British soldiers admit shoot-to-kill policy. BBC Panorama tonight

WilyCoyote

Finally British soldiers admit they shot unarmed people in Belfast because they thought they may be in the IRA. The Ministry of Defence refers data to Police. And the outcome? Another expensive whitewash more than likely. So, a murder is not a murder if done by the Brits?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511028/Secret-British-Army-undercover-unit-shot-killed-unarmed-civilians-believed-IRA-members.html

MonstaMash

Surprise, surprise :eek: :rolleyes:

Boombastic

they're late Sunday world had it last week

Captain Farrell

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Finally British soldiers admit they shot unarmed people in Belfast because they thought they may be in the IRA. The Ministry of Defence refers data to Police. And the outcome? Another expensive whitewash more than likely. So, a murder is not a murder if done by the Brits?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511028/Secret-British-Army-undercover-unit-shot-killed-unarmed-civilians-believed-IRA-members.html

"The Brits"? No, the British.

Tramps Like Us

This has been known for years but people were called liars for saying it.... coincidence I'm sure that the AG came out and said that no one (soldier, IRA volunteer, loyalist) who committed a crime before the GFA should be prosecuted. Complete coincidence.


There's much more to come out still.

Tramps Like Us

Captain Farrell wrote: »

"The Brits"? No, the British.

THAT is what you have to say about the admission that a secret, disguised, undercover Brit army group murdered innocent Irish men and women?

Ten of Swords

Boombastic wrote: »

they're late Sunday world had it last week

This was reported on almost a year ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252237/The-murder-mayhem-squad-Shocking-new-revelations-undercover-soldier-carried-shoot-ask-questions-later-attacks-IRA-terrorists-British-Army.html

Feisar

While having no love of British policy in Northern Ireland I find it hard to blame the individual soldiers. They are trained to soldier, not police. Train up a highly aggressive force (Paras for example) and then not expect them to use force and aggression to deal with problems!?!?

MonstaMash

Captain Farrell wrote: »

"The Brits"? No, the British.

Same difference, Sássanachs are Sássanachs...but sure go on ahead & start a 100+ page debate about it Captain...

Oh wait, here comes Bumper 234, Lord Sutch & Fratton Fred to the rescue :rolleyes:

jimgoose

Bad business. I'm reminded of the CIA's Phoenix Program in Vietnam.

Captain Farrell

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

THAT is what you have to say about the admission that a secret, disguised, undercover Brit army group murdered innocent Irish men and women?

Pretty much in this thread, yeah. It's been covered elsewhere on here already.

Both sides did naughty things and killed people. The Troubles in a nutshell.

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

Fratton Fred

Where did they admit a shoot to kill policy?

jimgoose

Captain Farrell wrote: »

...That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

The term "Paddy" isn't offensive to me.

wazky

MonstaMash wrote: »

Same difference, Sássanachs are Sássanachs...but sure go on ahead & start a 100+ page debate about it Captain...

Oh wait, here comes Lord Sutch & Fratton Fred to the rescue :rolleyes:

Do they shine a light into the sky like the Batman signal to alert them to disturbances in the force Empire?

The_Gatsby

WilyCoyote wrote: »

So, a murder is not a murder if done by the Brits?

Yeah it's still a murder. People don't realise that these things work both ways. All of the IRA members were released from prison ffs. They blew up innocent people. I don't think they should have been released and had they not then I'd be all for investigations of this "shoot to kill" policy but that's not the case.

The powers that be cannot free a load of IRA terrorists and then condemn a load of British soldiers. But people like you, making those sorts of comments, just don't understand this.

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

THAT is what you have to say about the admission that a secret, disguised, undercover Brit army group murdered innocent Irish men and women?

The IRA murdered innocent British men and women along with plenty of Irish men and women too. The British murdered innocent British and Irish men and women. So what? Both sides did bad things, what's the point in arguing about it any more?

Fratton Fred

wazky wrote: »

Do they shine a light into the sky like the Batman signal to alert them to disturbances in the force Empire?

Yes, unlike the shinner bots, we aren't all joined to the collective.

"you will be assimilated or.declared a west.brit"

Gatling

Does anybody actually care what happened when a bunch of terrorists got shot at

MonstaMash

Fair play to you Fred, always give me a laugh & truly a pleasure debating with you, no enmity at all

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Gatling wrote: »

Does anybody actually care what happened when a bunch of terrorists got shot at

Problem is a lot of their victims were, like those on Bloody Sunday, wholly innocent.

golfball37

Gatling wrote: »

Does anybody actually care what happened when a bunch of terrorists got shot at

No live by the sword die by the sword is my motto. I have no problem with what happened at Loughall for example. You can't keep saying there's a war going on then complain when the other side goes out and acts like a protaganist of war should act.

When they shoot innocent children dead though you're into different terrority and they are as cold blooded murderers as any IRA man.

Fratton Fred

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Problem is a lot of their victims were, like those on Bloody Sunday, wholly innocent.

Were they? How do you know that.from the article?

Boombastic

Gatling wrote: »

Does anybody actually care what happened when a bunch of terrorists got shot at

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wrcOL1g9yJA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwrcOL1g9yJA

The Dom

First aired in 1984.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-LeYvCeRM

Tramps Like Us

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Pretty much in this thread, yeah. It's been covered elsewhere on here already.

Both sides did naughty things and killed people. The Troubles in a nutshell.

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

Don't lie, it's not. Its regularly used by all sorts including the media

WilyCoyote

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Yeah it's still a murder. People don't realise that these things work both ways. All of the IRA members were released from prison ffs. They blew up innocent people. I don't think they should have been released and had they not then I'd be all for investigations of this "shoot to kill" policy but that's not the case.

The powers that be cannot free a load of IRA terrorists and then condemn a load of British soldiers. But people like you, making those sorts of comments, just don't understand this.



The IRA murdered innocent British men and women along with plenty of Irish men and women too. The British murdered innocent Irish men and women. So what? Both sides did bad things, what's the point in arguing about it any more?

Wasn't aware that they jailed any of these murderous thugs-in-uniform? So how could they free them?

The_Gatsby

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Don't lie, it's not. Its regularly used by all sorts including the media

All depends on the context though doesn't it?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were they? How do you know that.from the article?

No, not from the article, from the testimony of some of the families and from previous disclosures.
Effectively these guys just shot anyone the thought might be republican.

The_Gatsby

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Wasn't aware that they jailed any of these murderous thugs-in-uniform? So how could they free them?

I didn't say they'd jailed them. I said they can't condemn them after freeing IRA members. Read my post man...

[-0-]

Not this crap again. After Hours has consistently shown that people are unable to have an educated debate regarding the north.

None of this is a surprise. It has been well documented in many books, and is something Irish nationalists/Catholics have been claiming for many decades.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GB1GO8Y

I'm bowing out of this thread and refuse to get involved in further discourse on this topic.

Captain Farrell

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Don't lie, it's not. Its regularly used by all sorts including the media

When used by the Irish it's a derogatory term. Hence terms such as "west brit".

It's similar to how youhave "Paddy Wagon" tour company, but if I referred to you as Paddies it would be insulting.

MonstaMash

Captain Farrell wrote: »

When used by the Irish it's a derogatory term.

Only us Irish Captain?

Captain Farrell

MonstaMash wrote: »

Only us Irish Captain?

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

Captain Farrell

Anyway, time for me to bow out of this argument. Oddly enough I have a flight to catch to Northern Ireland.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

The Americans use it quite a lot too.
Though I will admit that generally it is a negative term.

MonstaMash

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Not many other nations call us Brits. Even Australians use "Poms". It's a peculiarly irish phenomenon.

I've only ever heard Australians calling you "Pommy bastards"

Tramps Like Us

MonstaMash wrote: »

Only us Irish Captain?

He's being precious. Red herring is all, doesn't want to talk about the illegal actions of his country's army.

The likes of Fratton Fred like to pretend that the Brit army was on some higher moral ground.... a line that is making him look more and more foolish as time goes on.

Ten of Swords

jimgoose wrote: »

Bad business. I'm reminded of the CIA's Phoenix Program in Vietnam.

This still goes on today, just look at Israel's 'Sikul Memukad' policy which has been shown to result in a huge innocent civilian vs actual target death count and yet has been given the green light to continue by the supreme court - the IDF do not even have to make their evidence against the target public as it is considered a military secret, all they require is approval from the Prime Minister.

WilyCoyote

The_Gatsby wrote: »

I didn't say they'd jailed them. I said they can't condemn them after freeing IRA members. Read my post man...

That is the nub. Soldiers were never jailed on "sus". But the young Irish lads were roped in like steers.

WilyCoyote

MonstaMash wrote: »

I've only ever heard Australians calling you "Pommy bastards"

Or Pommy Whingers

jimgoose

Ten of Swords wrote: »

This still goes on today, just look at Israel's 'Sikul Memukad' policy which has been shown to result in a huge innocent civilian vs actual target death count and yet has been given the green light to continue by the supreme court - the IDF do not even have to make their evidence against the target public as it is considered a military secret, all they require is approval from the Prime Minister.

Oh yes, I know. But Phoenix was a sniper program where various men and women were identified by the CIA as affiliated in some way with the North/Viet Cong, and quietly dropped from 500 yards or so with an M14.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Captain Farrell wrote: »

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

I raise you 'The Brit awards'?.. Still offended Captain?.

Gatling

jimgoose wrote: »

Oh yes, I know. But Phoenix was a sniper program where various men and women were identified by the CIA as affiliated in some way with the North/Viet Cong, and quietly dropped from 500 yards or so with an M14.

The M40 bolt action was used by us snipers in Nam

T runner

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Pretty much in this thread, yeah. It's been covered elsewhere on here already.

Both sides did naughty things and killed people. The Troubles in a nutshell.

We are British, not "Brits". That term is as offensive to us as "Paddies" is to you.

"The Brits" in terms of the 6 counties refers to members of the British army not British citizens. Do you know anything about Ireland?

earlytobed

Dominick Elegant Graphic wrote: »

I raise you 'The Brit awards'?.. Still offended Captain?.

"Britpop"....

elefant

I don't understand the comparisons drawn between members of a terrorist organisation, and member of a nations' armed forces.

If the Irish army were shooting British civilians, then that would be more of an equal 'both sides doing bad things' wouldn't it?

jimgoose

Gatling wrote: »

The M40 bolt action was used by us snipers in Nam

Not for most of the Phoenix missions, it wasn't. The autoloading M14 was considered better for the really shneaky shtuff.

afro man

Feisar wrote: »

While having no love of British policy in Northern Ireland I find it hard to blame the individual soldiers. They are trained to soldier, not police. Train up a highly aggressive force (Paras for example) and then not expect them to use force and aggression to deal with problems!?!?

Force & aggression in combat situations , Not to shoot unarmed people on suspicion of being an IRA member or being involved in drive by shootings in Nationalist areas ,, these boys were trained / backed and given a licience to do what they want by British intelligence / Politicans at the time.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Captain Farrell wrote: »

Anyway, time for me to bow out of this argument. Oddly enough I have a flight to catch to Northern Ireland.

"Northern Ireland" is offensive to us nationalists, can you please refer to it as the north of Ireland or the occupied six counties please.

The_Gatsby

WilyCoyote wrote: »

That is the nub. Soldiers were never jailed on "sus". But the young Irish lads were roped in like steers.

Oh yeah the "young Irish lads" who ****ing blew up innocent people. Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case. Those who were arrested were arrested for good reason. They were all released not so long ago. Do you think you'd have seen a terrorist like Bin Laden being released after a few years if he was locked up? I don't think so. Those IRA memebers or "young Irish lads" were released by the British in an effort to get the IRA on their side so we could all get over the Troubles and move on.

I'm sorry about the shoot to kill policy, I don't believe it was right. But you cannot release IRA members, whether you believe they were in the IRA or not is irrelevant, and then go investigating this shoot to kill policy and possibly convicting ex-British soldiers. It's just not fair.

You're picking an argument for the sake of it now. I don't understand how you can't see my point to be honest.

Tramps Like Us

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Oh yeah the "young Irish lads" who ****ing blew up innocent people. Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case. Those who were arrested were arrested for good reason. They were all released not so long ago. Do you think you'd have seen a terrorist like Bin Laden being released after a few years if he was locked up? I don't think so. Those IRA memebers or "young Irish lads" were released by the British in an effort to get the IRA on their side so we could all get over the Troubles and move on.

I'm sorry about the shoot to kill policy, I don't believe it was right. But you cannot release IRA members, whether you believe they were in the IRA or not is irrelevant, and then go investigating this shoot to kill policy and possibly convicting ex-British soldiers. It's just not fair.

You're picking an argument for the sake of it now. I don't understand how you can't see my point to be honest.

Eh.... that was exactly what happened

MonstaMash

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Don't try and make it out as if they were just grabbed off the street for being Irish and arrested with the excuse of "oh they're suspected of being in the IRA" because that wasn't the case.

Interment...Operation Demetrius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_in_Northern_Ireland