The disappeared

Happyman42 · 22-11-2013 02:23PM

alastair wrote: »

And?

You were wrong?

alastair · 22-11-2013 02:25PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

You were wrong?

By my calendar, November 1995 precedes February 1996. Maybe it's another instance of your crystal ball?

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 02:36PM

Panorama on the MRF saw the BBC pussy-footing around with half-truths about the bigger picture as usual. The closest to the truth came from the ex-military police officer who said they'd just brought over their ways from Aden, Malaya, Cyprus etc.

Then John Ware couldn't resist throwing in a line at the end about the Brits (eventually) having “crippled” the IRA’s “ability to fight”, as if the death squad approach just had to be tweaked is all.

Peter Taylor used to be at that sh*t in his Troubles documentaries too, attempting to rewrite history and declare victory, to make it look like they negotiated out of the good of their civilized hearts, when actually it was the stalemate that paved the way for negotiations. Semtex, London, 1990s, anyone? Major was ordered to negotiate by the City of London.

It’s all reminiscent of Fisk's contention that the poppy mania is in large part an expression of sadness for the loss of empire. In 1967 the British lowered the flag in Aden in November. Their penultimate High Commissioner, Richard Turnbull, had already remarked on the setting sun to Defence Secretary Denis Healey. When the British Empire sinks beneath the waves of history only two things will be left – the game of association football and the expression “**** off”.

Happyman42 · 22-11-2013 02:37PM

alastair wrote: »

By my calendar, November 1995 precedes February 1996. Maybe it's another instance of your crystal ball?

I can do no more than offer evidence that a concession was made. Carry on Alastair, once again I am done.

alastair · 22-11-2013 03:12PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I can do no more than offer evidence that a concession was made. Carry on Alastair, once again I am done.

The problem is that it doesn't tally with the historical record. The twin-track approach to decommissioning dates back to 1995, and Major's government response to the Mitchell principles (a requirement for prior decommissioning or a combo of a ceasefire and participation in an elected forum) date to January of 1996. So Major was making no concession on May 16th of 1996.

Major stuck to the position he outlined in Jan of 96. And the truth is that SF ended up adhering to the same arrangement, albeit under Blair.

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 03:21PM

alastair wrote: »

And the truth is that SF ended up adhering to the same arrangement, albeit under Blair.

The placing of Paras at Drumcree might have done something (in good faith, for once) to help bring that about.

alastair · 22-11-2013 03:27PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

The placing of Paras at Drumcree might have done something (in good faith, for once) to help bring that about.

Maybe so, but what's clear is that the IRA campaign in England didn't actually get them any leverage beyond what was on offer beforehand. And Major's 'capitulation' of May looks pretty dusty, having already been offered in January (prior to the resumption of IRA violence).

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 03:32PM

What are you talking about? Canary Wharf was only a reminder of the stuff from the early Nineties, before even the Downing Street Declaration.

alastair · 22-11-2013 03:42PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

What are you talking about? Canary Wharf was only a reminder of the stuff from the early Nineties, before even the Downing Street Declaration.

So, a delayed reaction then, is your position?

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 04:12PM

Let me set it out simply for you so you can understand events.

On 3 November 1989 Peter Brooke became the first senior British politician to talk some sense on the issue. We cannot beat the IRA and the government should talk in return for a ceasefire. Of course there was uproar and condemnation rained down on him from practically all sides.

The IRA had by this time acquired Semtex, which it would soon combine with large amounts homemade fertilizer to bomb London with devastating effect e.g.

20/07/90: Stock Exchange (massive damage)

10/04/92: Baltic Exchange (£800 million worth of damage—£200 million more than the total damage costs resulting from all 10,000 previous explosions that had occurred relating to the Troubles)

24/04/93: Bishopsgate (The insurance payments required were so large that Lloyd's almost went bankrupt and there was a crisis in the London insurance market.)

Major signed the Downing Street Declaration on 15 December 1993, affirming both the right of the people of Ireland to self-determination and the principle that the people of the island of Ireland, North and South, had the exclusive right to solve the issues between North and South by mutual consent.

Bye bye now

alastair · 22-11-2013 04:40PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

Let me set it out simply for you so you can understand events.

On 3 November 1989 Peter Brooke became the first senior British politician to talk some sense on the issue. We cannot beat the IRA and the government should talk in return for a ceasefire. Of course there was uproar and condemnation rained down on him from practically all sides.

The IRA had by this time acquired Semtex, which it would soon combine with large amounts homemade fertilizer to bomb London with devastating effect e.g.

20/07/90: Stock Exchange (massive damage)

10/04/92: Baltic Exchange (£800 million worth of damage—£200 million more than the total damage costs resulting from all 10,000 previous explosions that had occurred relating to the Troubles)

24/04/93: Bishopsgate (The insurance payments required were so large that Lloyd's almost went bankrupt and there was a crisis in the London insurance market.)

Major signed the Downing Street Declaration on 15 December 1993, affirming both the right of the people of Ireland to self-determination and the principle that the people of the island of Ireland, North and South, had the exclusive right to solve the issues between North and South by mutual consent.

Bye bye now

What? No mention of the joint goverment declaration on the status of NI in the Anglo-Irish Agreement in '85. No mention of the first Hume Adams talks back in '88, or the ongoing damage the IRA campaign was undergoing on the back of military backlash and infiltration? No mention of the limitations of the SF electoral strategy with an on-going campaign of violence? Instead it's down to the repair bill for the Baltic exchange? Pray tell then why was The Hume-Adams process continuing when contacts between the IRA and UK government had shut down? It's as if the primary initiators of a negotiated settlement process were not in London, but in NI! But that can't be right - it wouldn't tally with this whole UK gov capitulates in the face of bombs meme. Remind me again what the UK government has actually given up over the course of all this?

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 04:50PM

alastair wrote: »

...the ongoing damage the IRA campaign was undergoing on the back of military backlash and infiltration?

...when contacts between the IRA and UK government had shut down?...

Remind me again what the UK government has actually given up over the course of all this?

(1) I love the way you're naive enough to use the words "damage" and "infiltration" in the same sentence about the IRA, after my last post.

(2) Thatcher told Brooke in 1990 to reopen contacts with the Provos.

(3) For a place "as British as Finchley" the UK government has given up practically everything except paying for it!

Now it really is time to say bye bye to you.

Busted Flat. · 22-11-2013 04:56PM

Some people can't handle the loss, but will keep trying to convince themselves they lost nothing. The war is over, move on and get over it.

alastair · 22-11-2013 05:02PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

(1) I love the way you're naive enough to use the words "damage" and "infiltration" in the same sentence about the IRA, after my last post.

Bully for you. The point still stands. They were hugely compromised.

HansHolzel wrote: »

(2) Thatcher told Brooke in 1990 to reopen contacts with the Provos.

Prior to the bulk of the London bombing campaign then? Doesn't really support that particular theory.

HansHolzel wrote: »

(3) For a place "as British as Finchley" the UK government has given up practically everything except paying for it!

It's still part of the UK, last I checked.

HansHolzel wrote: »

Now it really is time to say bye bye to you.

See you.

alastair · 22-11-2013 05:05PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Some people can't handle the loss, but will keep trying to convince themselves they lost nothing. The war is over, move on and get over it.

I'm guessing this isn't intended as satire?

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 05:10PM

alastair wrote: »

The point still stands. They were hugely compromised.

Prior to the bulk of the London bombing campaign then? Doesn't really support that particular theory.

It's still part of the UK, last I checked.

(1) Yeah, compromised, go tell it to London.

(2) The theory is fine once you understand/admit the contrast between Brooke's instructions from Thatcher (timid back-channel stuff) and Major signing the Downing Street document.

(3) So, what's happening to all your flegs?

alastair · 22-11-2013 05:26PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

(1) Yeah, compromised, go tell it to London.

Yep - they were compromised.

HansHolzel wrote: »

(2) The theory is fine once you understand/admit the contrast between Brooke's instructions from Thatcher (timid back-channel stuff) and Major signing the Downing Street document.

The Downing Street declaration was hardly much of a shift from the Anglo-Irish agreement, and was prompted by Hume-Adams outcome, not any bombing.

HansHolzel wrote: »

(3) So, what's happening to all your flegs?

Heh. You do like your blinkers, don't you? Flegs or no flegs (and as was pointed out - Belfast city hall's fleg policy now more accurately reflects typical UK municipal arrangements), it's as much a part of the UK as ever.

Happyman42 · 22-11-2013 05:42PM

Priceless stuff from somebody who cannot separate spin from actual events.

Across 3 threads Alastair your 'facts' have turned out to be just your opinion and interpretation.

Let the thread get back on topic.

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 06:49PM

Power-sharing and the fleg issue remind me of what Parnell thought of the 1881 Land Act. It didn’t abolish landlordism but made landlordism intolerable for the landlords.

But Alastair's new-found worship of the Anglo-Irish Agreement (a few civil servants in Hillsborough) and Hume-Adams evidently knows no bounds.

alastair · 22-11-2013 09:37PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Priceless stuff from somebody who cannot separate spin from actual events.

Across 3 threads Alastair your 'facts' have turned out to be just your opinion and interpretation.

Let the thread get back on topic.

Care to support that with anything of substance, or just happy to roll out yet another straw man?

alastair · 22-11-2013 09:42PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

Power-sharing and the fleg issue remind me of what Parnell thought of the 1881 Land Act. It didn’t abolish landlordism but made landlordism intolerable for the landlords.

But Alastair's new-found worship of the Anglo-Irish Agreement (a few civil servants in Hillsborough) and Hume-Adams evidently knows no bounds.

Well - that didn't last long.

Paisley and Adams both were of the opinion that the Anglo-Irish Agreement was rather more than a few civil servants going about their business. You can't argue with that sort of consensus - still, glad that they're continuing to act in union these days.

Busted Flat. · 22-11-2013 09:48PM

alastair wrote: »

Well - that didn't last long.

Paisley and Adams both were of the opinion that the Anglo-Irish Agreement was rather more than a few civil servants going about their business. You can't argue with that sort of consensus - still, glad that they're continuing to act in union these days.

It is impossible to turn the clock back. The future is out there for those that want a life, every young person in the six counties knows that. Except those that were raised on bigotry. The train has not fully left the station, there a few seats, and plenty of standing room left.

HansHolzel · 22-11-2013 10:09PM

alastair wrote: »

Paisley

1974, Sunningdale, who brought THAT down I wonder?

we still have a few slow learners of history

HansHolzel · 23-11-2013 11:01AM

alastair wrote: »

The Downing Street declaration was hardly much of a shift from the Anglo-Irish agreement

?

"Out, out, out"

anyone?

hello?

alastair · 23-11-2013 12:31PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

?

"Out, out, out"

anyone?

hello?

Remember this?

The two Governments

(a) affirm that any change in the status of Northern Ireland would only come about with the consent of a majority of' the people of' Northern Ireland;

(b) recognise that the present wish of a majority of' the people of' Northern Ireland is for no change in the status of Northern Ireland;

(c) declare that, if in the future a majority of the people of' Northern Ireland clearly wish for and formally consent to the establishment of a united Ireland, they will introduce and support in the respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish.

alastair · 23-11-2013 12:34PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

1974, Sunningdale, who brought THAT down I wonder?

we still have a few slow learners of history

Is there a relevant point in there?

Both Paisley and the IRA were opposed to Sunningdale, and determined to bring it down.

Both Paisley and the IRA were opposed to the Anglo Irish Agreement, and determined to bring it down.

Now you have SF and the DUP in cahoots, operating that self-same Sunningdale for slow learners. At least there's been consistency to the bedfellows.

HansHolzel · 23-11-2013 12:39PM

alastair wrote: »

Is there a relevant point in there?

Both Paisley and the IRA were opposed to Sunningdale, and determined to bring it down.

Both Paisley and the IRA were opposed to the Anglo Irish Agreement, and determined to bring it down.

Now you have SF and the DUP in cahoots, operating that self-same Sunningdale for slow learners. At least there's been consistency to the bedfellows.

It is an Orange fascist lie that the IRA brought down Sunningdale.

alastair · 23-11-2013 12:43PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

It is an Orange fascist lie that the IRA brought down Sunningdale.

Orange fascists? I don't think I've ever heard a loyalist claim the IRA brought down Sunningdale. They're quite proud to proclaim that they did. But I love your new fantasy and name-calling combo. Really compelling stuff.

HansHolzel · 23-11-2013 12:52PM

The cap fits. Wear it.

alastair · 23-11-2013 12:55PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

The cap fits. Wear it.

Oh, I'm the supposed 'Orange fascist'!? Even better! You're here all week, I take it?

The disappeared

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