ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

Ace2007 · 23-11-2013 09:42PM

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Was just going to post the same - there has to be some sort of transparency for union monies, so how could they tie themselves to an action financially and not be party to it? No doubt it's union-organised, but surely they're not attached in any tangible way.

because like most people they probably are using their emotions and not thinking of the consequences. Will lose a lot more than their pension by the end of it.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 09:43PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

you think they have union money? - so what they are doing is illegal, as union members have a right to know where money goes.

I'd imagine you could make a gratuity or a fundraiser.

Ace2007 · 23-11-2013 09:46PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I'd imagine you could make a gratuity or a fundraiser.

for 4 people to take legal action?

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 09:49PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

for 4 people to take legal action?

Yes- this is speculation,

We will see when case hits court. Perhaps they are taking it themselves - if they are they will lose.

How are they taking on the ESB - you can't without money - the ESB will have best legal team in the country.

P_1 · 23-11-2013 09:49PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The only problem is , there is a certain generation - I'll put myself in this.

Say 20 to 40 - the sort of post miner strike group - who have been brainwashed , by Ryanair - PDs - FG, That the union movement is the source of all evil and without them we would be free and wealthy. It is a bit frightening the attitude that has been brainwashed into fairly intelligent friends of mine.

If there was no unions in Ireland - min wages would be lower - profits of large industry would be maximised further - your working hours would be longer - holidays shorter. That is right and that is what great companies (like the esb) do , that is why they are good.

No mater what , you have to have an opposing power to raw capitalism. You have to in a way accept the extremes will be part of forming a sensible moderate opposing force, to raw - profit driven capitalism.

Imagine the likes of Tesco - Ryainair - small businesses, having a free run at terms and conditions of employment in this country. You see the likes of IBEC and SME groups that you see on prime time and VB, they would make us slaves if they could. They almost have.

Yeah that is true, I dunno it seems to me though that union management seems to be either a)too close or cosy to the establishment (eg Begg) or b)just out to make a name for themselves and feck everybody else (eg Ogle).

Rabelais · 23-11-2013 09:58PM

I've posted before, and have tremendous sympathy for the ESB employees on this pension scheme. The nature of my job means I work with members of the ESB and ESBI on a daily basis. There is a lot of concern in there. I deal with one individual who has worked there for over 25 years. Extremely competent and good to work with (and my company would be in indirect competition for one of their high-value markets). He joined the company and thus the pension scheme. Paid in ~7% of his wages for over 25 years. Had no choice in the matter. With <10 years to go he is promised €13 a week when he retires, and with no ability to get a State pension. He's on a good wage at the moment, but no more than he would get if he came to work for us.

They could sell off ESB International. That should get them over a billion if they were to sell. And there is the question of whether the Irish State should be the majority stakeholder in an international electricity consultancy. Not sure of the market value of ESB Telecoms, but it has to have gone up in value since they announced the decision to roll out fibre Internet to most of the country. They could just sell the ability to wrap fibre around their low-voltage network, instead of doing it themselves, but that would involve major delays. UPC, SKY, Eircom and RTE all rely on the current ESB fibre network, so it has to be valuable.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 09:59PM

The only people unions support are the well healed in the public and private sector, people on the minimum wage do not come on their richter scale as being worthy. Do they represent intern kids that are subsidized by the dole, and taken on as cheap labour. No the beards are starting to take a hit because of the numbers of the well healed taking early retirement, hopefully it will be soon, and maybe unions can grow again, like Larkin and Connelly dreamed of. Liberty Hall is an ugly monument to the people in the union leadership that sucked from the public tit in the celtic tiger years. It is good to see the application for it's demolition, it should be left a vacant site when that is done.

Ace2007 · 23-11-2013 10:00PM

Rabelais wrote: »

I've posted before, and have tremendous sympathy for the ESB employees on this pension scheme. The nature of my job means I work with members of the ESB and ESBI on a daily basis. There is a lot of concern in there. I deal with one individual who has worked there for over 25 years. Extremely competent and good to work with (and my company would be in indirect competition for one of their high-value markets). He joined the company and thus the pension scheme. Paid in ~7% of his wages for over 25 years. Had no choice in the matter. With <10 years to go he is promised €13 a week when he retires, and with no ability to get a State pension. He's on a good wage at the moment, but no more than he would get if he came to work for us.

They could sell off ESB International. That should get them over a billion if they were to sell. And there is the question of whether the Irish State should be the majority stakeholder in an international electricity consultancy. Not sure of the market value of ESB Telecoms, but it has to have gone up in value since they announced the decision to roll out fibre Internet to most of the country. They could just sell the ability to wrap fibre around their low-voltage network, instead of doing it themselves, but that would involve major delays. UPC, SKY, Eircom and RTE all rely on the current ESB Network, so it has to be valuable.

I don't think you understand how pensions work, there is no obligation on ESB to sell to fix the deficit, they can't decide tomorrow to just wind up the scheme, and the younger members will be worse affected.

What happens if they sell every asset they own, and in 5 years time the scheme goes bank into deficit, what then?

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:03PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The only problem is , there is a certain generation - I'll put myself in this.

Say 20 to 40 - the sort of post miner strike group - who have been brainwashed , by Ryanair - PDs - FG, That the union movement is the source of all evil and without them we would be free and wealthy. It is a bit frightening the attitude that has been brainwashed into fairly intelligent friends of mine.

If there was no unions in Ireland - min wages would be lower - profits of large industry would be maximised further - your working hours would be longer - holidays shorter. That is right and that is what great companies (like the esb) do , that is why they are good.

No mater what , you have to have an opposing power to raw capitalism. You have to in a way accept the extremes will be part of forming a sensible moderate opposing force, to raw - profit driven capitalism.

Imagine the likes of Tesco - Ryainair - small businesses, having a free run at terms and conditions of employment in this country. You see the likes of IBEC and SME groups that you see on prime time and VB, they would make us slaves if they could. They almost have.

You are thinking the celtic cat years, what is happening now with workers, unions mean nothing for the people that are given short term contracts, get a grip the unions sold their members out.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:04PM

Great post - I think people on here - don't get the the work the lads in ESB do is highly skilled - they sort of lump them in with handy state jobs. You have people saying send in the army and that - it is not like that at all - and it takes 10 to 15 years in a certain part of the sector to be any sort of competent individual.

The industry they are in - is one of the biggest in the world - the money is very good in Energy, and the good lads in the ESB are up there with anything out there.

I've worked in HR - People go on about the average wage in Ireland here - that is wrong - The Energy sector is one of the best to be in.

tayto lover · 23-11-2013 10:04PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs

A wee song for yis to listen to while you work

:D:D

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:09PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

You are thinking the celtic cat years, what is happening now with workers, unions mean nothing for the people that are given short term contracts, get a grip the unions sold their members out.

They should form a union. Or join one.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:14PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Great post - I think people on here - don't get the the work the lads in ESB do is highly skilled - they sort of lump them in with handy state jobs. You have people saying send in the army and that - it is not like that at all - and it takes 10 to 15 years in a certain part of the sector to be any sort of competent individual.

The industry they are in - is one of the biggest in the world - the money is very good in Energy, and the good lads in the ESB are up there with anything out there.

I've worked in HR - People go on about the average wage in Ireland here - that is wrong - The Energy sector is one of the best to be in.

Agreed, for the selfish, when everyone was taking a severe cutback in their wages, these guys were getting an increase as we were getting an increase in our bills. Heros the lot of them, go on strike in the winter months and you will see what the hard pressed people think of ye. Ogle says you are pampered with subsidized electricity, while everyone else freezes.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:16PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

They should form a union. Or join one.

Try and experience reality.

tayto lover · 23-11-2013 10:17PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Agreed, for the selfish, when everyone was taking a severe cutback in their wages, these guys were getting an increase as we were getting an increase in our bills. Heros the lot of them, go on strike in the winter months and you will see what the hard pressed people think of ye. Ogle says you are pampered with subsidized electricity, while everyone else freezes.

I'd say very few took that.
More like it was imposed on them and they refused to fight.
Fair play to the ESB and the teachers who are fighting.
Very few cuts for the elite in society. They're hardly even taxed.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:18PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Agreed, for the selfish, when everyone was taking a severe cutback in their wages, these guys were getting an increase as we were getting an increase in our bills. Heros the lot of them, go on strike in the winter months and you will see what the hard pressed people think of ye. Ogle says you are pampered with subsidized electricity, while everyone else freezes.

There were large cut backs in ESB wages - it was in paper 10 to 20 %. Staff were reduced and locations were closed.

The price of electricity has nothing to do with the ESB. It is set by the regulator.

It was set high to enable wind and new entrants.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:21PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There were large cut backs in ESB wages - it was in paper 10 to 20 %. Staff were reduced and locations were closed.

The price of electricity has nothing to do with the ESB. It is set by the regulator.

It was set high to enable wind and new entrants.

Did someone mention the word Regulater Jaysus where did you hear that one before.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:23PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Try and experience reality.

But - I've made the point that government have tried to get rid of unions and reduce power - this has worked. It is the main reason that terms and conditions of employment are so poor. The government have cancelled social partnership.
Everybody gained from social partnership - the union in fact established rights for all in this process.

This is the reason why , your terms are so poor. The government have disengaged with unions.

That is why, we are back at strikes - if nobody striked your terms and conditions would be a free for all.

Boombastic · 23-11-2013 10:26PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Agreed, for the selfish, when everyone was taking a severe cutback in their wages, these guys were getting an increase as we were getting an increase in our bills. Heros the lot of them, go on strike in the winter months and you will see what the hard pressed people think of ye. Ogle says you are pampered with subsidized electricity, while everyone else freezes.

We don't hear enough about this subsidized electricity when they begin bleating about how hard done by they are..they don't even have the same basic bills as most people

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:27PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Did someone mention the word Regulater Jaysus where did you hear that one before.

Yes agree - electricity was cheaper before that scam - of handing your money to private companies to push up the price of electricity.

The same has gone on in UK - the end game is the profit per customer has doubled in uk - and the jobs are yellow pack , short term.

Why would people think it is great for an employer to be able to do this - I agree it is awful what employers in UK and Ireland can do.

The only people who can and want an improvement for you is the union movement across the EU.

tayto lover · 23-11-2013 10:27PM

Boombastic wrote: »

We don't hear enough about this subsidized electricity when they begin bleating about how hard done by they are..they don't even have the same basic bills as most people

They get free milk too.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:29PM

Boombastic wrote: »

We don't hear enough about this subsidized electricity when they begin bleating about how hard done by they are..they don't even have the same basic bills as most people

But it is not unusual to have money off a product if you work there. Same in champion sports.

Ace2007 · 23-11-2013 10:29PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'd say very few took that.
More like it was imposed on them and they refused to fight.
Fair play to the ESB and the teachers who are fighting.
Very few cuts for the elite in society. They're hardly even taxed.

this is just going round in circles, who exactly are the members of the pension scheme fighting with? The ESB?, the government? the trustees? the investment managers? or is it just everyone?

in 2010 there was an agreement made, that ESB would put nearly 600m into the fund to cut the deficit to about 1.4 billion, why has it taken it 3 years for the members to start striking? how did any member think the deficit was going to be cleared?

People think they are entitled to everything here in Ireland - first world problems, there are countries in the world if you get sick and don't have insurance it's your tough sh!t, there are countries in the world where there is a chances their homes will be washed away or destroyed every year.

Here in Ireland people are complaining that they aren't getting a pension that someone told them they would get when they signed a contract, these same people are then saying that just cause you signed a contract to pay your mortgage that the banks shouldn't be allowed to force you out of the houses if repayments aren't met.

Do people not think what would happen if the ESB went broke, if they were sold to a new company who decided to not take on the scheme, or is it a case were people just signed a contract without reading the pension scheme rules?

There is an old saying - "shouldn't put on your eggs into one basket".

Pensions in Ireland is a walking time bomb, but this government just like with everything else they do don't give a Sh!t, kicking the can down the road they are.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:29PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But - I've made the point that government have tried to get rid of unions and reduce power - this has worked. It is the main reason that terms and conditions of employment are so poor. The government have cancelled social partnership.
Everybody gained from social partnership - the union in fact established rights for all in this process.

This is the reason why , your terms are so poor. The government have disengaged with unions.

That is why, we are back at strikes - if nobody striked your terms and conditions would be a free for all.

The reason the people lost is because the beards sold out, how much of a cut in salary did the beards take.

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

They get free milk too.

What is this about

:):D

Bloody milking it that.

Rabelais · 23-11-2013 10:30PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

I don't think you understand how pensions work, there is no obligation on ESB to sell to fix the deficit, they can't decide tomorrow to just wind up the scheme, and the younger members will be worse affected.

What happens if they sell every asset they own, and in 5 years time the scheme goes bank into deficit, what then?

There are lots of people working for the ESB who are on a DC pension. It doesn't bother them. Many of these problems have resulted from the inability of the ESB to borrow money on the bonds market. It's a microcosm of what is happening with the Sovereign.

The ESB found it as difficult to raise money during the collapse as the State did. They went from an A++ rating to not far off junk grade. The very markets that were investing in their pensions were marking Ireland - and the ESB - down as toxic.

The ESB wants lots of money. It needs this to bring high-speed Internet to homes where it hasn't been seen before; to invest in clean renewable energies; to develop new high voltage networks to areas that require electricity for the development of industry. It also needs to ensure that it allows the people who developed this world-class (genuinely) to have a retirement that they paid into. That might involve divesting of assets they own (as per my previous post).

I'm all in favour of competition and continuous development as a society. And companies developing new products and services that serve the consumer. I'm not in favour of employees getting fúcked over just so a balance sheet looks better.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:32PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes agree - electricity was cheaper before that scam - of handing your money to private companies to push up the price of electricity.

The same has gone on in UK - the end game is the profit per customer has doubled in uk - and the jobs are yellow pack , short term.

Why would people think it is great for an employer to be able to do this - I agree it is awful what employers in UK and Ireland can do.

The only people who can and want an improvement for you is the union movement across the EU.

The unions in this country have shown their true colours, and that colour is disgusting. Putrid pink.

Boombastic · 23-11-2013 10:34PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But it is not unusual to have money off a product if you work there. Same in champion sports.

what percentage though, and are you allowed mention it when crying?

FixdePitchmark · 23-11-2013 10:35PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The reason the people lost is because the beards sold out, how much of a cut in salary did the beards take.

Very little I'd say. But what does the beards mean.

The union movement - is like politics in a way. Anybody can rise to the top.
Some good , some bad.

It is just because we are in a country that voted in the PDs only a short while back. They come across as odd balls - they just have a different view on society.

It is like Joe Higgins - most people know he is off the wall - but he provides an opposing discourse - it is needed in a sensible democracy.

But in Ireland - we have a very small media - The Indo is very influential, it has cornered and categorised these people , who are fascinating in a way.

It is poor journalism in a way - I'd love to know who they are - why they have this view of life, what is their goals - what drives them.

Busted Flat. · 23-11-2013 10:40PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Very little I'd say. But what does the beards mean.

The union movement - is like politics in a way. Anybody can rise to the top.
Some good , some bad.

It is just because we are in a country that voted in the PDs only a short while back. They come across as odd balls - they just have a different view on society.

It is like Joe Higgins - most people know he is off the wall - but he provides an opposing discourse - it is needed in a sensible democracy.

But in Ireland - we have a very small media - The Indo is very influential, it has cornered and categorised these people , who are fascinating in a way.

It is poor journalism in a way - I'd love to know who they are - why they have this view of life, what is their goals - what drives them.

Instead of blaming it on the print media to support your post, why not ask the beards how much of a cut they took when everyone was forced to.
Ps I have no time for the print media. In the same cesspit really.

ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

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