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Pope criticises the idolatry of wealth. Is the Vatican art and gold all fake?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Me?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Me?


    I know I contributed to this thread but is not more suited to some other forum?

    One over there
    >


    Edit: Ha ha, I just realised what I did.


  • #33
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
    Matthew 19:24


  • #34
    HerrScheisse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 783 ✭✭✭HerrScheisse


    mikom wrote: »
    We all have softer sides............ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sDiV_Fyg9oY/UQeJRC2Il2I/AAAAAAABaOo/nRBXYM5TCPc/s1600/Every-man-woman-and-child-desires-simply-to-touch-the-hand-of-the-greatest-hero-who-ever-lived-Adolf-Hitler.jpg[/QUOTE]

    Are you supporting Hitler or castigating Francis?

    Hitler may have had a soft side as do many baby kissing politicians, but nobody can deny the evil he brought onto the world.

    What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.


  • #35
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,101 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Einhard wrote: »
    If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge.

    €14 when I was there.

    Hardly minimal. :rolleyes:


  • #36
    Me?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Me?


    HerrScheisse wrote: »
    mikom wrote: »
    We all have softer sides............ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sDiV_Fyg9oY/UQeJRC2Il2I/AAAAAAABaOo/nRBXYM5TCPc/s1600/Every-man-woman-and-child-desires-simply-to-touch-the-hand-of-the-greatest-hero-who-ever-lived-Adolf-Hitler.jpg[/QUOTE]

    Are you supporting Hitler or castigating Francis?

    Hitler may have had a soft side as do many baby kissing politicians, but nobody can deny the evil he brought onto the world.

    What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.

    Hitler and the Catholic church, this thread is now going to be full of funny.


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  • #37
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    I don't think the pope would have the authority to sell off anything, they aren't his artefacts and gold to sell.


  • #38
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    €14 when I was there.

    Hardly minimal. :rolleyes:

    But but That goes to feed the poor does it not ? They would never spend the revenue generated on admin and running cost would they ?


  • #39
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    HerrScheisse wrote: »



    What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.

    Get back to me when this leader of the church has made good on the harm the organisation caused in Ireland.


  • #40
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    awec wrote: »
    I'm not fussy. :)

    Actually, one answer might be if they donated some of the good stuff to our National Gallery as a downpayment. Good stuff mind you, no crap.


  • #41
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    diomed wrote: »
    To keep the OP happy maybe they could sell the roof of the Sistine Chapel to a Las Vegas casino.

    Or The Rathkeale Rovers get the ladders out?


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  • #42
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    What's the average price of these Mary statues all over the shop btw ? as they put a new very large one up near me and it looks like white marble on a granite pedestal.


  • #43
    HerrScheisse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 783 ✭✭✭HerrScheisse


    mikom wrote: »
    Get back to me when this leader of the church has made good on the harm the organisation caused in Ireland.

    Hate the crime, not the man. As he would. As any moral normal thinking person would.


  • #44
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,975 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Actually, one answer might be if they donated some of the good stuff to our National Gallery as a downpayment. Good stuff mind you, no crap.

    They'll slip you a micky given half a chance.


  • #45
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    HerrScheisse wrote: »
    Hate the crime, not the man. As he would. As any moral normal thinking person would.

    Hate the crime, move the priest to another parish.
    As any large religious organisation would


  • #46
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    But but That goes to feed the poor does it not ? They would never spend the revenue generated on admin and running cost would they ?

    Medieval Art is expensive to maintain. It deteriorates very quickly. Not many collectors would have the money or resources to look after these works of art. As long as that 14 euro is spent on preservation then I'd be okay with that.

    But yeah they could do alot more for the poor.


  • #47
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    Medieval Art is expensive to maintain. It deteriorates very quickly. Not many collectors would have the money or resources to look after these works of art. As long as that 14 euro is spent on preservation then I'd be okay with that.

    But yeah they could do alot more for the poor.

    You mean money to maintain there own collection ?


  • #48
    HerrScheisse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 783 ✭✭✭HerrScheisse


    mikom wrote: »
    Hate the crime, move the priest to another parish.
    As any large religious organisation would

    I am not disagreeing with you there. Despicable.

    But Francis had no part in that. You cannot cast them all in the same light. Though it would have been better if his predecessor actually backed up words with acts such as excommunication.


  • #49
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    HerrScheisse wrote: »
    I am not disagreeing with you there. Despicable.

    But Francis had no part in that. You cannot cast them all in the same light. Though it would have been better if his predecessor actually backed up words with acts such as excommunication.

    It's all ahead of Franky so.
    He'll have to take time out from hugging deformed blokes though.....


  • #50
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    A differentiation between wealth and artwork and architecture should be made. Some of the greatest artists of all time have been patronised by the church and during darker times maintained learning and culture that would otherwise been lost which is probably one of the church's greatest legacies.

    But on the other hand the church has had some very dodgy financial dealings fuelled by greed and lust for wealth and power resulting in all sorts of crime including murder.


  • #51
    HerrScheisse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 783 ✭✭✭HerrScheisse


    Come on. Be realistic. What do you expect?

    Do you think he will reject all doctrine, turn an entire administration upside down, sell off all assets?

    I think he could do that and you would still criticise him. And what do you have against him showing compassion?


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  • #52
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    wendell borton wrote: »

    But on the other hand the church has had some very dodgy financial dealings fuelled by greed and lust for wealth and power resulting in all sorts of crime including murder.

    Indeed.

    Germany’s largest media company is “Weltbild.” They’re owned completely by the Catholic church. Not many were aware of that until recently, when Buchreport, a German industry newsletter, said they also sell porn. The media company sells DVDs, books, music, etc., controlling, in fact, twenty percent of the book market in Germany.


    For around ten years, concerned members of the Catholic church who were aware of the goings-on have tried to point it out to Church authorities. Worldcrunch reported that, “In 2008, the group sent a 70-page document to all the bishops whose dioceses have shared ownership of Weltbild for 30 years, detailing evidence of the sale of questionable material.”


    A spokesman for the church responded, “Weltbild tries to prevent the distribution of possibly pornographic content.” The previously mentioned group of Catholics were outraged at the hypocrisy in that statement.


    Worldcrunch went on to say the following:
    Today, the Augsburg-based company employs 6,400 people, has an annual turnover of 1.7 billion euros, and an online business in Germany second only to Amazon. Weltbild is also Germany’s leading book seller, controlling 20% of the domestic bookstore market. Profits are regularly reinvested in the company with an eye to rapidly increase the market share – an increase that is only possible if Weltbild continues to sell materials that are not compatible with the teachings of the Church.
    The 2,500 erotic books in their online catalogue, including those from Blue Panther Books, an erotic book publisher owned by Weltbild, are only one example. Their titles include: “Anwaltshure” (Lawyer’s Whore), “Vögelbar” (F—kable) and “Schlampen-Internat” (Sluts’ Boarding School).


    The Church also owns a 50% share in publishing company Droemer Knaur which produces pornographic books, and so indirectly is also a publisher of pornographic material, titles including “Nimm mich hier und nimm mich jetzt!” (Take Me Here, Take Me Now!), and “Sag Luder zu mir!” (Call Me Slut!


    http://taxthechurch.net/?p=355


  • #53
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Where you get two or more people in a room there's going to be corruption, and the thieves and power-hungry will always follow the money. It is a gross simplification bordering on wilful ignorance to say that an organisation such as a church (or any other kind of community-based organisation, for that matter) should divest its own collections of art: being a bastion of culture for going on 1500 years it is a reminder in this increasingly quick-buck time that there is such a thing as culture, and it is worth fighting for.


  • #54
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    It's not like the art they sell is going to be destroyed. I'm sure there are plenty of museums out there that would be fu*ken delighted for the chance to purchased a fraction of what the vatican has. Meaning it would be still possible for the public to view it.

    Also don't forget about the Vatican's stash of priceless art that they hoard away in vaults that won't ever be seen by joe public ever again for one reason or another. If these were sold off to a museum the world would be a better place for it. Joe public would have some great art to ogle and the church would have some more money to spend on the poor.

    I don't think it's immoral to be rich or to accumulate wealth in any form. The church has a fairly different opinion on this to me tho so no matter what way you look at it they are massive hypocrites as long as they remain seated atop the massive heap of gold that they currently are.


  • #55
    poundapunnet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭poundapunnet


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure they have enough property in this country to sell off, let them start with that.

    A good friend of mine works for a charity that recently received a sizeable donation of lands and buildings an order of nuns. It was nice of them, but a cynical person might note that it also puts the order in a position where they can reasonably claim they don't have the assets to cover compensations claims that may be brought against them. The Catholic church has consistently and bullheadedly resisted handing out compensation for victims and has been very careful about setting legal precedents.

    It's an amazing collection of art in the Vatican, but it's in the hands of an organisation that's been a war-mongering rape machine (which, credit where credit's due, has paid for many many pretty paintings, let's not lose perspective like :rolleyes:) for several centuries, sell it off to museums and compensate the victims ffs. As a Catholic poster pointed out above, money breeds corruption, get rid of the ****ing money so.


  • #56
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Why wouldn't the CatholicChurch bullheadedly fight against compensation: the alternative is to leave itself open to every tomdickandharry who sees an opportunity of a quick payout. It is naive to think they should act otherwise.


  • #57
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    catallus wrote: »
    Why wouldn't the CatholicChurch bullheadedly fight against compensation: the alternative is to leave itself open to every tomdickandharry who sees an opportunity of a quick payout. It is naive to think they should act otherwise.

    Yeah because there is no evidence at all that people were molested and so on .......


  • #58
    poundapunnet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭poundapunnet


    catallus wrote: »
    Why wouldn't the CatholicChurch bullheadedly fight against compensation: the alternative is to leave itself open to every tomdickandharry who sees an opportunity of a quick payout. It is naive to think they should act otherwise.

    So they plump for option a: hang on to their assets and leave genuine victims with no compensation? If that was a multi-national organisation I'd be critical of the cruelty but I'd understand, as a church which nominally advocates compassion and lack of attachment to material gain the hypocrisy is staggering (and yet completely not surprising).


  • #59
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Genuine victims have been and are being compensated, you really should read the news: just because the church didn't opt for the option of paying every person who came along saying they were abused they deserve to be called hypocrites? Maybe they are hypocrites but show me someone who isn't.


  • #60
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    catallus wrote: »
    Genuine victims have been and are being compensated, you really should read the news: just because the church didn't opt for the option of paying every person who came along saying they were abused they deserve to be called hypocrites? Maybe they are hypocrites but show me someone who isn't.

    Yeah them cheque’s are flying out alright ..


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  • #61
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
    By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
    In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.

    But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine.
    He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
    On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him.
    Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.


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