The disappeared

junder

Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm

Mr.Micro

junder wrote: »

Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm

McKee was the old guy, who indicated that he would have done the execution of Jean McConville, if ordered at the time, despite disagreeing with it? Disgusting, and he living into old age, the irony. All those people executed on orders from revolting people like him and their evil power, no trial, no court, no justice. Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.

walshb

I was reading about McKee who said yes he would have executed Jean. I didn't read that he disagreed with her being executed. I read that he disagreed with hiding the body. Horrible people that can do this to other people.

nacho libre

Mr.Micro wrote: »

McKee was the old guy, who indicated that he would have done the execution of Jean McConville, if ordered at the time, despite disagreeing with it? Disgusting, and he living into old age, the irony. All those people executed on orders from revolting people like him and their evil power, no trial, no court, no justice. Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.

He agreed with the punishment for informing being execution.
He disagreed with the body of victims being hidden and deprived of a christian burial. He also mentioned that such things went on in the 1920s.

The IRA should have forced her out of the country, but there brutal logic must have been if they made an exception for her, then there would be less of a deterrent for others to inform.

Lingua Franca

Summary execution is shameful and abhorrent but never returning bodies to grieving families is a whole extra helping of cruelty.

junder wrote: »

People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

I can't watch the programme, was it solely about the IRA disappeared? I read today that Jean McConville's son has publically called for the UVF to come forward in regards to Lisa Dorrian as well, but the article wasn't clear about whether that was on the show or not. Her body should be less difficult to find since it was fairly recent.

How many are still missing?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.

Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld? I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.

junder

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Summary execution is shameful and abhorrent but never returning bodies to grieving families is a whole extra helping of cruelty.



I can't watch the programme, was it solely about the IRA disappeared? I read today that Jean McConville's son has publically called for the UVF to come forward in regards to Lisa Dorrian as well, but the article wasn't clear about whether that was on the show or not. Her body should be less difficult to find since it was fairly recent.

How many are still missing?




Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld? I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.

Jean mcconvilles body was never found under the 'disappeared' scheme which allowed for no criminal investigations to be held in relation to the body's locations being revealed. Her body was found by a member of the public and as such there is a criminal investigation which means in light of the accusations of Gerry Adams rank within the ira by 3 senior ira men and his alleged involvement in jean mcconvilles murder then he should be brought into answer questions

Malibu Stacy

Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.

Mr.Micro

Malibu Stacy wrote: »

Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.

I am probably off the mark, but perhaps its to undermine Adams for some reason?

Sierra Oscar

Malibu Stacy wrote: »

Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.

I would imagine that the issue will continue to come up again and again until the entire truth about the circumstances surrounding Jean McConville's death are revealed.

The murder is still being investigated by the PSNI, so it is no surprise that it still is being covered by the media.

COYW

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am probably off the mark, but perhaps its to undermine Adams for some reason?

I really don't think so. The whole issue of his child abusing brother would do that far more effectively than the 'was or wasn't he a terrorist' discussion. Adams and his cohorts are well used to dealing with the topic as a whole and SF voters look upon membership of the IRA as a badge of honour.

junder

nacho libre wrote: »

He agreed with the punishment for informing being execution.
He disagreed with the body of victims being hidden and deprived of a christian burial. He also mentioned that such things went on in the 1920s.

The IRA should have forced her out of the country, but there brutal logic must have been if they made an exception for her, then there would be less of a deterrent for others to inform.

I watched programme and billy was quite adamant that 'disappearing' people did not go on before and he was quite angrey that it had happened.

Crooked Jack

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld?

There are a number of bodies still missing. Seven I think. I doubt if any of them, bar the case of Lisa Dorrian, given that it's much more recent, are being deliberately withheld. It's more likely that over the course of 30 years people die and memories fade. They would have no reason not to give information if they had it. A number of digs have taken place and nothing found, which would indicate some people are trying to hand over info but either dont have it or cant recall it exactly.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains (ICLVR) was actually set up in response to a statement by the IRA about the disappeared. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/disappeared.htm Prior to this the case of the disappeared was not well known. A number of journalists were on radio earlier this week recalling the day of the IRA statement and none of them knew what they were referring to.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.

You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.

COYW

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's more likely that over the course of 30 years people die and memories fade.

I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.

Dubhlinner

COYW wrote: »

I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.

Landscape where one would bury bodies would change immensely over 40 years, and they could have been buried at night in areas not known well to those burying.

Crooked Jack

COYW wrote: »

I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.

You come down from Belfast 30 years ago in the middle of the night and dig a hole somewhere in a bog in Monaghan.
It's pretty easy to see how memories could fade and it would also explain digs that yielded nothing after information was given.

nacho libre

junder wrote: »

I watched programme and billy was quite adamant that 'disappearing' people did not go on before and he was quite angrey that it had happened.

You are right it was not mcKee who said it happened before, it was the narrator. Billy mc Kee was against it, so it never occurred under his watch, but he was not an IRA commander in the 20s and 30s.

Lingua Franca

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Landscape where one would bury bodies would change immensely over 40 years, and they could have been buried at night in areas not known well to those burying.

One of the problems with finding the body of Keith Bennett is that, according to the experts, the ground soil on Saddleworth Moor moves and slips over the bedrock over the years 'like a blanket on a bed" so although they have a reasonable idea as to where he was originally buried, his remains may have moved in any direction over the years. I'm sure there's places in Ireland like that too.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.

Mm. But I first heard it in the 80s, a decade or so before it made headlines.

Crooked Jack

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Mm. But I first heard it in the 80s, a decade or so before it made headlines.

Really? How? I was under the impression that practically nobody was aware of this before the IRA statement in 1999.

FTA69

Awful, awful stuff really. Whatever about debating the morality of shooting informers; disappearing the body of someone is never justified, regardless of whatever pressures the IRA may have been under at the time. To be blunt, if you're going to take the step of killing someone at least have the gumption to stand over it and explain why and allow the body to have a decent burial. Killing someone and then copping out of it completely is political cowardice to say the least.

Lingua Franca

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Really? How? I was under the impression that practically nobody was aware of this before the IRA statement in 1999.

It was quite openly discussed in republican circles. Joked about, even. I personally discussed it with my father and a certain young man who went on to become a respectable senior Sinn Fein figure and businessman.

Lingua Franca

...which is not to say that it couldn't be bull****. But the story was circulating a long, long time before the story was published in the book Killing Rage by Eamonn Collins in 1997, which in itself was before 1999.

Colonel Sanders

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The murder is still being investigated by the PSNI, so it is no surprise that it still is being covered by the media.

I didn't know this

How in gods name has Adams not been questioned repeatedly over this (or has he?)

I'm no legal expert so could someone tell me if the charge of "directing terrorism" be brought retrospectively for events before the legislation was enacted?

Godge

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.

Why is the meat grinder story more unlikely than the body being buried? It doesn't sound like something made up which makes it more likely than the alternative.

Are you in the know more than the dogs in the street about what happened?

Gee Bag

Godge wrote: »

Why is the meat grinder story more unlikely than the body being buried? It doesn't sound like something made up which makes it more likely than the alternative.

Are you in the know more than the dogs in the street about what happened?

The meat grinder story was an urban myth. Numerous IRA sources have stated this.

One of the men involved in the murder told Dagrragh McIntyre in an interview that the body was buried, then dug up and re-buried.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6769697.stm

timthumbni

Lingua Franca wrote: »

It was quite openly discussed in republican circles. Joked about, even. I personally discussed it with my father and a certain young man who went on to become a respectable senior Sinn Fein figure and businessman.

I can imagine that quite easily actually.

tdv123

It's not nice but that's the nature of war, ugly stuff.

Busted Flat.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I didn't know this

How in gods name has Adams not been questioned repeatedly over this (or has he?)

I'm no legal expert so could someone tell me if the charge of "directing terrorism" be brought retrospectively for events before the legislation was enacted?

Could that also include the executions carried out by Captain Niariac or the murderous scum he associated with in the murder triangle. Little example the Miami showband massacre. But then again these sort of incidents do not matter, like the Dublin and Monaghan massacre.

Colonel Sanders

Busted Flat. wrote: »

But then again these sort of incidents do not matter, like the Dublin and Monaghan massacre.

Where did I say that?

This thread is specifically about victims of republican violence, by all means start another thread on unsolved murders carried out by other groupings

Busted Flat.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Where did I say that?

This thread is specifically about victims of republican violence, by all means start another thread on unsolved murders carried out by other groupings

Oh so there is a difference in who the murderers are and their status in the human race. They lived like that for decades, someday the evil empire will be brought to task.

junder

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Oh so there is a difference in who the murderers are and their status in the human race. They lived like that for decades, someday the evil empire will be brought to task.

In the case of the so called disappeared, yes there is a difference, a big difference. It wasn't enough just to murder these people in cold blood, an act heinous enough, but to then bury the body's in unmarked graves so that loved ones could'nt give them a proper burial or have somewhere to go to pay thier respects is a whole new level of cruel espically when they used the 'rumour mill' to give those family's hope that thier family member was alive ' sure he was seen in Dundalk having a drink ' or I seen him getting on a train to Belfast etc etc

Busted Flat.

junder wrote: »

In the case of the so called disappeared, yes there is a difference, a big difference. It wasn't enough just to murder these people in cold blood, an act heinous enough, but to then bury the body's in unmarked graves so that loved ones could'nt give them a proper burial or have somewhere to go to pay thier respects is a whole new level of cruel espically when they used the 'rumour mill' to give those family's hope that thier family member was alive ' sure he was seen in Dundalk having a drink ' or I seen him getting on a train to Belfast etc etc

The Glenanne gang or Glenanne group was a secret informal alliance of Northern Irish loyalist extremists who carried out shooting and bombing attacks against the Irish Catholic and Irish nationalist community in the 1970s, during the Troubles.[1] Most of its attacks took place in the area of County Armagh and mid-Ulster referred to as the "murder triangle" by journalist Joe Tiernan.[2] It also launched some attacks elsewhere in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland.[3] The gang included British soldiers from the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), police officers from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), and members of the Mid-Ulster Brigade of the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF).[4][5] Former members have alleged it was commanded by British Military Intelligence and RUC Special Branch.[5][6]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGlenanne_gang&ei=lC58UvDDCYPF7Ab50ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNFG-9YDqnWqI0M6_asjy8Trde8Nsw

Busted Flat.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuzhound.com%2Farticles%2Fmal3-8.htm&ei=ijF8Up-nHsKS7AbNmYBI&usg=AFQjCNHvEnj-EEaUCN9lUhc1_zUTkUY6Aw

The RUC Special Branch has been accused of having covered up, for at least the last eleven years, evidence showing that members of the North's security forces were part of a Loyalist gang which crossed the Border and killed a Dundalk, Co Louth man, the Sunday Tribune has learned.
Seamus Ludlow, a 47 year old forestry worker, was found shot dead in an isolated laneway two miles north of Dundalk in May, 1976 and his killing became one of the unsolved mysteries of the Troubles.

However the story of how the authorities concealed the politically sensitive circumstances of his death has now come to light thanks to the man who gave RUC Special Branch officers a full account of the killing over a decade ago.

Paul Hosking (41), from Newtownards, Co Down started the day of Seamus Ludlow's death drinking with UDR soldiers who were also members of the Loyalist Red Hand Commandos and ended it witnessing the casual and opportunistic murder of the Dundalk man. He was later threatened with death by the Red Hand Commandos if he spoke to the authorities.

Courageous stuff by the so called law. Do you feel safe walking the roads when these law officers are travelling the same route.

junder

Republican tactic 101: when faced with an example of an indefensible action perpetrated by republicans, derail the thread

laoch na mona

i don't get what the fixation with the disappeared is yet British state collusion in sectarian violence seems to be ignored.

Crooked Jack

laoch na mona wrote: »

i don't get what the fixation with the disappeared is yet British state collusion in sectarian violence seems to be ignored.

While collusion is blatantly being ignored by both the British and Irish governments (can you imagine the reaction if the same sort of evidence emerged against the cops in London or Dublin?) the issue of the disappeared must be addressed.
It's a dark and shameful part of our past and the pain it caused still continues for a number of families today.
The focus should be on recovering the remaining bodies. That's why this programme was such a farce. It largely ignored those still missing in order to use the solved case of Jean McConville to take a shot at Adams.
If there is evidence against Adams it should be presented to the police and they should take the lead. Throwing it around, unsubstantiated, on a television programme is nothing more than a smear campaign.
The biggest failure of this programme however is that it was an opportunity to tell the story of those still missing and appeal for information. RTE/BBC forwent this in favour of attempting to rattle their favourite cage.
They should be ashamed of themselves.

alastair

Crooked Jack wrote: »

If there is evidence against Adams it should be presented to the police and they should take the lead. Throwing it around, unsubstantiated, on a television programme is nothing more than a smear campaign.
The biggest failure of this programme however is that it was an opportunity to tell the story of those still missing and appeal for information. RTE/BBC forwent this in favour of attempting to rattle their favourite cage.
They should be ashamed of themselves.

There's not enough evidence, and probably never will be, to convict Adams. That's not to say that articulating the weight of evidence against him, in relation to the subject of the disappeared hasn't got merit from a public broadcaster. He's a public figure with a platform, and people should be allowed judge for themselves whether he's truthful in regard to this.

I'm not sure what more the programme could have done to appeal for more information. Anyone with information about the location of bodies, and sympathetic to Adams isn't going to decide to keep schtum because the programme exposed the fragility of Adam's narrative. After all - Adams line is that anyone with information, should provide it to the relatives (even if it's nothing to do with the IRA, like in Crossmaglen).

Crooked Jack

alastair wrote: »

There's not enough evidence, and probably never will be, to convict Adams. That's not to say that articulating the weight of evidence against him, in relation to the subject of the disappeared hasn't got merit from a public broadcaster. He's a public figure with a platform, and people should be allowed judge for themselves whether he's truthful in regard to this.

So in the absence of any actual evidence you're advocating trial by media? Christ on a bike.

alastair wrote: »

I'm not sure what more the programme could have done to appeal for more information. Anyone with information about the location of bodies, and sympathetic to Adams isn't going to decide to keep schtum because the programme exposed the fragility of Adam's narrative. After all - Adams line is that anyone with information, should provide it to the relatives (even if it's nothing to do with the IRA, like in Crossmaglen).

They should have concentrated more on those still missing. Had interviews with the families of those still missing. Showed the area's where it's believed they are, showed pictures of the areas from the time of the disappearances.
Made more of the ICLVR amnesty for information.
Anything to jog memories/allay worries about conviction/appeal to the conscience of anyone with information.
The tone and actual content of the programme would only get the backs up of anyone who has info.

alastair

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So in the absence of any actual evidence you're advocating trial by media? Christ on a bike.

What 'trial' would that be again? There is, and will be no trial. What there is, is an attempt to hold a public representative to account.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

They should have concentrated more on those still missing. Had interviews with the families of those still missing. Showed the area's where it's believed they are, showed pictures of the areas from the time of the disappearances.
Made more of the ICLVR amnesty for information.
Anything to jog memories/allay worries about conviction/appeal to the conscience of anyone with information.
The tone and actual content of the programme would only get the backs up of anyone who has info.

I don't agree. The amnesty for those who provide information was made crystal clear.

grainnewhale

junder wrote: »

Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm

While the media are getting excited about trying to drag Gerry down. How come nobody questions, the actions of the british army or government in recruiting a widow of 10 as an informant.

Busted Flat.

grainnewhale wrote: »

While the media are getting excited about trying to drag Gerry down. How come nobody questions, the actions of the british army or government in recruiting a widow of 10 as an informant.

Now that puts a different slant on the scene.

Sierra Oscar

grainnewhale wrote: »

While the media are getting excited about trying to drag Gerry down. How come nobody questions, the actions of the british army or government in recruiting a widow of 10 as an informant.

She should not have been recruited. I certainly wouldn't support the intelligence tactics of the British Army.

That does not mean she should have been murdered and her body dumped somewhere out of reach of her family. Lets not forget that Jean's body was only found by accident. Those that knew information about the whereabouts of her remains stayed silent.

Lingua Franca

But she's been found.

Sierra Oscar

Lingua Franca wrote: »

But she's been found.

Not as a result of SF / IRA coming forward with information. Her remains were found by accident. There were some who were content with remaining silent, despite the suffering of her family and friends.

Lingua Franca

Ah, you edited your post. When I responded it still said that no one had come forward with information despite people knowing where her body was.

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

Why is the meat grinder story more unlikely than the body being buried? It doesn't sound like something made up which makes it more likely than the alternative.

Are you in the know more than the dogs in the street about what happened?

Nairac was killed close to where I live and that story has been doing the rounds since the event took place. Most of those responsible are dead, can;t say if all are. I knew all of them to see.

Busted Flat.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

She should not have been recruited. I certainly wouldn't support the intelligence tactics of the British Army.

That does not mean she should have been murdered and her body dumped somewhere out of reach of her family. Lets not forget that Jean's body was only found by accident. Those that knew information about the whereabouts of her remains stayed silent.

You must look at the broader picture, touts and informers are always dealt very harsh in any country fighting for their freedom, there is a prime example in South Africa, like the necklace. How brutal was that, men and women got the same justice for their betrayal. That is life and wartime, men were shot by their own officers in 1914 for not being able to go over the trenches with the fear that they had. Get a grip war is disgusting and horrible and bring men and women to the extreme's, of civilization.

hmmm

I hate the term "the disappeared", it sounds so clean. These are people who were kidnapped, tortured, murdered and their bodies tossed into a hole in some godforsaken bog. Meanwhile their families were never told what had happened by the sociopathic animals who wanted to instill the maximum levels of fear and intimidation. There must be a better description than "disappeared".

God help us when SF get into power. I see so many naive young people supporting them, but the guys who carried out the murders haven't gone away and are lurking in the shadows.

Busted Flat.

hmmm wrote: »

I hate the term "the disappeared", it sounds so clean. These are people who were kidnapped, tortured, murdered and their bodies tossed into a hole in some godforsaken bog. Meanwhile their families were never told what had happened by the sociopathic animals who wanted to instill the maximum levels of fear and intimidation. There must be a better description than "disappeared".

God help us when SF get into power. I see so many naive young people supporting them, but the guys who carried out the murders haven't gone away and are lurking in the shadows.

:D:D Do you know the amount of people that have gone that road.

hmmm

Busted Flat. wrote: »

:D:D Do you know the amount of people that have gone that road.

What a great laugh all this is to you.

Brian?

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not as a result of SF / IRA coming forward with information. Her remains were found by accident. There were some who were content with remaining silent, despite the suffering of her family and friends.

The IRA did provide information about where she was buried. A search was done but nothing was found.

The accidental discovery came after.

junder

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

She should not have been recruited. I certainly wouldn't support the intelligence tactics of the British Army.

That does not mean she should have been murdered and her body dumped somewhere out of reach of her family. Lets not forget that Jean's body was only found by accident. Those that knew information about the whereabouts of her remains stayed silent.

That's assuming she was an informer