British soldiers admit shoot-to-kill policy. BBC Panorama tonight

Captain Farrell · 21-11-2013 04:52PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

Only us Irish Captain?

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

Captain Farrell · 21-11-2013 04:54PM

Anyway, time for me to bow out of this argument. Oddly enough I have a flight to catch to Northern Ireland.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-11-2013 04:54PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

The Americans use it quite a lot too.
Though I will admit that generally it is a negative term.

MonstaMash · 21-11-2013 04:54PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

I've only ever heard Australians calling you "Pommy bastards"

Tramps Like Us · 21-11-2013 05:00PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

Only us Irish Captain?

He's being precious. Red herring is all, doesn't want to talk about the illegal actions of his country's army.

The likes of Fratton Fred like to pretend that the Brit army was on some higher moral ground.... a line that is making him look more and more foolish as time goes on.

Ten of Swords · 21-11-2013 05:01PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Bad business. I'm reminded of the CIA's Phoenix Program in Vietnam.

This still goes on today, just look at Israel's 'Sikul Memukad' policy which has been shown to result in a huge innocent civilian vs actual target death count and yet has been given the green light to continue by the supreme court - the IDF do not even have to make their evidence against the target public as it is considered a military secret, all they require is approval from the Prime Minister.

WilyCoyote · 21-11-2013 05:02PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

I didn't say they'd jailed them. I said they can't condemn them after freeing IRA members. Read my post man...

That is the nub. Soldiers were never jailed on "sus". But the young Irish lads were roped in like steers.

WilyCoyote · 21-11-2013 05:05PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

I've only ever heard Australians calling you "Pommy bastards"

Or Pommy Whingers

jimgoose · 21-11-2013 05:06PM

Ten of Swords wrote: »

This still goes on today, just look at Israel's 'Sikul Memukad' policy which has been shown to result in a huge innocent civilian vs actual target death count and yet has been given the green light to continue by the supreme court - the IDF do not even have to make their evidence against the target public as it is considered a military secret, all they require is approval from the Prime Minister.

Oh yes, I know. But Phoenix was a sniper program where various men and women were identified by the CIA as affiliated in some way with the North/Viet Cong, and quietly dropped from 500 yards or so with an M14.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 21-11-2013 05:07PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

I raise you 'The Brit awards'?.. Still offended Captain?.

Gatling · 21-11-2013 05:09PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Oh yes, I know. But Phoenix was a sniper program where various men and women were identified by the CIA as affiliated in some way with the North/Viet Cong, and quietly dropped from 500 yards or so with an M14.

The M40 bolt action was used by us snipers in Nam

T runner · 21-11-2013 05:10PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Pretty much in this thread, yeah. It's been covered elsewhere on here already.

Both sides did naughty things and killed people. The Troubles in a nutshell.

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

"The Brits" in terms of the 6 counties refers to members of the British army not British citizens. Do you know anything about Ireland?

earlytobed · 21-11-2013 05:10PM

Dominick Elegant Graphic wrote: »

I raise you 'The Brit awards'?.. Still offended Captain?.

"Britpop"....

elefant · 21-11-2013 05:11PM

I don't understand the comparisons drawn between members of a terrorist organisation, and member of a nations' armed forces.

If the Irish army were shooting British civilians, then that would be more of an equal 'both sides doing bad things' wouldn't it?

jimgoose · 21-11-2013 05:11PM

Gatling wrote: »

The M40 bolt action was used by us snipers in Nam

Not for most of the Phoenix missions, it wasn't. The autoloading M14 was considered better for the really shneaky shtuff.

afro man · 21-11-2013 05:11PM

Feisar wrote: »

While having no love of British policy in Northern Ireland I find it hard to blame the individual soldiers. They are trained to soldier, not police. Train up a highly aggressive force (Paras for example) and then not expect them to use force and aggression to deal with problems!?!?

Force & aggression in combat situations , Not to shoot unarmed people on suspicion of being an IRA member or being involved in drive by shootings in Nationalist areas ,, these boys were trained / backed and given a licience to do what they want by British intelligence / Politicans at the time.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 21-11-2013 05:12PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Anyway, time for me to bow out of this argument. Oddly enough I have a flight to catch to Northern Ireland.

"Northern Ireland" is offensive to us nationalists, can you please refer to it as the north of Ireland or the occupied six counties please.

The_Gatsby · 21-11-2013 05:16PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

That is the nub. Soldiers were never jailed on "sus". But the young Irish lads were roped in like steers.

Oh yeah the "young Irish lads" who ****ing blew up innocent people. Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case. Those who were arrested were arrested for good reason. They were all released not so long ago. Do you think you'd have seen a terrorist like Bin Laden being released after a few years if he was locked up? I don't think so. Those IRA memebers or "young Irish lads" were released by the British in an effort to get the IRA on their side so we could all get over the Troubles and move on.

I'm sorry about the shoot to kill policy, I don't believe it was right. But you cannot release IRA members, whether you believe they were in the IRA or not is irrelevant, and then go investigating this shoot to kill policy and possibly convicting ex-British soldiers. It's just not fair.

You're picking an argument for the sake of it now. I don't understand how you can't see my point to be honest.

Tramps Like Us · 21-11-2013 05:16PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Oh yeah the "young Irish lads" who ****ing blew up innocent people. Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case. Those who were arrested were arrested for good reason. They were all released not so long ago. Do you think you'd have seen a terrorist like Bin Laden being released after a few years if he was locked up? I don't think so. Those IRA memebers or "young Irish lads" were released by the British in an effort to get the IRA on their side so we could all get over the Troubles and move on.

I'm sorry about the shoot to kill policy, I don't believe it was right. But you cannot release IRA members, whether you believe they were in the IRA or not is irrelevant, and then go investigating this shoot to kill policy and possibly convicting ex-British soldiers. It's just not fair.

You're picking an argument for the sake of it now. I don't understand how you can't see my point to be honest.

Eh.... that was exactly what happened

MonstaMash · 21-11-2013 05:19PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case.

Interment...Operation Demetrius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_in_Northern_Ireland

suicide_circus · 21-11-2013 05:22PM

The British - a great bunch of lads.

Fratton Fred · 21-11-2013 05:23PM

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

He's being precious. Red herring is all, doesn't want to talk about the illegal actions of his country's army.

The likes of Fratton Fred like to pretend that the Brit army was on some higher moral ground.... a line that is making him look more and more foolish as time goes on.

That's bollocks to be honest.

You and the other usual suspects will go to great lengths to claim IRA atrocities were actually bonafide economic targets and that.unarmed British soldiers and their families were legitimate targets, yet shoot a member of the IRA and suddenly you cry foul.

You claim it was.a war, then stop expecting the other side to play by different rules to you.

In northern Ireland, those that held any sort of moral high ground were in very short supply.

WilyCoyote · 21-11-2013 05:25PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Oh yeah the "young Irish lads" who ****ing blew up innocent people. Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case. Those who were arrested were arrested for good reason. They were all released not so long ago. Do you think you'd have seen a terrorist like Bin Laden being released after a few years if he was locked up? I don't think so. Those IRA memebers or "young Irish lads" were released by the British in an effort to get the IRA on their side so we could all get over the Troubles and move on.

I'm sorry about the shoot to kill policy, I don't believe it was right. But you cannot release IRA members, whether you believe they were in the IRA or not is irrelevant, and then go investigating this shoot to kill policy and possibly convicting ex-British soldiers. It's just not fair.

You're picking an argument for the sake of it now. I don't understand how you can't see my point to be honest.

This oafish behaviour abroad seems to be genetically linked to being British. Either trampling on weaker nations like the army or wrecking town centres like the Engerlish football fans.
Why can't ye all behave like David Niven or Sir John Gielgud ....... two quintessential British gentlemen?

Fratton Fred · 21-11-2013 05:25PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

The British - a great bunch of lads.

Thank you, we are.

Fratton Fred · 21-11-2013 05:26PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

This oafish behaviour abroad seems to be genetically linked to being British. Either trampling on weaker nations like the army or wrecking town centres like the Engerlish football fans.
Why can't ye all behave like David Niven or Sir John Gielgud ....... two quintessential British gentlemen?

Now you're just demonstrating your own bigotry.

DublinWriter · 21-11-2013 05:26PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

I'm not offended by the term "Paddies".

Not a big fan of the Brits awards then?

monocleman · 21-11-2013 05:28PM

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Pretty much in this thread, yeah. It's been covered elsewhere on here already.

Both sides did naughty things and killed people. The Troubles in a nutshell.

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

So, by the rules of the moral equivalence game, do we get to term the British army terrorists or the IRA as a legitimate army?

I was told a story of my cousin bringing his friend in the British army, who was about to be dispatched to the north, to my grandparents' house about forty years ago, where he boasted about all the Paddies he was going to shoot. (By the way, the fact that he said "Paddies" wasn't the offensive part.)

o1s1n · 21-11-2013 05:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's bollocks to be honest.

You and the other usual suspects will go to great lengths to claim IRA atrocities were actually bonafide economic targets and that.unarmed British soldiers and their families were legitimate targets, yet shoot a member of the IRA and suddenly you cry foul.

You claim it was.a war, then stop expecting the other side to play by different rules to you.

In northern Ireland, those that held any sort of moral high ground were in very short supply.

Your argument is flawed. Wars happen between nations. This is a battle between one nation's army and terrorists.

Terrorists may speak for a section of the community with extremist views, but they don't speak for the country as a whole. Therefore they will not abide by any kind of standards.

The other combatant in this 'war' is the official army of the United Kingdom.

One of the above has an international set of rules and regulations it's legally meant to abide by. Guess which one?

Or would you rather the Brittish army bring themselves down to the level of terrorists?

Fratton Fred · 21-11-2013 05:29PM

T runner wrote: »

"The Brits" in terms of the 6 counties refers to members of the British army not British citizens. Do you know anything about Ireland?

Is it? Or is it just nationalism demonizing the Saxon foe?

The_Gatsby · 21-11-2013 05:29PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

Interment...Operation Demetrius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_in_Northern_Ireland

People that were picked up still had reason to be one of the 342 were picked up. The ones who had no links to the IRA were released within a couple of days. I acknowledge the brutal interrogation techniques and how wrong they were but to make it out as if those arrested were innocent young lads is a bit naive and doesn't really take into account that actually most of the people arrested were IRA members and had links to the IRA. It's inevitable that you'll have people in that list that are wrongly arrested though.

British soldiers admit shoot-to-kill policy. BBC Panorama tonight

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