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The disappeared

  • 06-11-2013 12:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭


    Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    junder wrote: »
    Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm

    McKee was the old guy, who indicated that he would have done the execution of Jean McConville, if ordered at the time, despite disagreeing with it? Disgusting, and he living into old age, the irony. All those people executed on orders from revolting people like him and their evil power, no trial, no court, no justice. Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,580 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I was reading about McKee who said yes he would have executed Jean. I didn't read that he disagreed with her being executed. I read that he disagreed with hiding the body. Horrible people that can do this to other people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    McKee was the old guy, who indicated that he would have done the execution of Jean McConville, if ordered at the time, despite disagreeing with it? Disgusting, and he living into old age, the irony. All those people executed on orders from revolting people like him and their evil power, no trial, no court, no justice. Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.

    He agreed with the punishment for informing being execution.
    He disagreed with the body of victims being hidden and deprived of a christian burial. He also mentioned that such things went on in the 1920s.

    The IRA should have forced her out of the country, but there brutal logic must have been if they made an exception for her, then there would be less of a deterrent for others to inform.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Summary execution is shameful and abhorrent but never returning bodies to grieving families is a whole extra helping of cruelty.
    junder wrote: »
    People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.

    I can't watch the programme, was it solely about the IRA disappeared? I read today that Jean McConville's son has publically called for the UVF to come forward in regards to Lisa Dorrian as well, but the article wasn't clear about whether that was on the show or not. Her body should be less difficult to find since it was fairly recent.

    How many are still missing?
    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Do not even have the decency to say where these people are buried.


    Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld? I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

    I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Summary execution is shameful and abhorrent but never returning bodies to grieving families is a whole extra helping of cruelty.



    I can't watch the programme, was it solely about the IRA disappeared? I read today that Jean McConville's son has publically called for the UVF to come forward in regards to Lisa Dorrian as well, but the article wasn't clear about whether that was on the show or not. Her body should be less difficult to find since it was fairly recent.

    How many are still missing?




    Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld? I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

    I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.

    Jean mcconvilles body was never found under the 'disappeared' scheme which allowed for no criminal investigations to be held in relation to the body's locations being revealed. Her body was found by a member of the public and as such there is a criminal investigation which means in light of the accusations of Gerry Adams rank within the ira by 3 senior ira men and his alleged involvement in jean mcconvilles murder then he should be brought into answer questions


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Malibu Stacy


    Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.

    I am probably off the mark, but perhaps its to undermine Adams for some reason?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Why is this issue coming up again, and now? Hughes made these accusations in Ed Moloney's book that came out a few years ago. I'm not saying that this should be brushed under the carpet, but none of this is new.

    I would imagine that the issue will continue to come up again and again until the entire truth about the circumstances surrounding Jean McConville's death are revealed.

    The murder is still being investigated by the PSNI, so it is no surprise that it still is being covered by the media.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I am probably off the mark, but perhaps its to undermine Adams for some reason?

    I really don't think so. The whole issue of his child abusing brother would do that far more effectively than the 'was or wasn't he a terrorist' discussion. Adams and his cohorts are well used to dealing with the topic as a whole and SF voters look upon membership of the IRA as a badge of honour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    He agreed with the punishment for informing being execution.
    He disagreed with the body of victims being hidden and deprived of a christian burial. He also mentioned that such things went on in the 1920s.

    The IRA should have forced her out of the country, but there brutal logic must have been if they made an exception for her, then there would be less of a deterrent for others to inform.

    I watched programme and billy was quite adamant that 'disappearing' people did not go on before and he was quite angrey that it had happened.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack



    Are the locations of some of the graves still being deliberately withheld?

    There are a number of bodies still missing. Seven I think. I doubt if any of them, bar the case of Lisa Dorrian, given that it's much more recent, are being deliberately withheld. It's more likely that over the course of 30 years people die and memories fade. They would have no reason not to give information if they had it. A number of digs have taken place and nothing found, which would indicate some people are trying to hand over info but either dont have it or cant recall it exactly.
    I thought that the IRA did what they could to get the bodies back to the families about 10 years ago, from pinpointing locations as in the case of Jean McConville, to leaving the bodies above ground as in the case of Eamonn Molloy.

    The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains (ICLVR) was actually set up in response to a statement by the IRA about the disappeared. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/disappeared.htm Prior to this the case of the disappeared was not well known. A number of journalists were on radio earlier this week recalling the day of the IRA statement and none of them knew what they were referring to.
    I'm not making excuses for them, but it's possible that the people who knew where the rest of the bodies lie (or what happened to them, "the dogs in the street know" that Robert Nairiac was put through a mincer and fed to pigs) are now dead.

    You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    It's more likely that over the course of 30 years people die and memories fade.

    I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.


  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    COYW wrote: »
    I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.

    Landscape where one would bury bodies would change immensely over 40 years, and they could have been buried at night in areas not known well to those burying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    COYW wrote: »
    I may be naive in thinking this but I just cannot fathom how the locations of the graves can be forgotten. I find it very hard to believe that any human being could forget the location at which they "buried" the body of another human being.

    You come down from Belfast 30 years ago in the middle of the night and dig a hole somewhere in a bog in Monaghan.
    It's pretty easy to see how memories could fade and it would also explain digs that yielded nothing after information was given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    junder wrote: »
    I watched programme and billy was quite adamant that 'disappearing' people did not go on before and he was quite angrey that it had happened.

    You are right it was not mcKee who said it happened before, it was the narrator. Billy mc Kee was against it, so it never occurred under his watch, but he was not an IRA commander in the 20s and 30s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    Landscape where one would bury bodies would change immensely over 40 years, and they could have been buried at night in areas not known well to those burying.

    One of the problems with finding the body of Keith Bennett is that, according to the experts, the ground soil on Saddleworth Moor moves and slips over the bedrock over the years 'like a blanket on a bed" so although they have a reasonable idea as to where he was originally buried, his remains may have moved in any direction over the years. I'm sure there's places in Ireland like that too.
    You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.

    Mm. But I first heard it in the 80s, a decade or so before it made headlines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Mm. But I first heard it in the 80s, a decade or so before it made headlines.
    Really? How? I was under the impression that practically nobody was aware of this before the IRA statement in 1999.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Awful, awful stuff really. Whatever about debating the morality of shooting informers; disappearing the body of someone is never justified, regardless of whatever pressures the IRA may have been under at the time. To be blunt, if you're going to take the step of killing someone at least have the gumption to stand over it and explain why and allow the body to have a decent burial. Killing someone and then copping out of it completely is political cowardice to say the least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Really? How? I was under the impression that practically nobody was aware of this before the IRA statement in 1999.

    It was quite openly discussed in republican circles. Joked about, even. I personally discussed it with my father and a certain young man who went on to become a respectable senior Sinn Fein figure and businessman.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    ...which is not to say that it couldn't be bull****. But the story was circulating a long, long time before the story was published in the book Killing Rage by Eamonn Collins in 1997, which in itself was before 1999.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    The murder is still being investigated by the PSNI, so it is no surprise that it still is being covered by the media.

    I didn't know this

    How in gods name has Adams not been questioned repeatedly over this (or has he?)

    I'm no legal expert so could someone tell me if the charge of "directing terrorism" be brought retrospectively for events before the legislation was enacted?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge





    You'll often find that, contrary to what the dogs in the street think, they usually know fuck all. Nairac was more than likely buried, just like the rest. This meat grinder stuff makes for a good headline but it's unlikely.


    Why is the meat grinder story more unlikely than the body being buried? It doesn't sound like something made up which makes it more likely than the alternative.

    Are you in the know more than the dogs in the street about what happened?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Godge wrote: »
    Why is the meat grinder story more unlikely than the body being buried? It doesn't sound like something made up which makes it more likely than the alternative.

    Are you in the know more than the dogs in the street about what happened?

    The meat grinder story was an urban myth. Numerous IRA sources have stated this.

    One of the men involved in the murder told Dagrragh McIntyre in an interview that the body was buried, then dug up and re-buried.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6769697.stm


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    It was quite openly discussed in republican circles. Joked about, even. I personally discussed it with my father and a certain young man who went on to become a respectable senior Sinn Fein figure and businessman.

    I can imagine that quite easily actually.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    It's not nice but that's the nature of war, ugly stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    I didn't know this

    How in gods name has Adams not been questioned repeatedly over this (or has he?)

    I'm no legal expert so could someone tell me if the charge of "directing terrorism" be brought retrospectively for events before the legislation was enacted?

    Could that also include the executions carried out by Captain Niariac or the murderous scum he associated with in the murder triangle. Little example the Miami showband massacre. But then again these sort of incidents do not matter, like the Dublin and Monaghan massacre.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    But then again these sort of incidents do not matter, like the Dublin and Monaghan massacre.

    Where did I say that?

    This thread is specifically about victims of republican violence, by all means start another thread on unsolved murders carried out by other groupings


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Where did I say that?

    This thread is specifically about victims of republican violence, by all means start another thread on unsolved murders carried out by other groupings

    Oh so there is a difference in who the murderers are and their status in the human race. They lived like that for decades, someday the evil empire will be brought to task.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Oh so there is a difference in who the murderers are and their status in the human race. They lived like that for decades, someday the evil empire will be brought to task.

    In the case of the so called disappeared, yes there is a difference, a big difference. It wasn't enough just to murder these people in cold blood, an act heinous enough, but to then bury the body's in unmarked graves so that loved ones could'nt give them a proper burial or have somewhere to go to pay thier respects is a whole new level of cruel espically when they used the 'rumour mill' to give those family's hope that thier family member was alive ' sure he was seen in Dundalk having a drink ' or I seen him getting on a train to Belfast etc etc


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    junder wrote: »
    In the case of the so called disappeared, yes there is a difference, a big difference. It wasn't enough just to murder these people in cold blood, an act heinous enough, but to then bury the body's in unmarked graves so that loved ones could'nt give them a proper burial or have somewhere to go to pay thier respects is a whole new level of cruel espically when they used the 'rumour mill' to give those family's hope that thier family member was alive ' sure he was seen in Dundalk having a drink ' or I seen him getting on a train to Belfast etc etc

    The Glenanne gang or Glenanne group was a secret informal alliance of Northern Irish loyalist extremists who carried out shooting and bombing attacks against the Irish Catholic and Irish nationalist community in the 1970s, during the Troubles.[1] Most of its attacks took place in the area of County Armagh and mid-Ulster referred to as the "murder triangle" by journalist Joe Tiernan.[2] It also launched some attacks elsewhere in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland.[3] The gang included British soldiers from the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), police officers from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), and members of the Mid-Ulster Brigade of the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF).[4][5] Former members have alleged it was commanded by British Military Intelligence and RUC Special Branch.[5][6]

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGlenanne_gang&ei=lC58UvDDCYPF7Ab50ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNFG-9YDqnWqI0M6_asjy8Trde8Nsw


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