rothchild etc and if you do any bit of research you'll see all the very richest in the world most definitely believe in spiritual things but it just happens to be evil spirits. I'm expecting calls of "conspiracy theorist" on the way which are fantastically dismissive words as it justifies to the person saying it a reason not to actually check anything.

Have a look at this http://thelatterdays.blogspot.ie/2008/12/i-amsasha-fierce.html If you find it foolish that's fine but look a bit deeper into it yourself and you may be surprised because I thought it was a load of rubbish until I actually looked deeper. I never even picked up a bible or even gave God a second thought until 2 years ago so I know exactly where you're coming from and I say these things with all sincerity.

I'll try and expand on the analogy a bit further but I think you should read what I wrote as a whole and not focus on it alone. The car is the just and righteous punishment that must be served on the devil and those that love the world that he's created full of murder, rape, war, lies ad infinitum... the child is the children of God, those that repent of their sins and don't like this world and the person jumping in front of the car is Jesus saving them.

I would never mock or insult anyone and I only say these things because they are the truth and the truth stands by itself. I want you to question everything I say and dissect it and if I am in error I will be humble enough to admit it but all I'd like you to do is see where the rabbit hole goes...

God bless.

Safehands

jemlad wrote: »

Jesus took the punishment for your sins, every last one and if a man can truly realise how monumental an act of love that is, to die for someone else, even the worst of sinners is truly amazing.

That is my whole point Jemlad. If he was God, then he knew that he would be going to rise again in three days time, then its not quite so monumental. If it were an ordinary man, then it would have been an amazing thing to do, although I don't really understand how Jesus doing what he did changed anything. Things were just as bad after he died. His followers butchered people in his name, because they were convinced it was the right thing to do. So if he was expecting to help mankind by dying, it didn't really work, did it?

Ambersky

This is the Christianity forum and I know the crucifixion as sacrifice and as a way of paying for human sins is a central tenant for many, if not all, Im not sure of that, in a way thats my question. I got involved in this issue again because I think it is so awful and I wasnt always able to see it like that.

I used to be a Christian, Catholic, born again and all, so yes I have read the bible and I guess it is my early spiritual experience and part of my formation. You know the way ex smokers can be the worst anti smokers well I guess Im a bit like that. Having seen a practice and a belief i.e. Christianity with new eyes, I cant not see the cracks in it anymore.

Jemlad you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this and I probably shouldnt write anymore out of respect for this forum and because it will just go around and around. I know you are being sincere, actually so am I but I also know what I am saying is upsetting for many Christians.

I think I know where you are coming from having been there. I think you and many other Christians dont know where I and people like me am coming from.
Its not like I'm worldly and you are spiritual or that I see things from a materialistic viewpoint and you are above that putting your faith in spiritual things. Thats the way Christians usually portray the relationship between Non Believers and Christians. Its also not like a person with faith rules out logic I would hope not anyway.

The crucifixion is a central reason for my non belief.
Its not that I dont believe it happened its because I believe it probably did happen.
The God I described earlier and that I said I didnt like is the one portrayed in the bible, indeed as perfect but that goes along with angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever. I can quote chapter and verse for every quality I mention. I dont care if God the father was satisfied by the death of an aspect of himself, god the son, because he couldn't look at "sin" and didn't require any more human deaths in order to get over himself.
I cant unsee that anyone needing someone else's death and torture, be it a human aspect of himself or the whole human race in flood or other apocalypse in order to get over disobedience or any other slight on his "perfection", is deranged. My eyes used to be cloudy with a kind of spiritual haze on this issue but I see it now and I cant unsee it.

A questioning mind is not necessarily a bad thing it has become my greatest ally.

“And your doubt can become a good quality if you train it. It must become knowing, it must become criticism. Ask it, whenever it wants to spoil something for you, why something is ugly, demand proofs from it, test it, and you will find it perhaps bewildered and embarrased, perhaps also protesting. But don't give in, insist on arguments, and act in this way, attentive and persistent, every single time, and the day will come when, instead of being a destroyer, it will become one of your best workers--perhaps the most intelligent of all the ones that are building your life.”

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1208289-briefe-an-einen-jungen-dichter

Safehands

Ambersky wrote: »

The God I described earlier and that I said I didnt like is the one portrayed in the bible, indeed as perfect but that goes along with angry, vengeful, jealous, authoritarian, testing, holds onto slights hurts and grudges forever. I can quote chapter and verse for every quality I mention. I dont care if God the father was satisfied by the death of an aspect of himself, god the son, because he couldn't look at "sin" and didn't require any more human deaths in order to get over himself.
A questioning mind is not necessarily a bad thing it has become my greatest ally.

The fact that the bible describes God at various times as all these things, just proves that it is not accurate. Those things are the antithesis of love. So a loving God cannot act in an unloving way. (Please don't anybody tell me that he would kill or have killed a person because he loves them. That is just perverse logic)

tommy2bad

Safehands wrote: »

The fact that the bible describes God at various times as all these things, just proves that it is not accurate. Those things are the antithesis of love. So a loving God cannot act in an unloving way. (Please don't anybody tell me that he would kill or have killed a person because he loves them. That is just perverse logic)

Indeed killing someone because you love them is perverse, sacrificing yourself for them is what God did, not kill someone instead of them.
The cross isn't just god taking on human suffering to see what it's like or show that he now knows what we go through. The point is we sinned and the inevitable conciquences of this was death both physical and spiritual. Jesus, God made man, took the concequences on out behalf.
Jesus didn't just suffer a human death, that would not be all that spectacular, who of us wouldn't give up our life to save one of our children? and we don't get to respawn in 3 days (damn laggy server ) Jesus also went through separation from God, "Why have you forsaken me?" Descended into hell and rose again, making a path for us to follow.
Yeah He could have faked the pain and suffering, lied about the separation but then the job would not be done and we would be still subject to the concequences of our actions. Then again He would not have risen and ascended. The cross is where God and man are united, separated and reconciled. Not some penalty or ransom paid but a correction to our mistakes on our behalf not Gods. How could God be damaged by what we did, why would He need reparation?

Safehands

What did he say to the thief on the cross beside him? Was it not "Tonight you will be with me in paradise"?

tommy2bad

Safehands wrote: »

What did he say to the thief on the cross beside him? Was it not "Tonight you will be with me in paradise"?

That used to puzzle me a lot, if God died on the cross and stayed dead for 3 days, who was the thief hanging around with that night? Of course God isn't bound by time like us so it's a rhetorical flourish on Jesus behalf. tonight tomorrow 3 weeks later for the thief end of days was imediatly after dieing.