2600 -v- 22000 on Cork-Tralee discussion

Victor

Split from [=http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056341985]Photo Thread.[/url]

Sending 2600s to Tralee again? :mad:

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer

Karsini wrote: »

Sending 2600s to Tralee again? :mad:

We've been through this before.

Several of the Tralee route services on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are 2600 operated due to one of the two Kerry 22k sets operating to Dublin from Tralee on Sunday and not getting back to Cork until the 21:00 from Heuston on Sunday night.

The_Wanderer

lxflyer wrote: »

We've been through this before.

Several of the Tralee route services on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are 2600 operated due to one of the two Kerry 22k sets operating to Dublin from Tralee on Sunday and not getting back to Cork until the 21:00 from Heuston on Sunday night.

The 2600 in question operates the 2055 Cork - Tralee Friday night and remains in Tralee for the 0455 Tralee - Cork Monday morning. It is normally spare on a Saturday, but was required today to operate some Tralee line services as the altered timetabled required three trains to operate it, normally it is two trains.

Since the timetable change one of the Kerry ICR's goes to Heuston on a Sunday with the 1150 Tralee - Heuston. This means there are three diagrams of 2600's on the Tralee line on Sunday.

1:
2055 Cork - Tralee (Sat Night).
0710 Tralee - Cork

2:
1210 Cork - Tralee
1510 Tralee - Mallow
1725 Mallow - Tralee
1915 Tralee - Cork

3:
1845 Cork - Tralee
2110 Tralee - Cork Empty.

Diagram two can often be a 4pce 2600.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

We've been through this before.

Several of the Tralee route services on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are 2600 operated due to one of the two Kerry 22k sets operating to Dublin from Tralee on Sunday and not getting back to Cork until the 21:00 from Heuston on Sunday night.

could they not park the thing in Portlaoise and send a 22 out instead?

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

could they not park the thing in Portlaoise and send a 22 out instead?

Read my post again - one of the two locally based 22k sets that is usually on Mallow/Tralee operates an additional service to Dublin on Sundays from Tralee. As a result, to maintain the full service you end up with 2600s between Cork/Mallow and Tralee.

corktina

read mine again...instead of using the 2600, could they not park that out of service and re-instate a stored 22 in it's place?

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

read mine again...instead of using the 2600, could they not park that out of service and re-instate a stored 22 in it's place?

I've already told you - all of the stored 22k sets (approximately 4) are all being reinstated into service as the reformation process finishes.

I imagine that the cost of running that 22k all week on Cork local services would be much greater than running the 2600.

I do wonder frankly - do people just have any idea of the financial realities of the current situation in which the CIE group find themselves?

There is not enough money available to operate everything. That's the bottom line.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

I've already told you - all of the stored 22k sets (approximately 4) are all being reinstated into service as the reformation process finishes.

I imagine that the cost of running that 22k all week on Cork local services would be much greater than running the 2600.

I do wonder frankly - do people just have any idea of the financial realities of the current situation in which the CIE group find themselves?

There is not enough money available to operate everything. That's the bottom line.

so people have to put up with 2600s on a long route such as cork/mallow tralee, great way to run a railway

corktina

exactly. If there is a spare 2600 in Cork, which there plainly must be, why not replace that with a 22. I doubt there would be much difference in the running costs

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

exactly. If there is a spare 2600 in Cork, which there plainly must be, why not replace that with a 22. I doubt there would be much difference in the running costs

i'd say the ICR would cost less, surely the newer MTU engine in the ICR is more fuel efficient then the 20 year old cummence NTA855 engine? also the 2600 running the cork tralee is probably a 4 piece whereas the ICR running it is probably a 3 piece so that would make a difference

GTE

corktina wrote: »

exactly. If there is a spare 2600 in Cork, which there plainly must be, why not replace that with a 22. I doubt there would be much difference in the running costs

But the poster is trying to tell you that there is no spare 22 to do this. Presumably, swapping it for an in service 22 is not suitable. EDIT: Possibly not suitable due in part to the running costs that have just been speculated.

Victor

end of the road wrote: »

so people have to put up with 2600s on a long route such as cork/mallow tralee, great way to run a railway

15-20 years ago, one had to put up with them on Cork-Dublin.

end of the road

Victor wrote: »

15-20 years ago, one had to put up with them on Cork-Dublin.

that doesn't surprise me one bit

Rud

Victor wrote: »

15-20 years ago, one had to put up with them on Cork-Dublin.

Good God.What a horrible trip that must have been

LXFlyer

That was at a time when we had not enough rolling stock and it was the only option for an extra service on Sundays. It was also a way of swapping the sets used on Cork/Cobh during the week.

The same applied to the Galway route. There was an extra 2600 service on Sundays for a period also.

corktina

bbk wrote: »

But the poster is trying to tell you that there is no spare 22 to do this. Presumably, swapping it for an in service 22 is not suitable. EDIT: Possibly not suitable due in part to the running costs that have just been speculated.

there are 4 or so spare stored in Portlaoise at any given time.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

That was at a time when we had not enough rolling stock and it was the only option for an extra service on Sundays. It was also a way of swapping the sets used on Cork/Cobh during the week.

The same applied to the Galway route. There was an extra 2600 service on Sundays for a period also.

the reason we had a shortage was because the mark 2s were deliberately left to rot, had they not then 2600s wouldn't have been doing cork/galway, running commuter stock on long distance services is never exceptable, it puts off potential customers from the railway and first time customers don't come back.

GTE

corktina wrote: »

there are 4 or so spare stored in Portlaoise at any given time.

Yes, that is what is understood but what was being said by the other user is that they are being reinstated into standard service as we speak so that is what I am wondering about.

corktina

bbk wrote: »

Yes, that is what is understood but what was being said by the other user is that they are being reinstated into standard service as we speak so that is what I am wondering about.

how will they afford it when they can't afford it now?:rolleyes:

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

how will they afford it when they can't afford it now?:rolleyes:

They can afford it because they will replace two Mark 4 sets which will go into storage.

We're getting way off topic here - really this discussion should be somewhere else!

GTE

corktina wrote: »

how will they afford it when they can't afford it now?:rolleyes:

To take your post minus the rollie eyes, what LX just said is something I have read a few times here so no need to get like that, it is not remotely constructive. There is a lot of repetition here for the casual observer like me.

Anyway, back to topic indeed, there is another thread running recently that can take the spill over.

The more colour coded hose pipes the better

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

They can afford it because they will replace two Mark 4 sets which will go into storage.

We're getting way off topic here - really this discussion should be somewhere else!

I agree but can't lt it pass...what jusitifcation is there for running long distance services with a a fairly old and unsutitable 2600 whilst storing nearly new Mk4s?

LXFlyer

OK - There are two distinct issues here.

One - How IE have utilised the money that they invested, and whether the appropriate value was gained from it.

Two - What they can afford to do right now.

I think we can all agree the answer to question 1 - it's no it was not.

However, what you and others here seem to be not grasping is the severity of the financial situation in which the current management of the company find themselves.

We can all agree that from a broader perspective that it is not right for Mark 4 sets to be going into storage, but the plain fact of the matter that you and others seem to be ignoring is that right now they cannot afford to operate all of the trains at the moment. That's the situation that the current management face - the company (just like Dublin Bus) has serious financial issues that, if they are not addressed, could lead to the company going bankrupt. That is the stark reality of the situation.

Hence you are seeing cost cutting measures where possible that include:
- Shorter trains
- Increased use of ICRs on Dublin/Cork

- Different classes of trains being maintained in locations local to operations:

• 2600s in Cork
• 2800s in Limerick
• ICRs in Portlaoise, Cork and Drogheda (the latter two for light maintenance only)
• 29000s in Drogheda

The latter means that you (in general) avoid lengthy empty workings to/from depots and have all of spare parts/expertise in one location for each class of unit.

Specifically on Kerry, they introduced an extra train to Dublin last year that is ICR operated, using one of the two ICR sets that is usually based in Cork. That train does not get back to Cork until midnight on Sunday night.

There are no other ICR sets in Cork available to operate the Kerry route, and they have extra trains on Sunday as well - therefore you would have to send a unit from elsewhere, and find an additional driver to drive it to Cork, a second driver to drive it back, all at extra cost, and even still you would not cover all the Kerry route workings, as there are extra trains on Sundays requiring three extra sets.

Your suggestion of putting a 2600 set into storage, and running an ICR in its place frankly would not be cost effective over the full week as the cost of running an ICR on Cork/Cobh or Cork/Midleton -v- running a 2600 would be greater. Plus you have the additional fuel and driver cost of running it to/from Portlaoise for maintenance, while the 2600 sets are maintained locally.

The bottom line in all of this is that the current management are trying to keep as many services as possible running within a specific budget. None of us (myself included) particularly like some of the decisions that have had to be taken, but the company is not in a vacuum - it has to cut cost.

Would you rather that the services didn't operate at all? That's pretty much the point where we are at - and I really think people need to start grasping how serious the financial situation in this company is.

corktina

that was not my suggestion at all. I didn't say you should run it all week, merely replace the otherwise spare 2600unit(s) (must be spare mustn't it or else it wouldn't be there to use at the weekend as it is...)

It seems to me you are saying "IE right, every other option wrong"

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

that was not my suggestion at all. I didn't say you should run it all week, merely replace the otherwise spare 2600unit(s) (must be spare mustn't it or else it wouldn't be there to use at the weekend as it is...)

It seems to me you are saying "IE right, every other option wrong"

But you would have to get the ICR to Cork in the first place for the weekend - which would mean extra cost in terms of fuel and wages.

The 2600s are all in use Monday/Friday on Cork local services. They are spare on Sunday due to the reduced frequency on Cobh, Midleton and Mallow.

As for saying "IE right - every other option wrong", that's not what I'm saying at all, and I think it's somewhat insulting to suggest that I am, just because what I'm saying is not what you want to hear. I'm using my professional knowledge from working in finance to make my comments. The reality is that your suggestion would involve additional cost.

That's something that the company cannot afford right now.

LXFlyer

Hence my comment above - mods can you move the discussion about 2600s elsewhere?

corktina

I have no desire to offend you, so I started a new thread.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

I agree but can't lt it pass...what jusitifcation is there for running long distance services with a a fairly old and unsutitable 2600 whilst storing nearly new Mk4s?

because their a shambles when it comes to managing their rolling stock, they should have been forced to put up with the mark 3s and the mark 4s which more of them should have been bought, as when it comes to DMU operation, they just can't manage it

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

OK - There are two distinct issues here.

One - How IE have utilised the money that they invested, and whether the appropriate value was gained from it.

Two - What they can afford to do right now.

I think we can all agree the answer to question 1 - it's no it was not.

However, what you and others here seem to be not grasping is the severity of the financial situation in which the current management of the company find themselves.

We can all agree that from a broader perspective that it is not right for Mark 4 sets to be going into storage, but the plain fact of the matter that you and others seem to be ignoring is that right now they cannot afford to operate all of the trains at the moment. That's the situation that the current management face - the company (just like Dublin Bus) has serious financial issues that, if they are not addressed, could lead to the company going bankrupt. That is the stark reality of the situation.

Hence you are seeing cost cutting measures where possible that include:
- Shorter trains
- Increased use of ICRs on Dublin/Cork


- Different classes of trains being maintained in locations local to operations:

• 2600s in Cork
• 2800s in Limerick
• ICRs in Portlaoise, Cork and Drogheda (the latter two for light maintenance only)
• 29000s in Drogheda

The latter means that you (in general) avoid lengthy empty workings to/from depots and have all of spare parts/expertise in one location for each class of unit.

Specifically on Kerry, they introduced an extra train to Dublin last year that is ICR operated, using one of the two ICR sets that is usually based in Cork. That train does not get back to Cork until midnight on Sunday night.

There are no other ICR sets in Cork available to operate the Kerry route, and they have extra trains on Sunday as well - therefore you would have to send a unit from elsewhere, and find an additional driver to drive it to Cork, a second driver to drive it back, all at extra cost, and even still you would not cover all the Kerry route workings, as there are extra trains on Sundays requiring three extra sets.

Your suggestion of putting a 2600 set into storage, and running an ICR in its place frankly would not be cost effective over the full week as the cost of running an ICR on Cork/Cobh or Cork/Midleton -v- running a 2600 would be greater. Plus you have the additional fuel and driver cost of running it to/from Portlaoise for maintenance, while the 2600 sets are maintained locally.

The bottom line in all of this is that the current management are trying to keep as many services as possible running within a specific budget. None of us (myself included) particularly like some of the decisions that have had to be taken, but the company is not in a vacuum - it has to cut cost.

Would you rather that the services didn't operate at all? That's pretty much the point where we are at - and I really think people need to start grasping how serious the financial situation in this company is.

they eventually won't operate at all as the subsidy will be cut so much and people will just give up

bikeman1

What I don't understand is why 22s can't be tagged onto the back of another service if they need to be moved around the country? Surely on a Friday an extra 22 could be sent south to cover the 26s on the weekend on the back of another service that is 22 operated? Use it for the weekend and send it back as required. It wouldn't have to be in use, just locked off.

This is common practice around Europe to move stock. No extra driver or empty working. Even having one 22 completely spare in Cork all week just shut down to cover for the busy weekend might be another idea.

LXFlyer

bikeman1 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why 22s can't be tagged onto the back of another service if they need to be moved around the country? Surely on a Friday an extra 22 could be sent south to cover the 26s on the weekend on the back of another service that is 22 operated? Use it for the weekend and send it back as required. It wouldn't have to be in use, just locked off.

This is common practice around Europe to move stock. No extra driver or empty working. Even having one 22 completely spare in Cork all week just shut down to cover for the busy weekend might be another idea.

And where is this 22k going to magically appear from, particularly on a Friday evening when capacity is at it's tightest?

Post-reformation there are no spare 22k sets - they are all in service.

bikeman1

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

LXFlyer

bikeman1 wrote: »

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

There are of course the other Mark 4 sets, but the reality is that the company cannot currently afford to operate them all.

We could come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they don't cost anything extra, there isn't any hope of them happening.

You have to view this in the context of the current financial position within which the company finds itself.

bikeman1

Yes, but giving passengers who have paid on average €65 to €81.50 return for their train tickets from Dublin a 20 year old 2600 which is like being on DART is not correct.

Passengers will just not travel after their experience on this sub standard experience. Especially after giving virtually all services a 22 in recent times.

Cuts / Austerity can only go so far before it creates an even bigger problem than the savings being sought to achieve.

LXFlyer

bikeman1 wrote: »

Yes, but giving passengers who have paid on average €65 to €81.50 return for their train tickets from Dublin a 20 year old 2600 which is like being on DART is not correct.

Passengers will just not travel after their experience on this sub standard experience. Especially after giving virtually all services a 22 in recent times.

Cuts / Austerity can only go so far before it creates an even bigger problem than the savings being sought to achieve.

There is a balance to be struck, in any cost cutting programme, but I would make a couple of points specific to the Kerry issue.

• It arises primarily due to there being an additional direct ICR service to Dublin since last January - perhaps you'd prefer that they cancel that?
• This 2600s have been operating on Kerry in the current pattern since the last timetable change (i.e. January), and even before that there have been at least two return workings operated by 2600s on the line at the weekends for some years - this is nothing new. It would strike me that numbers have presumably not plummeted as a result, given it is still operated in the same manner.
• Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.

We've got to be somewhat realistic here - every element of the public service is having its budget slashed - IE is losing over 7% more of its PSO subsidy next year, yet is expected to maintain services.

corktina

where is the balance in using unsuitable commuter stock on some long distance services and Intercity railcars on short distance working?

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

where is the balance in using unsuitable commuter stock on some long distance services and Intercity railcars on short distance working?

The Kerry situation is very specific to weekends due to there being an additional direct service to Dublin, and extra Sunday trains.

The problem is right now, due to the financial constraints that the company have, there is not enough money to operate all of the trains.

They have to make do with the resources that they can afford to operate.

It isn't ideal, but would you prefer that they cut back on services instead?

corktina

it isn't just Kerry though is it?

It's a good point about storing nearly new InterCity stock and running unsuitable stock on intercity services. How can that make any sense? It will ultimately lose passengers when all efforts should be made to gain them and I don't see too many "off peak xmas shopping offers" or the like being advertised (for example)

end of the road

bikeman1 wrote: »

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services. Having 2600s is less than ideal and a kick in the teeth to the Kerry road which is well used despite having sub standard stock for years.

not to worry, the kerry road will be shut and lifted in a few years along with rosslare graystones, theirs no excuse for irish rail operating horid dirty smelly rickity 2600s on the kerry road, they can't afford to operate the trains? well maybe time to remind the minister that their having to store trains that the tax payer payed for and that it is causing passenger numbers to go down, surely their little buddies in the NTA will help seeing as they usually agree with irish rail including rubber stamping the stealing of a railway service from the people of south wexford to pay for a fail rail up in the west

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a balance to be struck, in any cost cutting programme, but I would make a couple of points specific to the Kerry issue.

It arises primarily due to there being an additional direct ICR service to Dublin since last January - perhaps you'd prefer that they cancel that?
This 2600s have been operating on Kerry in the current pattern since the last timetable change (i.e. January), and even before that there have been at least two return workings operated by 2600s on the line at the weekends for some years - this is nothing new. It would strike me that numbers have presumably not plummeted as a result, given it is still operated in the same manner.
Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.
We've got to be somewhat realistic here - every element of the public service is having its budget slashed - IE is losing over 7% more of its PSO subsidy next year, yet is expected to maintain services.

their not going to be able to keep services running if the subsidy is cut any more, commuter stock will be the order of the day on long distance services which will eventually turn passengers away, i bet people have left the kerry road for alternatives, irish rail keep operating 29s on the rosslare line and have put them on more services in the past couple of weeks apparently even though people have left for alternatives.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

The Kerry situation is very specific to weekends due to there being an additional direct service to Dublin, and extra Sunday trains.

The problem is right now, due to the financial constraints that the company have, there is not enough money to operate all of the trains.

They have to make do with the resources that they can afford to operate.

It isn't ideal, but would you prefer that they cut back on services instead?

services will be cut lx, only a matter of time

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

not to worry, the kerry road will be shut and lifted in a few years along with rosslare graystones, theirs no excuse for irish rail operating horid dirty smelly rickity 2600s on the kerry road, they can't afford to operate the trains? well maybe time to remind the minister that their having to store trains that the tax payer payed for and that it is causing passenger numbers to go down, surely their little buddies in the NTA will help seeing as they usually agree with irish rail including rubber stamping the stealing of a railway service from the people of south wexford to pay for a fail rail up in the west

Well perhaps you should have a word with the minister yourself.

The subsidy is being cut by another 7% in 2014.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you should have a word with the minister yourself.

The subsidy is being cut by another 7% in 2014.

the minister couldn't care a less, i'd be writing to him on a daily basis if i thought it would do any good

Jamie2k9

The Limerick J-Limerick shuttle service is more less all 2800's of late, could be just while fleet changes take place but can't see 2 3 pieces being available to return to it. IE better not use a 4 piece set for the shuttle. 2800's are fine for such a short journey. The same on the Kerry route at times.

Post reformation there will be 3 of the 7 Mk4 sets in service creating this "shortage" of 22s. There is plenty of IC stock to work IC services

No exactly the case all the time, yes a factor but not the route cause of it.

dowlingm

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

i wouldn't even call it competition as the railway isn't been given a chance, no proper speed improvements etc, the games that are happening and will happen only lead to 1 thing, passengers suffering, going to alternatives, not coming in the first place

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

For me, the Belfast service distorts fleet planning because of the mixed operation of locomotive and DMU service between the two Dublin termini. If Enterprise (and therefore IE Connolly-side) went 22000 and the DDs went the other way then there could be a rationalisation of available resources (not to mention the better acceleration on the DMUs on the less than excellent bits of track north of the border while the 201/DDs dash down the KRP).

I wish IE (with NIR's cooperation and suitable exchange of assets) had explored such possibilities before spending a lot of time and effort on reformations.

As for subsidies etc., as long as Ireland insists on cut throat competition rather than a managed network then a Public Transport Hunger Games is the only outcome.

So your suggesting that Heuston lines get the scrap currently on the Belfast route...:mad:

Why should it be up to IE to provide 22's for the route when NIR have good DMU's to do the same. The less excellent bits of the track up North are due to NIR not investing in the network, down South the line is prefect and could easily allow for 100mph running (think it's 90 now) which is more less the norm. The main problems with Belfast route are up North and not down here.

dowlingm

there are signs that someone at NTA is leaning towards a managed model between Dublin and Mullingar but we need to know if this is just window dressing or there is actual intent to use buses and trains synergistically.