Teachers and unrurly pupils.

CrazyRabbit · 14-11-2013 01:03PM

It's not as much fun to be a teacher now as it was 25+ years ago. For one thing, you're no longer allowed to punch the students that annoy you. And it's more about being a psychologist nowdays.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-11-2013 01:03PM

Boombastic wrote: »

but there is an oversupply of teachers of not enough jobs, an has been for a while

@ princess- my point is there are thousands unempoyed teachers in the country and if you where to pick thousands of people randomly off the dole as you suggested, many would be trained teachers.
tell us more about the unemployed being incapable of opening doors?

My apologies, I thought it was self-evident that the door-opening thing was tongue in cheek and not intended to be taken literally. Apparently I was mistaken.

Now. Back to the issue, without the sidestepping: if it's that easy and that overpaid, then why do we not just give the jobs to anyone?

chopper6 · 14-11-2013 01:04PM

Boombastic wrote: »

but there is an oversupply of teachers of not enough jobs, an has been for a while

Due to the Govt moratorium on recruitment,increased classroom sizes and the closing of schools.

Caliden · 14-11-2013 01:08PM

Not a teacher but I completely agree with the action taken in the following situation.

My aunt owns a montessori school and they had an unruly pupil who could not be controlled. Parents of the other kids complained and after 3 instances, the child was sent home and asked not to return.

I realise schools have the ability to suspend/expel students but sometimes evidence can be hard to provide so I would be of the opinion that audio/video in classrooms be monitored.

Gerry T · 14-11-2013 01:28PM

Caliden wrote: »

Not a teacher but I completely agree with the action taken in the following situation.

My aunt owns a montessori school and they had an unruly pupil who could not be controlled. Parents of the other kids complained and after 3 instances, the child was sent home and asked not to return.

I realise schools have the ability to suspend/expel students but sometimes evidence can be hard to provide so I would be of the opinion that audio/video in classrooms be monitored.

Grayson wrote: »

I mentioned earlier, I don't think that a teacher should, or is qualified, to deal with a particularly bad student. Some of these kids are really messed up and a 1 year postgrad in education isn't enough. Those kids need people who are specialised at dealing with troublesome kids.

I think a starting wage of 25-30k is a good start for a teacher. It's in line with the starting level in other professions. They should be paid per hour and this includes extra time that they have to spend. So if they have to spend 5 hours one night correcting stuff, they should get paid for those 5 hours. But they should also be able to account for that time. Paying extra because we assume they might have to do this is just silly.

Fair enough, I can't disagree with any of that.

I would suggest that there is nothing wrong with teachers and more importantly lecturers doing a 9-5 mon-fri. For lecturers with say 16hr's contact a week that gives them 24hr's a week to do corrections planning etc... they shouldn't have the option to work at home. The advantage here is they are available for any student to wander in and ask questions.

I would also add rather than taking the summer months off they could come in and do their 9-5 and research new developments in their industry. Write a paper, update their notes and TAKE CALLS from any students that want to (doubt that would happen, but...).

But in their defence a unruly student should have their parents brought in each day and have them deal with the issue. You would quickly see parents getting on top of their kids behaviour. Sure with lecturers/teachers doing a 9-5 they would have plenty of time to drag parents in !!

Gerry T · 14-11-2013 01:34PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's not as much fun to be a teacher now as it was 25+ years ago. For one thing, you're no longer allowed to punch the students that annoy you. And it's more about being a psychologist nowdays.

In my day in primary ('70's)

it was very common to get a punch or even a kick under the table, didn't harm me, anyone disagrees and I'll burst ya

Grayson · 14-11-2013 01:35PM

No Pants wrote: »

Seriously?

Sounds very counterproductive to me.

How so? the idea is that they just have to account for their work. they clock in and out. they log the work they do. "4-5pm corrected x amount of assignments from class 4b"

No Pants · 14-11-2013 01:36PM

Starting to see the Irish issues with trust creeping in now. Make sure people are present, as if it's anywhere near as important as their actual planned work and to hell with a productive schedule that suits.

Teyla Emmagan · 14-11-2013 02:06PM

I have great respect for our teachers, I don't think it's a job I could do in a million years. I try and control a bunch of 30 kids or so for an hour and a half a week for an extra curricular activity and at times it leaves me totally beaten. To be fair, sometimes it's absolutely fantastic and they're all brilliant, and at times you want to strangle half of them. And my 30 kids are from families who really want them to do well, not from homes where the child isn't getting support or is let run riot. Dealing with a bad egg intent on wrecking the classroom for everyone else must be absolutely exhausting and energy sapping. I imagine it's totally draining and frustrating, as well as potentially dangerous. Fair play to anyone who does it.

G'wan our teachers.

No Pants · 14-11-2013 02:22PM

Grayson wrote: »

How so? the idea is that they just have to account for their work. they clock in and out. they log the work they do. "4-5pm corrected x amount of assignments from class 4b"

Sounds like overprocessing and therefore inefficient to me. Also a costly exercise with no benefit and some cost in terms of time and, more importantly, trust and morale.

Gerry T · 14-11-2013 02:26PM

No Pants wrote: »

Starting to see the Irish issues with trust creeping in now. Make sure people are present, as if it's anywhere near as important as their actual planned work and to hell with a productive schedule that suits.

If teachers are putting in the hours, all be it at home. Then why should they object to doing it at work. I appreciate they have lives and the flexibility means they can pick up kids etc.. and work later that evening but there are far more benefits to having teachers in the class room than not.
Most jobs are now closely measured and appraised, teachers should be also its not rocket science. Teachers not making the grade can be re-trained (at their own cost & time) and brought up to the minimum required level. Those above it and doing the hrs have nothing to worry about.

roadrunner16 · 14-11-2013 02:35PM

Gerry T wrote: »

But what about 3rd level lecturers ? can't they earn up to 90k a yr, have max 16 hrs contact a week, some as little as 4hrs a week with "research" taking up alot of time ? that to me is 2 much for that type of job.

just taking that point. you are way off, yes they may actually only be teaching for a certain number of hours a week. but there a lot of "work behind the scenes" , for example I had to hand up a first draft thesis last monday to a lecturer. He has four students to supervise that's about 50,000 words he has to go through, looking up every point and reference. I know he will be at it every chance he gets and he wont have it back for at least the next 3 weeks. and thats only the first draft , as well as that being one module for one of four years he teaches , and I will probably have at least one more draft for him to correct. . 3rd level lectures in my experience work way harder than teachers.

No Pants · 14-11-2013 02:37PM

Gerry T wrote: »

there are far more benefits to having teachers in the class room than not.

Can you please do me a favour and list them here?

All I've seen so far in this thread is that they may be available to answer questions if a student wanders by. That's not efficient.

Pumpkinseeds · 14-11-2013 02:40PM

I overheard a conversation between 2 teenage lads a few weeks ago. The general gist of it was that a teacher had lost her temper with a pupil and had thrown her pen at him. When the other lad asked what the student had done when she threw it at him, the response was ' he fcuked it back at her'.

Jaysus, things have changed since my day. We wouldn't have dared to do something like that, if we had we'd probably have been suspended and your parents would have gone mental about it.

OldNotWIse · 14-11-2013 02:40PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Surely the "all kids are bastards" law should apply to teaching

I knew there was a law to substantiate my sentiments.

Grayson · 14-11-2013 02:42PM

No Pants wrote: »

Starting to see the Irish issues with trust creeping in now. Make sure people are present, as if it's anywhere near as important as their actual planned work and to hell with a productive schedule that suits.

Every other profession has to do it.

Boombastic · 14-11-2013 02:44PM

No Pants wrote: »

Can you please do me a favour and list them here?

All I've seen so far in this thread is that they may be available to answer questions if a student wanders by. That's not efficient.

we had the sob story about correcting papers till 1 am, its not the height the efficiency there at the moment

No Pants · 14-11-2013 02:47PM

Grayson wrote: »

Every other profession has to do it.

Eh, no they don't.

Stark · 14-11-2013 02:48PM

martinedwards wrote: »

Gold plated pensions? well, final salary pensions. like a load of other jobs.

Don't know of anyone outside the public service who gets a final salary pension. Even a defined benefit average salary pension is a luxury these days.

martinedwards wrote: »

High rates of pay? OK, not TOO bad, 40k for a 60 hour week graduate. better than some, but a lot less than others.

There's no way a teacher's working week is 60 hours even when you take into account correcting tests and class preparations etc. I live with a teacher too. Okay, there have been occasions when she's been up late correcting tests but that's usually been down to procrastinating and deciding to do other things like having "power naps" or trips out during her free time during the day as opposed to not having the time within a 40 hour week to do them. And €40k for a graduate is very very very good. Most graduate jobs pay around €25k for a 12 month working year.

Grayson · 14-11-2013 02:52PM

No Pants wrote: »

Eh, no they don't.

Yes they do. With the exception of the self employed and higher level positions most people in any institution/business have to clock in and clock out.

Bananatop · 14-11-2013 02:54PM

When I saw the thread title, I was worried. I thought it was just going to be about teachers and whether or not they have it hard with unruly pupils.

Thank god somebody saw the light and mentioned pay and holidays, otherwise it would've gone completely off topic!

foxyboxer · 14-11-2013 02:56PM

The usage of yellow, red cards in sports is supposed to instill discipline during a game.
To allow the referee to control the players behaviour and to prevent players discipline from getting worse.

That's the key. Maintaining discipline.

The teacher would simply give a pupil a warning if their behaviour is unruly.
If the misconduct continues and is consistent then the teacher can issue a yellow card and the parents get a €20 fine.
If there is gross misconduct (language, violence etc) then they get a red card and a €50+ fine.
Any money collected from fines could contribute to the School itself.

Now any parent who has a child coming home with fines every week will be damn sure to correct their behaviour in future.

You don't have to have corporal punishment to maintain discpline in the classroom.
Simply hit parents where it truly hurts. In their pockets.

No Pants · 14-11-2013 02:56PM

Grayson wrote: »

Yes they do. With the exception of the self employed and higher level positions most people in any institution/business have to clock in and clock out.

I'll have to defer to you on that. I've worked for 4 companies across 4 countries in the past 16 years and I've never had to clock in or clock out. I'm not self employed and I'm not at the higher level.

I did work in a poultry factory in my teens. I had to clock in and out there.

Soft Falling Rain · 14-11-2013 02:57PM

martinedwards wrote: »

that's original.

and far from accurate.

schools vary hugely. and all have their own stresses. Some have a load of evil scrotes whose parents think the sun sines out of them and they can do no wrong. they leave school with nothing but anger and hatred.

some have loads of highly motivated hard working students whose parents come down on the teacher like a ton of bricks because there isn't enough 2 hour homeworks being set.

addressing your points.....

short working week does not include the preparation and marking. My Mrs was marking til 1am this morning. that's not a short week in anyones book

High rates of pay? OK, not TOO bad, 40k for a 60 hour week graduate. better than some, but a lot less than others.

Job for life? utter crap. in my area the population is falling and there are fewer kids in the system. guess what, they need fewer teachers. the school I taught in had 8 redundancies in the last 5 years.

Gold plated pensions? well, final salary pensions. like a load of other jobs.

3 months holidays.

OOOOOOHHH yes!!

I'll always defend teachers, but are we talking an entry level salary here? Because 40k sounds more than okay to me, regardless of extra hours put into marking and preparing for classes.

I'm sure the job your Mrs. is doing is worth every penny she's making, I just wouldn't be baulking at that figure is all.

But on topic, when I finished a few years ago things were getting quite bad. 1st years not even up to your shoulder squaring up to senior teachers, who even 6th years feared and respected greatly. If you were a new teacher coming in then god help you so I absolutely respect the job teachers, especially new ones, are facing.

my teapot is orange · 14-11-2013 02:57PM

Teachers should be given a lot more power to deal with unruly pupils, but they should then be obliged to use it. The number of times when I was in school, I saw students hurling all kinds of abuse at other students and teachers listening, but sitting back not wanting to get involved less they would make themselves unpopular with the culprits and draw the little thugs on themselves.

Missyelliot2 · 14-11-2013 02:59PM

I work as a teacher in a primary school and just want to offer my insight into why there may be more issues when children reach secondary school.

In our school, the vulnerable children are identified and targetted. We have a social skills programme and a life skills programme, where children are helped with life skills, such as keeping clean, tying laces, making themselves a snack etc. Things that are definitely not happening at home. My colleagues and I received no training in this programme, but we all do our best for the children in our care.

When the children enter secondary school, there is little time for this to be continued, as there isn't the same support offered to secondary schools.
Some children become frustrated and lost within the system - this can lead to behaviour that's unruly and distruptive.

There should be more support available for schools, but unfortunately that's not always the case.

nc19 · 14-11-2013 03:06PM

When i was in 1st class c.1988 we had a sub for a few months. A big heavy culchie fella he was. Had no control on the class. We would make forts out of the tables and play all day and he could do nothing to stop us. I think he had a nervous breakdown!

Jonny Blaze · 14-11-2013 03:26PM

Gerry T wrote: »

But what about 3rd level lecturers ? can't they earn up to 90k a yr, have max 16 hrs contact a week, some as little as 4hrs a week with "research" taking up alot of time ? that to me is 2 much for that type of job.

I actually work in a research facility with several 3rd level lecturers who rotate between lecturing and their research (usually while overseeing multiple phd students with their theses at the same).

Many of them develop patented technology and spin off companies that make use of the research, leading to greater employment and stimulus for the economy, not to mention the overall benefits to society that improvements in technology bring.

90k?

Yeah that's not fair at all!

Grayson · 14-11-2013 03:28PM

nc19 wrote: »

When i was in 1st class c.1988 we had a sub for a few months. A big heavy culchie fella he was. Had no control on the class. We would make forts out of the tables and play all day and he could do nothing to stop us. I think he had a nervous breakdown!

I think he went into politics.

RoboRat · 14-11-2013 03:44PM

My wife is a teacher and some of the stories she has told me are shocking.

She had a kid in her class winding her up no end and then hiding his phone recording her so that his parents could come and try and instigate a law suit.

The kids have absolutely no fear of teachers, she has been told to f*** off by 6 year olds.

She got a threatening note from a father of one of the kids and I only got told a few months later as she was worried that I would go after him, which I will when I get his name. Scumbag.

One ten year old brought a needle and bag of flour into school and told the other kids that it was his drugs.

Any unruly or disruptive behaviour is because they have 'ADHD' and not because they are toerags with excuses for parents.

She caught students nicking from her bag and was told to f*** off and mind her own business.

She had to take a child out of class because he was threatening another student and as soon as she walked out the door he collapsed in a heap saying she hit him.

She has been told on many occasions by students that 'she can't do anything or they'll sue'

She is in a bad school but the parents are the culprits. I used to mess when I was in school but I always respected the teachers and my mother used to tell them to give me a belt if I was acting up.

Teachers and unrurly pupils.

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