2600 -v- 22000 on Cork-Tralee discussion

bikeman1 · 27-11-2013 09:38AM

What I don't understand is why 22s can't be tagged onto the back of another service if they need to be moved around the country? Surely on a Friday an extra 22 could be sent south to cover the 26s on the weekend on the back of another service that is 22 operated? Use it for the weekend and send it back as required. It wouldn't have to be in use, just locked off.

This is common practice around Europe to move stock. No extra driver or empty working. Even having one 22 completely spare in Cork all week just shut down to cover for the busy weekend might be another idea.

LXFlyer · 27-11-2013 09:45AM

bikeman1 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why 22s can't be tagged onto the back of another service if they need to be moved around the country? Surely on a Friday an extra 22 could be sent south to cover the 26s on the weekend on the back of another service that is 22 operated? Use it for the weekend and send it back as required. It wouldn't have to be in use, just locked off.

This is common practice around Europe to move stock. No extra driver or empty working. Even having one 22 completely spare in Cork all week just shut down to cover for the busy weekend might be another idea.

And where is this 22k going to magically appear from, particularly on a Friday evening when capacity is at it's tightest?

Post-reformation there are no spare 22k sets - they are all in service.

bikeman1 · 27-11-2013 10:04AM

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

LXFlyer · 27-11-2013 10:09AM

bikeman1 wrote: »

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

There are of course the other Mark 4 sets, but the reality is that the company cannot currently afford to operate them all.

We could come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they don't cost anything extra, there isn't any hope of them happening.

You have to view this in the context of the current financial position within which the company finds itself.

bikeman1 · 27-11-2013 10:20AM

Yes, but giving passengers who have paid on average €65 to €81.50 return for their train tickets from Dublin a 20 year old 2600 which is like being on DART is not correct.

Passengers will just not travel after their experience on this sub standard experience. Especially after giving virtually all services a 22 in recent times.

Cuts / Austerity can only go so far before it creates an even bigger problem than the savings being sought to achieve.

LXFlyer · 27-11-2013 10:38AM

bikeman1 wrote: »

Yes, but giving passengers who have paid on average €65 to €81.50 return for their train tickets from Dublin a 20 year old 2600 which is like being on DART is not correct.

Passengers will just not travel after their experience on this sub standard experience. Especially after giving virtually all services a 22 in recent times.

Cuts / Austerity can only go so far before it creates an even bigger problem than the savings being sought to achieve.

There is a balance to be struck, in any cost cutting programme, but I would make a couple of points specific to the Kerry issue.

It arises primarily due to there being an additional direct ICR service to Dublin since last January - perhaps you'd prefer that they cancel that?
This 2600s have been operating on Kerry in the current pattern since the last timetable change (i.e. January), and even before that there have been at least two return workings operated by 2600s on the line at the weekends for some years - this is nothing new. It would strike me that numbers have presumably not plummeted as a result, given it is still operated in the same manner.
Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.

We've got to be somewhat realistic here - every element of the public service is having its budget slashed - IE is losing over 7% more of its PSO subsidy next year, yet is expected to maintain services.

corktina · 27-11-2013 10:57AM

where is the balance in using unsuitable commuter stock on some long distance services and Intercity railcars on short distance working?

LXFlyer · 27-11-2013 11:19AM

corktina wrote: »

where is the balance in using unsuitable commuter stock on some long distance services and Intercity railcars on short distance working?

The Kerry situation is very specific to weekends due to there being an additional direct service to Dublin, and extra Sunday trains.

The problem is right now, due to the financial constraints that the company have, there is not enough money to operate all of the trains.

They have to make do with the resources that they can afford to operate.

It isn't ideal, but would you prefer that they cut back on services instead?

corktina · 27-11-2013 12:18PM

it isn't just Kerry though is it?

It's a good point about storing nearly new InterCity stock and running unsuitable stock on intercity services. How can that make any sense? It will ultimately lose passengers when all efforts should be made to gain them and I don't see too many "off peak xmas shopping offers" or the like being advertised (for example)

end of the road · 27-11-2013 01:58PM

bikeman1 wrote: »

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

not to worry, the kerry road will be shut and lifted in a few years along with rosslare graystones, theirs no excuse for irish rail operating horid dirty smelly rickity 2600s on the kerry road, they can't afford to operate the trains? well maybe time to remind the minister that their having to store trains that the tax payer payed for and that it is causing passenger numbers to go down, surely their little buddies in the NTA will help seeing as they usually agree with irish rail including rubber stamping the stealing of a railway service from the people of south wexford to pay for a fail rail up in the west

end of the road · 27-11-2013 02:03PM

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a balance to be struck, in any cost cutting programme, but I would make a couple of points specific to the Kerry issue.

It arises primarily due to there being an additional direct ICR service to Dublin since last January - perhaps you'd prefer that they cancel that?
This 2600s have been operating on Kerry in the current pattern since the last timetable change (i.e. January), and even before that there have been at least two return workings operated by 2600s on the line at the weekends for some years - this is nothing new. It would strike me that numbers have presumably not plummeted as a result, given it is still operated in the same manner.
Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.
We've got to be somewhat realistic here - every element of the public service is having its budget slashed - IE is losing over 7% more of its PSO subsidy next year, yet is expected to maintain services.

their not going to be able to keep services running if the subsidy is cut any more, commuter stock will be the order of the day on long distance services which will eventually turn passengers away, i bet people have left the kerry road for alternatives, irish rail keep operating 29s on the rosslare line and have put them on more services in the past couple of weeks apparently even though people have left for alternatives.

end of the road · 27-11-2013 02:05PM

lxflyer wrote: »

The Kerry situation is very specific to weekends due to there being an additional direct service to Dublin, and extra Sunday trains.

The problem is right now, due to the financial constraints that the company have, there is not enough money to operate all of the trains.

They have to make do with the resources that they can afford to operate.

It isn't ideal, but would you prefer that they cut back on services instead?

services will be cut lx, only a matter of time

LXFlyer · 27-11-2013 02:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

not to worry, the kerry road will be shut and lifted in a few years along with rosslare graystones, theirs no excuse for irish rail operating horid dirty smelly rickity 2600s on the kerry road, they can't afford to operate the trains? well maybe time to remind the minister that their having to store trains that the tax payer payed for and that it is causing passenger numbers to go down, surely their little buddies in the NTA will help seeing as they usually agree with irish rail including rubber stamping the stealing of a railway service from the people of south wexford to pay for a fail rail up in the west

Well perhaps you should have a word with the minister yourself.

The subsidy is being cut by another 7% in 2014.

end of the road · 27-11-2013 02:27PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you should have a word with the minister yourself.

The subsidy is being cut by another 7% in 2014.

the minister couldn't care a less, i'd be writing to him on a daily basis if i thought it would do any good

Jamie2k9 · 27-11-2013 09:20PM

The Limerick J-Limerick shuttle service is more less all 2800's of late, could be just while fleet changes take place but can't see 2 3 pieces being available to return to it. IE better not use a 4 piece set for the shuttle. 2800's are fine for such a short journey. The same on the Kerry route at times.

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services

No exactly the case all the time, yes a factor but not the route cause of it.

dowlingm · 28-11-2013 04:25PM

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

end of the road · 28-11-2013 05:15PM

dowlingm wrote: »

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

i wouldn't even call it competition as the railway isn't been given a chance, no proper speed improvements etc, the games that are happening and will happen only lead to 1 thing, passengers suffering, going to alternatives, not coming in the first place

Jamie2k9 · 28-11-2013 06:35PM

dowlingm wrote: »

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

So your suggesting that Heuston lines get the scrap currently on the Belfast route...:mad:

Why should it be up to IE to provide 22's for the route when NIR have good DMU's to do the same. The less excellent bits of the track up North are due to NIR not investing in the network, down South the line is prefect and could easily allow for 100mph running (think it's 90 now) which is more less the norm. The main problems with Belfast route are up North and not down here.

dowlingm · 28-11-2013 06:38PM

there are signs that someone at NTA is leaning towards a managed model between Dublin and Mullingar but we need to know if this is just window dressing or there is actual intent to use buses and trains synergistically.

2600 -v- 22000 on Cork-Tralee discussion

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