Pope criticises the idolatry of wealth. Is the Vatican art and gold all fake?

WilyCoyote

Coming from a fella that lives in a huge palace, has lowly paid servants, dresses in fine clothes and never did a day's work in his life, he has a cheek to tell people that wealth and it's ecoutrements are wrong.

Pope Francis 'Evangelii Gaudium' Calls For Renewal Of Roman Catholic Church, Attacks 'Idolatry Of Money'
Reuters | By Naomi O'Leary


(Reuters) - Pope Francis called for renewal of the Roman Catholic Church and attacked unfettered capitalism as "a new tyranny", urging global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality in the first major work he has authored alone as pontiff.

The 84-page document, known as an apostolic exhortation, amounted to an official platform for his papacy, building on views he has aired in sermons and remarks since he became the first non-European pontiff in 1,300 years in March.

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the "idolatry of money" and beseeching politicians to guarantee all citizens "dignified work, education and healthcare".

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. "Just as the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say 'thou shalt not' to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills," Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

"How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?"

The pope said renewal of the Church could not be put off and said the Vatican and its entrenched hierarchy "also need to hear the call to pastoral conversion".

"I prefer a Church which is bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets, rather than a Church which is unhealthy from being confined and from clinging to its own security," he wrote.


In July, Francis finished an encyclical begun by Pope Benedict but he made clear that it was largely the work of his predecessor, who resigned in February.

Called "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), the exhortation is presented in Francis' simple and warm preaching style, distinct from the more academic writings of former popes, and stresses the Church's central mission of preaching "the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ".

In it, he reiterated earlier statements that the Church cannot ordain women or accept abortion. The male-only priesthood, he said, "is not a question open to discussion" but women must have more influence in Church leadership.

POVERTY

A meditation on how to revitalize a Church suffering from encroaching secularization in Western countries, the exhortation echoed the missionary zeal more often heard from the evangelical Protestants who have won over many disaffected Catholics in the pope's native Latin America.

In it, economic inequality features as one of the issues Francis is most concerned about, and the 76-year-old pontiff calls for an overhaul of the financial system and warns that unequal distribution of wealth inevitably leads to violence.

"As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world's problems or, for that matter, to any problems," he wrote.

Denying this was simple populism, he called for action "beyond a simple welfare mentality" and added: "I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor."

Since his election, Francis has set an example for austerity in the Church, living in a Vatican guest house rather than the ornate Apostolic Palace, travelling in a Ford Focus, and last month suspending a bishop who spent millions of euros on his luxurious residence.

He chose to be called "Francis" after the medieval Italian saint of the same name famed for choosing a life of poverty.

Stressing cooperation among religions, Francis quoted the late Pope John Paul II's idea that the papacy might be reshaped to promote closer ties with other Christian churches and noted lessons Rome could learn from the Orthodox such as "synodality" or decentralized leadership.

He praised cooperation with Jews and Muslims and urged Islamic countries to guarantee their Christian minorities the same religious freedom as Muslims enjoy in the West.

Cool_CM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Coming from a fella that lives in a huge palace, has lowly paid servants, dresses in fine clothes and never did a day's work in his life, he has a cheek to tell people that wealth and it's ecoutrements are wrong.

Pope Francis 'Evangelii Gaudium' Calls For Renewal Of Roman Catholic Church, Attacks 'Idolatry Of Money'
Reuters | By Naomi O'Leary


(Reuters) - Pope Francis called for renewal of the Roman Catholic Church and attacked unfettered capitalism as "a new tyranny", urging global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality in the first major work he has authored alone as pontiff.

The 84-page document, known as an apostolic exhortation, amounted to an official platform for his papacy, building on views he has aired in sermons and remarks since he became the first non-European pontiff in 1,300 years in March.

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the "idolatry of money" and beseeching politicians to guarantee all citizens "dignified work, education and healthcare".

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. "Just as the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say 'thou shalt not' to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills," Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

"How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?"

The pope said renewal of the Church could not be put off and said the Vatican and its entrenched hierarchy "also need to hear the call to pastoral conversion".

"I prefer a Church which is bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets, rather than a Church which is unhealthy from being confined and from clinging to its own security," he wrote.


In July, Francis finished an encyclical begun by Pope Benedict but he made clear that it was largely the work of his predecessor, who resigned in February.

Called "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), the exhortation is presented in Francis' simple and warm preaching style, distinct from the more academic writings of former popes, and stresses the Church's central mission of preaching "the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ".

In it, he reiterated earlier statements that the Church cannot ordain women or accept abortion. The male-only priesthood, he said, "is not a question open to discussion" but women must have more influence in Church leadership.

POVERTY

A meditation on how to revitalize a Church suffering from encroaching secularization in Western countries, the exhortation echoed the missionary zeal more often heard from the evangelical Protestants who have won over many disaffected Catholics in the pope's native Latin America.

In it, economic inequality features as one of the issues Francis is most concerned about, and the 76-year-old pontiff calls for an overhaul of the financial system and warns that unequal distribution of wealth inevitably leads to violence.

"As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world's problems or, for that matter, to any problems," he wrote.

Denying this was simple populism, he called for action "beyond a simple welfare mentality" and added: "I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor."

Since his election, Francis has set an example for austerity in the Church, living in a Vatican guest house rather than the ornate Apostolic Palace, travelling in a Ford Focus, and last month suspending a bishop who spent millions of euros on his luxurious residence.

He chose to be called "Francis" after the medieval Italian saint of the same name famed for choosing a life of poverty.

Stressing cooperation among religions, Francis quoted the late Pope John Paul II's idea that the papacy might be reshaped to promote closer ties with other Christian churches and noted lessons Rome could learn from the Orthodox such as "synodality" or decentralized leadership.

He praised cooperation with Jews and Muslims and urged Islamic countries to guarantee their Christian minorities the same religious freedom as Muslims enjoy in the West.

Have you read anything about the new pope? He seems to be doing a lot more than he predecessors and has shunned a lot of the traditional 'perks of the job'.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/13/jorge-mario-bergoglio-pope-poverty

catallus

OP, Your understanding of what the pope was saying seems to be limited to his pronouncement on money and even then your understanding of what he was saying is hopelessly blinkered. Your concept of wealth, money and inequality seems to be sadly juvenile if you think the vatican is anything very special from that point of view.

Are you supposed to link entire articles like that anyway?

Festy

What about all the idolatry in the Catholic church ? Mary worship/statues etc... :pac:

WilyCoyote

catallus wrote: »

OP, Your understanding of what the pope was saying seems to be limited to his pronouncement on money and even then your understanding of what he was saying is hopelessly blinkered. Your concept of wealth, money and inequality seems to be sadly juvenile if you think the vatican is anything very special from that point of view.

Are you supposed to link entire articles like that anyway?

Not limited to his talking about wealth but I didn't think there was a need to ask if the church had really changed it's views on torture and slavery .......... El castrati and Magdalene laundries - to name but two.
If asking a pertinent question is juvenile to you perhaps you jumped too high after leaving Bebo.

Me?

The corporation has to diversify to keep it's customers happy. You need a new sales pitch when the baskets are not filling up.

darkpagandeath

Yeah it's not like the catholic church has it's own country is it....

kneemos

Me? wrote: »

The corporation has to diversify to keep it's customers happy. You need a new sales pitch when the baskets are not filling up.

They're doing a Michael O' Leary you reackon.

Me?

kneemos wrote: »

They're doing a Michael O' Leary you reackon.

Yes, hence the new CEO put in before the other boy's tenure was up.

A lá carte Catholicism will be available soon if it keeps the thrones golden.

beauf

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Coming from a fella that lives in a huge palace, has lowly paid servants, dresses in fine clothes and never did a day's work in his life, he has a cheek to tell people that wealth and it's ecoutrements are wrong. ....

Out of curiosity I looked his wiki up...

...Born in Buenos Aires as the son of Italian parents, Bergoglio worked briefly as a chemical technician before entering seminary....graduated with a chemical technician's diploma.[29] He worked for a few years in that capacity in the foods section at Hickethier-Bachmann Laboratory...

pale blue dot cotton

This Priest knows the score.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy1lPOzDvs4

catallus

So you just post up a Reuters copyrighted article, preceded by a cheap and brainless quip about how they have nice buildings in Rome etc... and then give a misleading thread title, and when I make a reasonable comment you bring up totally irrelevancies about historical and emotive issues which were caused by the social constructs of the respective countries in which they occurred. You, sir, would make Goebbels blush. You asked no pertinent questions, you just like to feed on the hatred of the mob. You are a sad little man who likes to feel big by spitting bile.

Me?

catallus wrote: »

So you just post up a Reuters copyrighted article, preceded by a cheap and brainless quip about how they have nice buildings in Rome etc... and then give a misleading thread title, and when I make a reasonable comment you bring up totally irrelevancies about historical and emotive issues which were caused by the social constructs of the respective countries in which they occurred. You, sir, would make Goebbels blush. You asked no pertinent questions, you just like to feed on the hatred of the mob. You are a sad little man who likes to feel big by spitting bile.

Are you looking in a mirror or having a pop at the OP?

catallus

Me? wrote: »

Are you looking in a mirror or having a pop at the OP?

Really?

Me?

catallus wrote: »

Really?

No not really.

HerrScheisse

The wealth and habits of the Vatican existed before this man became Pope.

By all accounts, it is a role he never pandered for. By records, he never sought wealth, and could be considered a true carer of people. He would take the bus, the train, the normal transport of everyday people. Once elected, he sought simple accomodation, never once taking the palatial Papal apartments except for official meetings.

Post conclave, the following days he went to the hotels he stayed and paid his bills in person. The previous days I saw a report of him embracing a severly deformed man, castigating wealth as a goal in life.

He is a humble man. Pope or not, he has my utmost respect and best wishes.

Einhard

If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge. And yet, some dopes, for reasons to do with nothing other than a hatred of the Church, would seek to have this collection sold and broken up. To be bought by billionaires and squirreled away for their pleasure alone. What a dumb idea. I wish people would think a moment before blathering on.

mikom

HerrScheisse wrote: »

The previous days I saw a report of him embracing a severly deformed man

Hero........

HerrScheisse

mikom wrote: »

Hero........

Yes hero indeed!

The man was outcast in his home town. This simple gesture humanised him in the eyes of others, gave him hope and acceptance. And this frm the mans own words. What alternative do you offer - hero?

wretcheddomain

catallus wrote: »

So you just post up a Reuters copyrighted article, preceded by a cheap and brainless quip about how they have nice buildings in Rome etc... and then give a misleading thread title, and when I make a reasonable comment you bring up totally irrelevancies about historical and emotive issues which were caused by the social constructs of the respective countries in which they occurred. You, sir, would make Goebbels blush. You asked no pertinent questions, you just like to feed on the hatred of the mob. You are a sad little man who likes to feel big by spitting bile.

:rolleyes:

diomed

To keep the OP happy maybe they could sell the roof of the Sistine Chapel to a Las Vegas casino.

Tiddlypeeps

Einhard wrote: »

If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge. And yet, some dopes, for reasons to do with nothing other than a hatred of the Church, would seek to have this collection sold and broken up. To be bought by billionaires and squirreled away for their pleasure alone. What a dumb idea. I wish people would think a moment before blathering on.

Which would you consider to be more Jesus like? Selling everything of value you own that you don't strictly need to feed the hungry and house the homeless or amassing a huge amount of priceless artefacts so that people wealthy enough to visit can view them for free.

It would be pretty selfish of anyone to push for the later.

Me?

wretcheddomain wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It looks worse enlarged. Is that a case of attacking the poster? Runs off to charter..

mikom

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Yes hero indeed!

The man was outcast in his home town. This simple gesture humanised him in the eyes of others, gave him hope and acceptance. And this frm the mans own words. What alternative do you offer - hero?

We all have softer sides............ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sDiV_Fyg9oY/UQeJRC2Il2I/AAAAAAABaOo/nRBXYM5TCPc/s1600/Every-man-woman-and-child-desires-simply-to-touch-the-hand-of-the-greatest-hero-who-ever-lived-Adolf-Hitler.jpg

Benny_Cake

Einhard wrote: »

If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge. And yet, some dopes, for reasons to do with nothing other than a hatred of the Church, would seek to have this collection sold and broken up. To be bought by billionaires and squirreled away for their pleasure alone. What a dumb idea. I wish people would think a moment before blathering on.

This. Should the Vatican have acquired all that art in past centuries? Definitely not. Now that it is there though, why should it go to private collections. It's part of the cultural heritage of humanity and should be accessible to as many people as possible, which it currently is provided you can make it to Rome.

darkpagandeath

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Which would you consider to be more Jesus like? Selling everything of value you own that you don't strictly need to feed the hungry and house the homeless or amassing a huge amount of priceless artefacts so that people wealthy enough to visit can view them for free.

It would be pretty selfish of anyone to push for the later.

But but baby Jesus loved Gold , frankincense and Myrrh sure having loads of art, statues and alike show your in touch with the people you know the poor. I'm sure flying to the Vatican is really cheap and if you cant afford to go view this stuff the local church will pay for you to go no problem.

awec

Perhaps they should sell just a little bit (just a teeny bit) of their vast collection of wealth off, and send the money over here to finally pay off the bill they were issued for the crimes they have committed in this country, which to date they have lacked the decency to pay.

Once they pay that, people can go back to telling us how amazing it is that this tax exempt, richest organisation in the world and the worlds largest landowner which is supposedly all about helping people has such an amazing collection of very expensive art that we can all enjoy for free. I am sure all those very poor Catholics all around the world, many of whom I am sure are struggling to feed themselves but no doubt are willing to put pennies into the ever-begging church coffers are delighted to know that they can go look at some statues and paintings in Rome if they want.

Benny_Cake

awec wrote: »

Perhaps they should sell just a little bit (just a teeny bit) of their vast collection of wealth off, and send the money over here to finally pay off the bill they were issued for the crimes they have committed in this country, which to date they have lacked the decency to pay.

Once they pay that, people can go back to telling us how amazing it is that this tax exempt, richest organisation in the world and the worlds largest landowner which is supposedly all about helping people has such an amazing collection of very expensive art that we can all enjoy for free. I am sure all those very poor Catholics all around the world, many of whom I am sure are struggling to feed themselves but no doubt are willing to put pennies into the ever-begging church coffers are delighted to know that they can go look at some statues and paintings in Rome if they want.

I'm pretty sure they have enough property in this country to sell off, let them start with that.

NuckingFacker

Einhard wrote: »

If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge. And yet, some dopes, for reasons to do with nothing other than a hatred of the Church, would seek to have this collection sold and broken up. To be bought by billionaires and squirreled away for their pleasure alone. What a dumb idea. I wish people would think a moment before blathering on.

Yeah, me too. But then I read in some book that followers of Christ should sell their posessions and give the money to the poor and live a humble life. The Vatican seems to have missed that one a bit, as has the entire church. It's why I don't go any more. Because they cherry pick the bits they like and flatly ignore the main teneths of the faith. Which is mad, hypocritical and to me, disgusting. But that's just me. The whole "loving" bit seems to have passed them by a tad too. Sadly, that only leaves the cod-ology of a pantomime church founded on sand rather than the foundations laid by the New testament.

BTW, I like the new lad and he's pointed in the right direction, but if he really did fcuk with the money, he'd be out so fast his sandals wouldn't touch the temple floor. Windowdressing is tolerated, and that's all this is.

Paramite Pie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Coming from a fella that lives in a huge palace, has lowly paid servants, dresses in fine clothes and never did a day's work in his life, he has a cheek to tell people that wealth and it's ecoutrements are wrong.

He didn't run for pope, he was nominated.
He hasn't been pope for life.
You don't know what work he has or hasn't done.
He doesn't wear the usual pope clothes, and has shunned the fancy hat.
The huge palace was built hundreds of years ago. It's essentially an artifact.
He's always been critical of the wealth of the church.
It's not a crime to run a museum or tourist attraction. The wealth has been accumulated and inherited over a thousand years.
And finally, art is only valuable because rich people want to pay extortionate amounts of money for it. If they had no interest in DaVinci's work then the Vatican would be broke.

I'm not a catholic nor a believer in anything but I think your over reacting. It's very easy to criticise.

I do believe the Vatican should make better use of their money and donate it away, or use the money they earn from tourism to better effect.

awec

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they have enough property in this country to sell off, let them start with that.

I'm not fussy.

Me?

I know I contributed to this thread but is not more suited to some other forum?

One over there

---

>


Edit: Ha ha, I just realised what I did.

mikom

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

HerrScheisse

mikom wrote: »

We all have softer sides............ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sDiV_Fyg9oY/UQeJRC2Il2I/AAAAAAABaOo/nRBXYM5TCPc/s1600/Every-man-woman-and-child-desires-simply-to-touch-the-hand-of-the-greatest-hero-who-ever-lived-Adolf-Hitler.jpg[/QUOTE]

Are you supporting Hitler or castigating Francis?

Hitler may have had a soft side as do many baby kissing politicians, but nobody can deny the evil he brought onto the world.

What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.

Zebra3

Einhard wrote: »

If I go to the Vatican, i get to see one of the most pricless treasuries of art, architecture, and historical artefacts ever collected, and I get to appreciate it for free or at a minimal charge.

€14 when I was there.

Hardly minimal. :rolleyes:

Me?

HerrScheisse wrote: »

mikom wrote: »

We all have softer sides............ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sDiV_Fyg9oY/UQeJRC2Il2I/AAAAAAABaOo/nRBXYM5TCPc/s1600/Every-man-woman-and-child-desires-simply-to-touch-the-hand-of-the-greatest-hero-who-ever-lived-Adolf-Hitler.jpg[/QUOTE]

Are you supporting Hitler or castigating Francis?

Hitler may have had a soft side as do many baby kissing politicians, but nobody can deny the evil he brought onto the world.

What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.

Hitler and the Catholic church, this thread is now going to be full of funny.

OttoPilot

I don't think the pope would have the authority to sell off anything, they aren't his artefacts and gold to sell.

darkpagandeath

Zebra3 wrote: »

€14 when I was there.

Hardly minimal. :rolleyes:

But but That goes to feed the poor does it not ? They would never spend the revenue generated on admin and running cost would they ?

mikom

HerrScheisse wrote: »

What did Francis do that upsets you so? No Pope can change an embedded culture overnight, and besides doctrine is not easy to change, but this man has certainly done his best to be human regardless of that. What did he do that is so wrong I ask? I see a remarkable man, regardless of the garb of office. A fine example of humanity.

Get back to me when this leader of the church has made good on the harm the organisation caused in Ireland.

Benny_Cake

awec wrote: »

I'm not fussy.

Actually, one answer might be if they donated some of the good stuff to our National Gallery as a downpayment. Good stuff mind you, no crap.

WilyCoyote

diomed wrote: »

To keep the OP happy maybe they could sell the roof of the Sistine Chapel to a Las Vegas casino.

Or The Rathkeale Rovers get the ladders out?

darkpagandeath

What's the average price of these Mary statues all over the shop btw ? as they put a new very large one up near me and it looks like white marble on a granite pedestal.

HerrScheisse

mikom wrote: »

Get back to me when this leader of the church has made good on the harm the organisation caused in Ireland.

Hate the crime, not the man. As he would. As any moral normal thinking person would.

kneemos

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Actually, one answer might be if they donated some of the good stuff to our National Gallery as a downpayment. Good stuff mind you, no crap.

They'll slip you a micky given half a chance.

mikom

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Hate the crime, not the man. As he would. As any moral normal thinking person would.

Hate the crime, move the priest to another parish.
As any large religious organisation would

Paramite Pie

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But but That goes to feed the poor does it not ? They would never spend the revenue generated on admin and running cost would they ?

Medieval Art is expensive to maintain. It deteriorates very quickly. Not many collectors would have the money or resources to look after these works of art. As long as that 14 euro is spent on preservation then I'd be okay with that.

But yeah they could do alot more for the poor.

darkpagandeath

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Medieval Art is expensive to maintain. It deteriorates very quickly. Not many collectors would have the money or resources to look after these works of art. As long as that 14 euro is spent on preservation then I'd be okay with that.

But yeah they could do alot more for the poor.

You mean money to maintain there own collection ?

HerrScheisse

mikom wrote: »

Hate the crime, move the priest to another parish.
As any large religious organisation would

I am not disagreeing with you there. Despicable.

But Francis had no part in that. You cannot cast them all in the same light. Though it would have been better if his predecessor actually backed up words with acts such as excommunication.

mikom

HerrScheisse wrote: »

I am not disagreeing with you there. Despicable.

But Francis had no part in that. You cannot cast them all in the same light. Though it would have been better if his predecessor actually backed up words with acts such as excommunication.

It's all ahead of Franky so.
He'll have to take time out from hugging deformed blokes though.....

wendell borton

A differentiation between wealth and artwork and architecture should be made. Some of the greatest artists of all time have been patronised by the church and during darker times maintained learning and culture that would otherwise been lost which is probably one of the church's greatest legacies.

But on the other hand the church has had some very dodgy financial dealings fuelled by greed and lust for wealth and power resulting in all sorts of crime including murder.

HerrScheisse

Come on. Be realistic. What do you expect?

Do you think he will reject all doctrine, turn an entire administration upside down, sell off all assets?

I think he could do that and you would still criticise him. And what do you have against him showing compassion?