ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

homerjay2005 · 21-11-2013 09:58PM

Jett Nervous Pen wrote: »

And who is going to stand up for workers then. Who would be standing up for the ESB workers, these people would lose the pensions if it weren't for the union.

why do they need to have people standing up for them? a pension is a gamble...its always been made clear that the value of your investment may rise or drop. 100,000's of people in this country have lost money in their pensions, why should these people in the ESB get special treatment?

next thing they will be doing is looking for strike action when Paddy Power doesnt refund their losing bets or putting a picket line accross the road at the leopardstown racecourse cos their horse came last.

Jett Nervous Pen wrote: »

Would you not like to have a union fighting your corner?

because i wouldnt like to be represented by a bunch of devious, self righteous cowboys who only care about themselves and how much money they can squeeze out of employees who look for as much money as possible, doing as little as possible as they can.

and Unions cost jobs, the more Unionised workers involved in private companies, the more likely these companies are to leave the country and feck off to another place where workers actually respect their employers.

and any public service that is run by a union, is likely to be over priced primarily due to the obscene wages that each employee is paid in that service. our electricity, gas, health service, public transport and every other public "service" is among est the most expensive and highest paid in the world - we can thank the f8cking Unions for that.

hansfrei · 21-11-2013 09:59PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

It is amazing that this dick can get a job. On one hand he claims to represent the workers, while taking a sweetner from the company to keep the workers on side. I know this is old news, but maybe he is doing this now to show the workers he's on their side.

The government
Their unions

The ESB
Their unions

All seem to have the same target. The taxpayers.

grainnewhale · 21-11-2013 10:01PM

Averi Mango Villain wrote: »

Then he is on the VSS voluntary severance payment. He is not and cannot under statute be on pension from ESB under 60 and as he left this year he will not be accessing the superannuation fund until he is 65. He may say he is retired but he is NOT on pension from ESB at 54. And drawing down his severance pay on an annual basis until he reaches pension age. FACT. Ask him! He is a deferred member of the Pension fund.
What this puts in context is that you haven't the foggiest what you are purporting to be truth. Many who took VS from ESB will say they are retired, and rightly so, but they are not on pension. A huge difference in the light of this thread.

The fact remains that he gets more for sitting at home doing nothing. Than most get for going to work. Admittedly the only difference is he sits at home doing nothing instead of going to work to do nothing. The reason he can do this is because joe soap is picking up the tab. They had previously moved from one yard to another in the same town and got 1000 pound bonus for the inconvenience, this was back when a thousand pound was worth something.
Simple question to you think the paying public are getting value for money from the ESB and their workers?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-11-2013 10:07PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

All this does is explain where Brendan Ogle gets his 100plus salary from.

Wrong union. He is Sec of the Group of Unions and General Sec of Unite branch but he has nothing to do with ESBOA. I love how people jump in with both feet at times.

Cienciano · 21-11-2013 10:12PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

My brother has a pension from the ESB at 50 he gets more for sitting at home than I get for working, the only problem I see with their pension is, its like their wages grossly over inflated.

grainnewhale wrote: »

The fact remains that he gets more for sitting at home doing nothing. Than most get for going to work. Admittedly the only difference is he sits at home doing nothing instead of going to work to do nothing. The reason he can do this is because joe soap is picking up the tab. They had previously moved from one yard to another in the same town and got 1000 pound bonus for the inconvenience, this was back when a thousand pound was worth something.
Simple question to you think the paying public are getting value for money from the ESB and their workers?

Well, that was some severance package he got. If he's getting as much now as he was when he's working and that has to do him for the next 11 years till his pension kicks in, assuming he was on "the average" 65k a year, that means his VSS package was €715,000

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-11-2013 10:12PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

The fact remains that he gets more for sitting at home doing nothing. Than most get for going to work. Admittedly the only difference is he sits at home doing nothing instead of going to work to do nothing. The reason he can do this is because joe soap is picking up the tab. They had previously moved from one yard to another in the same town and got 1000 pound bonus for the inconvenience, this was back when a thousand pound was worth something.
Simple question to you think the paying public are getting value for money from the ESB and their workers?

So you finally see he is not on an ESB pension yet. This discussion is on the pension deficit and you spouted fact that was completely erroneous. So I,m not wasting any breath going down any more cul de sacs with you.
You need to talk to the brother and get your facts straight before trying to persuade people with untruths.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-11-2013 10:17PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Well, that was some severance package he got. If he's getting as much now as he was when he's working and that has to do him for the next 11 years till his pension kicks in, assuming he was on "the average" 65k a year, that means his VSS package was €715,000

No it would be half that Max, as 40 years in ESB gives a 50% pension. At 54 he hardly has 40 years. The other brother said he was on pension so he thought he was on the equivalent of pension. Max 36 80ths of salary assuming he joined the pension fund at age 18. And not many actually are on this famous 65000 average. I know of many ESB pensioners on pensions of less than 20000 pa.

Boombastic · 21-11-2013 10:18PM

The ESB employs more than 7,000 workers. Average pay at the semi-sate company is €75,500 -- which rises to €94,300 when pension contributions are included

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-rejects-generous-exit-deal-for-700-esb-workers-26787397.html.

that article is laughable for so many reasons...warning...it smacks of entitlement

Ace2007 · 21-11-2013 10:21PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why do they need to have people standing up for them? a pension is a gamble...its always been made clear that the value of your investment may rise or drop. 100,000's of people in this country have lost money in their pensions, why should these people in the ESB get special treatment?
.

While I'm against the idea of the strike and the reasons behind it, the above is actually not entirely true, with DB schemes the company states when you retire you'll receive 1/60th of your final salary up to a max of 40 years (some schemes use different rules, but this is the main one), so assuming the scheme is fully funded or over funded, then the pensioner will get x amount, which is set - if he had retired in the boom years, this is all he would be getting regardless of how well the scheme was doing, i.e. he wouldn't have got 2x.

DC schemes are more of a gamble as your replying on the investment return for your pension - and is why there are a lot of lifestyle plans depending on your age, - riskier for young people, and moving towards safer low returning bold yield for people closer to retirement.

end of the road · 21-11-2013 10:31PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why do they need to have people standing up for them?

to make sure the employers don't exploit them

homerjay2005 wrote: »

100,000's of people in this country have lost money in their pensions, why should these people in the ESB get special treatment?

why shouldn't they get what their entitled to just because other peoples pensions have gone down the drain?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

next thing they will be doing is looking for strike action when Paddy Power doesnt refund their losing bets or putting a picket line accross the road at the leopardstown racecourse cos their horse came last.

LOL

homerjay2005 wrote: »

because i wouldnt like to be represented by a bunch of devious, self righteous cowboys who only care about themselves and how much money they can squeeze out of employees who look for as much money as possible, doing as little as possible as they can.

you don't want to be a member of a union, fine, but others do, as for the rest of that sentence, a load of ****

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Unions cost jobs

no they don't, some companies don't want to treat their workers properly so go to countries which have less or no workers rights and crap or barely no wages.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the more Unionised workers involved in private companies, the more likely these companies are to leave the country and feck off to another place where workers actually respect their employers so much that they will allow themselves to be exploited and work in some cases in dangerous conditions, and will more or less begg and do whatever the employer wants whether its part of the job description or not to get their wages.

i agree, thats why unions are vital

homerjay2005 wrote: »

any public service that is run by a union, is likely to be over priced primarily due to the obscene wages that each employee is paid in that service.

oh? check out the privatised public services in britain, way way overpriced and the money goes to private shareholders or foreign state companies.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

our electricity, gas, health service, public transport and every other public "service" is among est the most expensive and highest paid in the world

dream on

homerjay2005 wrote: »

we can thank the f8cking Unions for that.

no, its not the unions fault

Rabelais · 21-11-2013 10:44PM

Boombastic wrote: »

The ESB employs more than 7,000 workers. Average pay at the semi-sate company is €75,500 -- which rises to €94,300 when pension contributions are included

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-rejects-generous-exit-deal-for-700-esb-workers-26787397.html.

that article is laughable for so many reasons...warning...it smacks of entitlement

As I said earlier, this includes many electrical engineers, design engineers, solicitors, accountants, telecoms engineers, IT staff with niche skills, staff who work overseas for ESB International, oncall payments and all the rest. Utilities don't exist without specialist skills that demand high market rates. The large number of them who leave the ESB to take up work in other companies is a sign of that.

They advertised for 5 jobs in their IT department last week. Did anyone here apply?

Ace2007 · 21-11-2013 10:59PM

Boombastic wrote: »

The ESB employs more than 7,000 workers. Average pay at the semi-sate company is €75,500 -- which rises to €94,300 when pension contributions are included

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-rejects-generous-exit-deal-for-700-esb-workers-26787397.html.

that article is laughable for so many reasons...warning...it smacks of entitlement

strange that article say it's a state owned company and not private as some people on here are saying.... (Not that it makes a blind bit of difference).

grainnewhale · 21-11-2013 11:09PM

Averi Mango Villain wrote: »

So you finally see he is not on an ESB pension yet. This discussion is on the pension deficit and you spouted fact that was completely erroneous. So I,m not wasting any breath going down any more cul de sacs with you.
You need to talk to the brother and get your facts straight before trying to persuade people with untruths.

You can call it what you like. he was working there, he no longer works there and yet they pay him to stay at home and will until he dies. Now I am guessing that's what most people would call a pension. But if its not its even more proof if any was nessecary that these people are overpaid and a drain on society and a burden to the ordinary workers in this country.

Cienciano · 21-11-2013 11:14PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

You can call it what you like. he was working there, he no longer works there and yet they pay him to stay at home and will until he dies. Now I am guessing that's what most people would call a pension. But if its not its even more proof if any was nessecary that these people are overpaid and a drain on society and a burden to the ordinary workers in this country.

Not sure you understand the concept of voluntary severance package/pension.

tayto lover · 21-11-2013 11:18PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

You can call it what you like. he was working there, he no longer works there and yet they pay him to stay at home and will until he dies. Now I am guessing that's what most people would call a pension. But if its not its even more proof if any was nessecary that these people are overpaid and a drain on society and a burden to the ordinary workers in this country.

Sibling rivalry methinks.
When it sours boy does it sour.

Curly Judge · 22-11-2013 01:03AM

Rabelais wrote: »

Some amount of guff being spouted around here about this subject.

1). The ESB isn't the "public service". It's a commercial semi-state. It raises its own money on the bond markets. It returns a dividend to the majority shareholder - the State, based on profits earned through its many activities.

2). Yes, the wages seem high. There are also a large number of electrical engineers, solicitors, telecoms engineers, people on call, IT specialists and a large overseas staff who get paid rates consummate with their skills and professions. Quelle surprise, but people do leave the ESB to join other companies.

3). You are free to use another supplier of electricity, many of whom use independent generators to provide power. There is a large wholesale market where electricity is traded amongst the providers.

4). British power companies will be able to supply electricity to the market in the next few years (2016). The ESB, and it's customer supply arm - Electric Ireland - will be a very small fish in a very large market.

I don't even work for the ESB, but work in the electrical industry. There are many things they do badly, but there are plenty they are seen as genuine world-leaders in. Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - would you feel genuinely aggrieved that you had paid into a pension for upto 40 years, only to told there is nothing for you? A pension you had to join upon starting? Defined Benefit pensions are a joke, but that doesn't mean we can't at least have a smidgen of sympathy for what they must be feeling.

A wee bit of perspective, instead of mass moral outrage and self-righteousness on the interwebs might be useful.

A wee bit of perspective might not do you any harm either!
These slave employed poor devils have on average contributed 8.5% of their wages into a pension fund for 30 years.
When they retire they expect to be paid a pension of 40% of their final salary......for possibly another 30 years. [Maybe even longer if he is married to a much younger wife]
You hardly need to be a chartered accountant to work out that there might be something here which doesn't add up?
When a scheme like this hits the rocks, as it inevitably must, the participants in the fairy story look at each other, like ducks looking at thunder, start milling around, and expect real world workers to subsidise them because they were mislead.
I have about as much sympathy for them as they had for me when my private pension ended up being worth about as much as a square wheeled bicycle.
I made a bad choice...they made a bad choice. Difference is, I couldn't go to them looking for relief so they shouldn't be able to come whinging to me.
My contribution to Irish society has been as vital and difficult as anything any ESB worker has provided.
Trouble is I have never been in a position to plunge the country into darkness.
This isn't about rights or fairness it's about sheer naked power, intimidation and the ruthless will to make selfish use of it.

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 01:33AM

TireeTerror wrote: »

I have no time for a company who has made it difficult for thousands of householders with excessive charges and who has done everything they can to resist installing free prepayment meters for those struggling to meet bills.

People can have a payment plan set up if they can't pay their bill on time.
It is up to someone having difficulty paying their bills to contact the company for an arrangement ASAP rather than leaving it spiral - it's a two-way street. And it's a myth that these companies enjoy people struggling to pay bills - it's hardly fun for the company either, but the customer has a responsibility to engage with them also and let them know about their situation, which most normal people will be understanding of.
A pre-pay meter isn't needed to make pre payments.
Electricity/gas is not as high in Ireland compared to the rest of the world, as the populist kneejerk peeps like to say it is.
It is usage that leads to bills, not just "charges".

TireeTerror wrote: »

It's good news for all the Airtricity sales reps though, those guys are making a killing with all the hostility aimed at ESB though.....suddnely Electric Ireland reps are no longer lying at the door saying "Im here from ESB" its very much changed to "Hi, Im from Electric Ireland...no, no, no we are not striking, we are Electric Ireland, nothing to do with ESB.........!"

Idiocy to blame door-to-door reps. And Airtricity reps are not employed by Airtricity, but by sales agencies. Who's to say this isn't the case with Electric Ireland salespeople?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and with this attitude, its no wonder the country is f*cked. you have to earn the right to a job, not just turn up and do f8ck all as seems to be the attitude of many irish people.

we go on about workers conditions and discrimination in this country as if we were back in the 1800s and the entire country was working on spud farms for 2 pence a month.

if you are not happy in a job, f*ck off and somebody else who will be happy in it and probably do a great job it, will take it.

Yawn. There is a minimum of standards to which an employee is entitled. When people say the above, and "leave the job if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to work there" (pointless argument - could be said about absolutely anything) I strongly suspect they are the kind who would exploit workers as much as possible if they were running a business.
Nobody whatsoever advocated people turning up and doing f*ck all btw.

homerjay2005 · 22-11-2013 08:27AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yawn. There is a minimum of standards to which an employee is entitled. When people say the above, and "leave the job if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to work there" (pointless argument - could be said about absolutely anything) I strongly suspect they are the kind who would exploit workers as much as possible if they were running a business.
Nobody whatsoever advocated people turning up and doing f*ck all btw.

the only yawn is the constant tripe that Union heads constandly spout about how poor working conditions appear to be in this country. ive worked for many different people and companies, some who completely refuse to deal with unions, yet the working conditions have all bee excellent.

and your comments about a pointless argument is complete rubbish, if somebody is not happy with their job and no laws are being broken, why should they stay there?

as has been pointed out many times, Unions are outdated now, they create a sense of injustice and self pity, that a portion of the population beliefe and buy into. its actually quite sad.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 22-11-2013 08:52AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

While I'm against the idea of the strike and the reasons behind it, the above is actually not entirely true, with DB schemes the company states when you retire you'll receive 1/60th of your final salary up to a max of 40 years (some schemes use different rules, but this is the main one), so assuming the scheme is fully funded or over funded, then the pensioner will get x amount, which is set - if he had retired in the boom years, this is all he would be getting regardless of how well the scheme was doing, i.e. he wouldn't have got 2x.

DC schemes are more of a gamble as your replying on the investment return for your pension - and is why there are a lot of lifestyle plans depending on your age, - riskier for young people, and moving towards safer low returning bold yield for people closer to retirement.

Just for accuracy. ESB is 1/80th not 1/60th. With maxpension 50% of career average earnings. Some banks and others were 1/60 but not ESB.

Ace2007 · 22-11-2013 12:58PM

Averi Mango Villain wrote: »

Just for accuracy. ESB is 1/80th not 1/60th. With maxpension 50% of career average earnings. Some banks and others were 1/60 but not ESB.

It's irreverent to the point I was making though

Gumbo · 22-11-2013 02:24PM

grainnewhale wrote: »

You can call it what you like. he was working there, he no longer works there and yet they pay him to stay at home and will until he dies. Now I am guessing that's what most people would call a pension. But if its not its even more proof if any was nessecary that these people are overpaid and a drain on society and a burden to the ordinary workers in this country.

Why don't you tell your drain of a brother to hand back some of his pension?

Frankie5Angels · 22-11-2013 02:58PM

kceire wrote: »

Why don't you tell your drain of a brother to hand back some of his pension?

Describing one's own brother as a 'drain on society' when the 'pension' he receives is not paid by the state - why bother replying to people like that?

These people are being paid with their own money, Joe, THEIR OWN MONEY! God almighty, it's terrible, Joe.

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 03:01PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

strange that article say it's a state owned company and not private as some people on here are saying

Strange that the Irish (sp)Independent publishes an inaccuracy concerning the ESB? No, it really really isn't strange in the least.

end of the road · 22-11-2013 03:07PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the only yawn is the constant tripe that Union heads constandly spout about how poor working conditions appear to be in this country. ive worked for many different people and companies, some who completely refuse to deal with unions, yet the working conditions have all bee excellent.

and your comments about a pointless argument is complete rubbish, if somebody is not happy with their job and no laws are being broken, why should they stay there?

as has been pointed out many times, Unions are outdated now, they create a sense of injustice and self pity, that a portion of the population beliefe and buy into. its actually quite sad.

the only reason people delude themselves that unions are outdated is because they won't allow their members to be dumed down by the "they should be greatful for a job" brigade, unions are relevant, unions are necessary, unions are needed, and all of those the unions shal remain

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 22-11-2013 03:15PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's irreverent to the point I was making though

Granted but it was just to clarify that they have a Max 50% pension as opposed to the 66% suggested.

hansfrei · 22-11-2013 03:58PM

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Describing one's own brother as a 'drain on society' when the 'pension' he receives is not paid by the state - why bother replying to people like that?

These people are being paid with their own money, Joe, THEIR OWN MONEY! God almighty, it's terrible, Joe.

Finally the penny drops.

Your money
Your pension
Your pension managers
Your problem

Going on strike over this is stupid and incredibly selfish. Its your problem.

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 11:29PM

Yeh I wouldn't agree with power cuts, as it punishes people who are not responsible. I see why there's a dispute though.

Boombastic wrote: »

The ESB employs more than 7,000 workers. Average pay at the semi-sate company is €75,500 -- which rises to €94,300 when pension contributions are included

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-rejects-generous-exit-deal-for-700-esb-workers-26787397.html.

that article is laughable for so many reasons...warning...it smacks of entitlement

Lol, taking the Irish Independent as a reliable source. That rag is known for its anti ESB agenda. It's so blatant that it's like a piss-take. There are many people working there who would love if their salary was anywhere near €75,500. It may be the average figure when you do that bit of maths, but it doesn't paint the full picture at all. There are many very senior managers who are paid extremely high salaries, and there are a lot of technicians/engineers who are earning the same (not sure it's not deserved either) so the average distorts the actual reality, but is useful for pushing an agenda.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

your comments about a pointless argument is complete rubbish, if somebody is not happy with their job and no laws are being broken, why should they stay there?

I'm not talking about people who just don't like their job, I'm talking about people who are being treated badly - e.g. being made come in on their day off, being made work hours after finishing time regularly and not being paid for it. Just because this isn't the 19th century doesn't mean these don't happen. The employee shouldn't have to leave - especially if they like the work and are good at it, and especially when there aren't many jobs available now; the company should have to improve conditions.

Unions are outdated now.

They never will be IMO. Yes they had too much power one time, yes, there are ridiculously overpaid "socialist" union reps. But an organisation for workers to join in order to ensure they are treated according to a basic standard, should never be done away with.

Boombastic · 22-11-2013 11:45PM

the public sector workers are easily spotted in this thread..

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 11:48PM

Boombastic wrote: »

the public sector workers are easily spotted in this thread..

Y'see, this and "You must work for them" is really really poor arguing.

I have been working in the private sector for nearly 13 years, so that's... that I guess.

And ESB isn't public sector. Shur all the people arguing it is, know it isn't a government department... which is what constitutes public sector.

mfceiling · 22-11-2013 11:52PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

People can have a payment plan set up if they can't pay their bill on time.
It is up to someone having difficulty paying their bills to contact the company for an arrangement ASAP rather than leaving it spiral - it's a two-way street. And it's a myth that these companies enjoy people struggling to pay bills - it's hardly fun for the company either, but the customer has a responsibility to engage with them also and let them know about their situation, which most normal people will be understanding of.
A pre-pay meter isn't needed to make pre payments.
Electricity/gas is not as high in Ireland compared to the rest of the world, as the populist kneejerk peeps like to say it is.
It is usage that leads to bills, not just "charges".

Idiocy to blame door-to-door reps. And Airtricity reps are not employed by Airtricity, but by sales agencies. Who's to say this isn't the case with Electric Ireland salespeople?

Yawn. There is a minimum of standards to which an employee is entitled. When people say the above, and "leave the job if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to work there" (pointless argument - could be said about absolutely anything) I strongly suspect they are the kind who would exploit workers as much as possible if they were running a business.
Nobody whatsoever advocated people turning up and doing f*ck all btw.

http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/climate/37/Electricity-Prices-In-Europe-and-Ireland-for-domestic-and-industrial-consumers-Large-band.html

ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

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