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ESB vote to strike over gold plated pensions as winter arrives

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Comments

  • #422
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    They just took a 20% pay cut following the 2010 agreement. Any other bright ideas?

    whats that got to do with my suggestion?


  • #423
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    My brother has a pension from the ESB at 50 he gets more for sitting at home than I get for working, the only problem I see with their pension is, its like their wages grossly over inflated.

    ESB employees can only access the pension fund at age 60 (65 for those who took redundancy since 2012) so this brother of yours cannot be on pension at 50. Any more fairy stories?


  • #424
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Boombastic wrote: »
    whats that got to do with my suggestion?

    It's highlights how ridiculous your suggestion was. Why on earth should they have to take a pay cut in order to get the pension they are entitled to.


  • #425
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    May have been then are even before as far as I know they didn't go on strike at the time. don't know what specific union it was.

    Sounds like a legit story so


  • #426
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    You must be in the wrong union then. ESBOA for one has a published fund that is huge - the fact that they bought property pre Celtic tiger and disposed of it before the crash and haven't had a strike in almost 30 years has helped build up quite a fighting fund.

    What the hell is a union doing buying property?


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  • #427
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Boombastic wrote: »
    whats that got to do with my suggestion?

    You suggested a 15% cut while they already agreed a 20% cut to alleviate the pension deficit. Plus a pay freeze, additional contributions and reduced benefits, in addition to CARE valuation instead of finishing salary.


  • #428
    fuerte1976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 692 ✭✭✭fuerte1976


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What the hell is a union doing buying property?

    Union didn't, pension fund managers did..


  • #429
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What the hell is a union doing buying property?

    I presume to get a better return on their funds than they would if they just stuck them in the bank.


  • #430
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What the hell is a union doing buying property?

    Any union taking 1% of it's members' salaries and mandated to hold a fighting fund has a responsibility to invest it and I have to habpnd it to that particular union as they invested very well in the 70s and reaped the rewards in the late 90s. No harm in that. You can rest assured every union has investments.


  • #431
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    fuerte1976 wrote: »
    Union didn't, pension fund managers did..

    No, no. This was the ESBOA union invested it's funds. Not the pension fund - which also invested in property of course, as all pension funds would. Anyway, we digress.....


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  • #432
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    Any union taking 1% of it's members' salaries and mandated to hold a fighting fund has a responsibility to invest it and I have to habpnd it to that particular union as they invested very well in the 70s and reaped the rewards in the late 90s. No harm in that. You can rest assured every union has investments.

    Fair enough. But what happens if it went bust, hypothetically speaking? Surely they have a mandate to responsibly invest it, i.e. in a bank or similar.


  • #433
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    For the umpteenth time!!! ESB is Private Sector. You need to look at the definitions some time. ESB are not classed as public sector as they are not funded in any way by the state and never have been since their founding. Doesn't change much but at least cut out the public v private claptrap.

    Did the state not finance the electrification scheme to develop the network. Did the Troika suggest that the state put the network up for sale, or am I missing something. Look forward to be enlightened.


  • #434
    hansfrei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 915 ✭✭✭hansfrei


    State is selling state assets (powerstations) at the request of the troika.


    State assets.Compredez comrads?


  • #435
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    hansfrei wrote: »
    State is selling state assets (powerstations) at the request of the troika.


    State assets.Compredez comrads?

    Enlighten me about the ESB networks. Does the state not own the networks.


  • #436
    Rabelais
    Site Banned Posts: 263 ✭✭Rabelais


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Enlighten me about the ESB networks. Does the state not own the networks.

    The ESB owns the networks. As an asset. Would you be in favour of selling the network? Not the generating stations. Just the physical network that sends the juice into your home so you can fire up your laptop of an evening.

    Selling such a strategically important asset is lunacy in my opinion.

    I presume he was talking about this:

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-sells-stake-in-power-station-for-more-than-240m-29773970.html


  • #437
    hansfrei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 915 ✭✭✭hansfrei


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Enlighten me about the ESB networks. Does the state not own the networks.


    I'd like to say I know who owns what. Give the strikers three days and they'll probably get whatever they want.


  • #438
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    ESB employees can only access the pension fund at age 60 (65 for those who took redundancy since 2012) so this brother of yours cannot be on pension at 50. Any more fairy stories?

    I think I know what age my brother is, but this puts all your other 100% facts into context. He retired this year and he is 54 put that in your pipe and smoke it.


  • #439
    hansfrei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 915 ✭✭✭hansfrei


    Rabelais wrote: »
    The ESB owns the networks. As an asset. Would you be in favour of selling the network? Not the generating stations. Just the physical network that sends the juice into your home so you can fire up your laptop of an evening.

    Selling such a strategically important asset is lunacy in my opinion.

    I presume he was talking about this:

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-sells-stake-in-power-station-for-more-than-240m-29773970.html

    Endas doing a great job.
    We really needed the troika to make us borrow money to pay their mates.
    ESB want in on the action too.
    Lets roll over again so........


  • #440
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    For the umpteenth time!!! ESB is Private Sector. You need to look at the definitions some time. ESB are not classed as public sector as they are not funded in any way by the state and never have been since their founding. Doesn't change much but at least cut out the public v private claptrap.

    Irrelevant all the public have to pay these guys and they continue to show contempt for their fellow workers by turning the screw whenever they please.


  • #441
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Rabelais wrote: »
    The ESB owns the networks. As an asset. Would you be in favour of selling the network? Not the generating stations. Just the physical network that sends the juice into your home so you can fire up your laptop of an evening.

    Selling such a strategically important asset is lunacy in my opinion.

    I presume he was talking about this:

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-sells-stake-in-power-station-for-more-than-240m-29773970.html

    Let me try and clarify what I mean, who owns the network, in IMO the state owns the network, so it has to be a state company.


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  • #442
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    jack presley wrote: »
    Sounds like a legit story so

    well I heard it first hand at the time, if I had known the exact time and date would be so relevant I would have written it down.


  • #443
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    Any union taking 1% of it's members' salaries and mandated to hold a fighting fund has a responsibility to invest it and I have to habpnd it to that particular union as they invested very well in the 70s and reaped the rewards in the late 90s. No harm in that. You can rest assured every union has investments.

    All this does is explain where Brendan Ogle gets his 100plus salary from.


  • #444
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,040 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    For the umpteenth time!!! ESB is Private Sector. You need to look at the definitions some time. ESB are not classed as public sector as they are not funded in any way by the state and never have been since their founding. Doesn't change much but at least cut out the public v private claptrap.

    I think you need to look at the definitions and the pension act to see the powers the scheme have, they could decide tomorrow to wind up the whole scheme if they felt, and then we'll see what pensions the members get, no matter how much striking they do - once it's wound up that's it.
    Averi Mango Villain wrote: »
    ESB employees can only access the pension fund at age 60 (65 for those who took redundancy since 2012) so this brother of yours cannot be on pension at 50. Any more fairy stories?

    This clearly shows you don't know the scheme in details, scheme rules allow for early retirement in circumstances. I


  • #445
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    All this does is explain where Brendan Ogle gets his 100plus salary from.

    This will probably make your head explode

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-paying-80000-to-union-boss-who-called-members-spoilt-26766953.html


  • #446
    Thoie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Rabelais wrote: »
    Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - would you feel genuinely aggrieved that you had paid into a pension for upto 40 years, only to told there is nothing for you? A pension you had to join upon starting? Defined Benefit pensions are a joke, but that doesn't mean we can't at least have a smidgen of sympathy for what they must be feeling.

    A lot of people lost a lot of their pensions when the markets crashed. I know mine was worth just 35% of what I'd paid into it over the years in 2011 (not what it's top value had been). Now, maybe it's bounced back phenomenally this year, but if I'd been due for retirement in the next few years I'd have been screwed. I may have felt aggrieved, but I wouldn't be holding a gun to people's heads. Given that my pension is a pretty standard Irish pension, I'm sure there are a lot of other people in the same fund that are in the same position. So yes, we can have some sympathy, but they're no worse off than a lot of people, and a lot better off than some.

    Some of the lack of sympathy is coming from the fact that the ESB union seem to pull this stunt on a regular basis. While the last actual strike may have been in the 90s, it feels like every couple of years at least they ballot their members, generally during cold weather.

    In a rare summer threat, 9 years ago the union wanted to increase the employee stake to 20%, and increase wages by 18%, while they were concerned at that stage about a half a billion pension deficit. http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0628/51664-esb/ That one obviously got sorted out, but the pension deficit didn't. So their current pension woes certainly shouldn't be a surprise.


  • #447
    Rabelais
    Site Banned Posts: 263 ✭✭Rabelais


    hansfrei wrote: »
    Endas doing a great job.
    We really needed the troika to make us borrow money to pay their mates.
    ESB want in on the action too.
    Lets roll over again so........

    What has this to do with Enda Kenny? It was the previous Government who agreed the terms of the bailout with the troika. The ESB were raising lots of money on the bonds and paper markets to buy generating assets in Europe. They are now being forced to sell them under the terms of that agreement. The State will get their €600 million dividend by selling off these assets. The ESB will now be an increasingly small player in an all-island market. The network assets are estimated to be worth about €5 billion.

    As a State, do we sell them off for €5 billion and face the same potential consequences as we did with Telecom Eireann, while at the same time borrowing the guts of a billion a month to keep the show on the road?

    The ESB pension deficit is a small issue, and any agreement on resolving the issue won't come from the State coffers. It's a much smaller debate that the view around here that we should sell such an important and vitally important strategic asset. AH seems to swing wildly between far-left socialism and libertarianism.


  • #448
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    I think I know what age my brother is, but this puts all your other 100% facts into context. He retired this year and he is 54 put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    Then he is on the VSS voluntary severance payment. He is not and cannot under statute be on pension from ESB under 60 and as he left this year he will not be accessing the superannuation fund until he is 65. He may say he is retired but he is NOT on pension from ESB at 54. And drawing down his severance pay on an annual basis until he reaches pension age. FACT. Ask him! He is a deferred member of the Pension fund.
    What this puts in context is that you haven't the foggiest what you are purporting to be truth. Many who took VS from ESB will say they are retired, and rightly so, but they are not on pension. A huge difference in the light of this thread.


  • #449
    hansfrei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 915 ✭✭✭hansfrei


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    I think you need to look at the definitions and the pension act to see the powers the scheme have, they could decide tomorrow to wind up the whole scheme if they felt, and then we'll see what pensions the members get, no matter how much striking they do - once it's wound up that's it.



    This clearly shows you don't know the scheme in details, scheme rules allow for early retirement in circumstances. I

    Plenty of schemes allow employees carry a portion of their wages up to retirement if they really need it. Its a good idea.


  • #450
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    jack presley wrote: »
    This will probably make your head explode

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-paying-80000-to-union-boss-who-called-members-spoilt-26766953.html

    It is amazing that this dick can get a job. On one hand he claims to represent the workers, while taking a sweetner from the company to keep the workers on side. I know this is old news, but maybe he is doing this now to show the workers he's on their side.


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  • #451
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Did the state not finance the electrification scheme to develop the network. Did the Troika suggest that the state put the network up for sale, or am I missing something. Look forward to be enlightened.

    No, the company funded the electrification schemes itself. The state owns the company but the company borrows on the open market in it's own right for funds. No state funds are ever paid to ESB. The state can sell assets as they ultimately own them but they do not fund the company.


This discussion has been closed.
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