Religious child

PopePalpatine · 09-11-2013 01:54PM

Days 298 wrote: »

Becoming an irreligious child is easy. You just don't practice a religion. Religion isn't a part of your identity.

Religion is taught to a child. A child doesn't just become religious through non practice or laziness. Someone has decided to teach the child Catholicism. It wasn't the OP and it certainly wasn't a supernatural calling.

If you try to reason with J C, you're going to have a bad time.

kylith · 09-11-2013 03:28PM

Thinking about this I'd recommend talking to the grandparents and pointing out that not only are you unhappy with them undermining your parenting but that the child is being made upset by the belief that you are going to hell, and that causing such upset is totally unacceptable.

TwoShedsJackson · 09-11-2013 03:41PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

If you try to reason with J C, you're going to have a bad time.

As soon as you try to reason with anyone whose reason for believing is 'faith', you're in for a bad time.

J C · 09-11-2013 04:29PM

wrote:

PopePalpatine
If you try to reason with J C, you're going to have a bad time.

TwoShedsJackson
As soon as you try to reason with anyone whose reason for believing is 'faith', you're in for a bad time.

Could you please concentrate on the OP and stop diverting the thread by making personal remarks about me and other people of faith.
... your gratuituous remark requires me to defend my good name by pointing out that any 'bad time' that some people may have in debate with me is due to their losing the argument ... and there is little I can (or should) do about that.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

She's too young. Tell her she is free to make her own religious choices at 16.

Sounds like she has made her own faith choice ... at 10.

... she might even change at 16 ... or 20 ... only God knows.

J C · 09-11-2013 04:38PM

kylith wrote: »

Thinking about this I'd recommend talking to the grandparents and pointing out that not only are you unhappy with them undermining your parenting but that the child is being made upset by the belief that you are going to hell, and that causing such upset is totally unacceptable.

This child has heard all about Atheism apparently from her parents ... and she has heard about Roman Catholicism somewhere else ... and she appears to have chosen to practice Roman Catholicism.
This is the mirror image of what happens to some children reared in Christian homes.
It's all part of living in a multi-cultural society ... and personal free-will and choice.

PopePalpatine · 09-11-2013 05:25PM

J C wrote: »

Could you please concentrate on the OP and stop diverting the thread by making personal remarks about me and other people of faith.
... your gratuituous remark requires me to defend my good name by pointing out that any 'bad time' that some people may have in debate with me is due to their losing the argument ... and there is little I can (or should) do about that. trying to talk to a brick wall.

Fixed.

Piliger · 09-11-2013 06:21PM

J C wrote: »

This child has heard all about Atheism apparently from her parents ... and she has heard about Roman Catholicism somewhere else ... and she appears to have chosen to practice Roman Catholicism.
This is the mirror image of what happens to some children reared in Christian homes.
It's all part of living in a multi-cultural society ... and personal free-will and choice.

What utter nonsense. You are trying to proselytise that children can 'chose' what to believe in when faced with grandparents intent on brain washing her, and parents who did not. What a load of absolute garbage.

Piliger · 09-11-2013 06:23PM

J C wrote: »

Could you please concentrate on the OP and stop diverting the thread by making personal remarks about me and other people of faith.
... your gratuituous remark requires me to defend my good name by pointing out that any 'bad time' that some people may have in debate with me is due to their losing the argument ... and there is little I can (or should) do about that.

Your gratuitous proselytising based on nothing but your own 'faith' has nothing to do with the thread subject. You offer no evidence why your 'faith' is right. You offer no proof. You just keep on hammering away at your idiotic beliefs.

Days 298 · 09-11-2013 06:45PM

J C wrote: »

Could you please concentrate on the OP and stop diverting the thread by making personal remarks about me and other people of faith.
... your gratuituous remark requires me to defend my good name by pointing out that any 'bad time' that some people may have in debate with me is due to their losing the argument ... and there is little I can (or should) do about that.

Sounds like she has made her own faith choice ... at 10.

... she might even change at 16 ... or 20 ... only God knows.

She has not. Someone else has. She's too young to make a decision to pick up faith. Someone is teaching her it like its a fact Someone has decided to convert her and she is too young to be converted to any religion without her parents consent or wish. She is still in her childhood faith stage she just follows what she is shown without questioning. She didn't choose she was shown and is imitating.

As this is an atheist sub forum I don't think saying only god knows is appropriate. It's annoying. As god doesn't exist and the supernatural isn't a response to an atheist thread.

TwoShedsJackson · 09-11-2013 07:17PM

J C wrote: »

Could you please concentrate on the OP and stop diverting the thread by making personal remarks about me and other people of faith.
... your gratuituous remark requires me to defend my good name by pointing out that any 'bad time' that some people may have in debate with me is due to their losing the argument ... and there is little I can (or should) do about that.

Sounds like she has made her own faith choice ... at 10.

... she might even change at 16 ... or 20 ... only God knows.

No-one has ever lost a debate with you in this forum as you utterly refuse to engage in debate, or attempt to back up your viewpoint with anything other than 'faith'.

09-11-2013 07:26PM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

I haven't read all the posts in the thread, so apologies if this has been asked already.

Have you tried to explore if there's something bothering her? And by that I mean seriously or fundamentally bothering her as opposed to the relatively minor issues that children can have while they're growing up. At that age, extreme actions and obsessions like those she is demonstrating are often a sign of some kind of "subconscious" or "sublimated" issues. Children who are upset or distressed in some way, and who feel they can't communicate their distress directly, tend to suppress what's troubling them and express their fears/worries/upset in other more indirect ways.

Brian Shanahan · 09-11-2013 07:27PM

Lucy8080 wrote: »

An un-baptised child growing up in a household of non -believers is praying every night ,reading prayer books and bible stories and praying when she eats?

And apparently it's all the fault of the grandparents!

Yes brainwashing is insiduous isn't it Lucy?

Donaldio · 09-11-2013 07:49PM

Im not qualified to give you advice as i have never been a father but i was a kid so...
I would humour her she has the right to live a she see's fit i think. I would also think that the more you restrict this intrest and the more taboo and ilegal you make it the harder she might want it. If i was in your shoes i would let her explore it freely to the full let her have the holy comunion etc. Maybe it's just natural for her to rebel ?
It might just all be a phase there just aswell could be many other things out there that will become much more intersting and important to her as she grows up so she might just as easily leave it all behind ?

Best of luck anyway ! Sounds like a right bossy pants !

Piliger · 09-11-2013 08:53PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Yes brainwashing is insiduous isn't it Lucy?

Yes indeed. It shows the power of brainwashing by trusted senior family members in a vacuum, and is a microcosm really of the wider world where children are being subject to this kind fo thing across the world.
Atheists must stand up and make nice and be proud, and try to reach out and fill some of that vacuum in order to give those kids some armoury.

feargale · 10-11-2013 01:03AM

feargale wrote: »

How did your parents react when you parted ways with religion?

Rosina I think you missed this post.

banbhaaifric · 10-11-2013 01:16AM

As parents we make decisions for our children every day that we feel are in their best interests and this is just another one of those. If you feel you don't want to encourage her in these thoughts then don't, and don't get her baptised - as most of us know, it can't be undone.
We accept that minors cannot make all kinds of decisions for themselves, and something irreversible like this is something where the parent should have the final word. I'm not saying you should come in hard and aggressively try to force her to stop praying (it is most likely a phase), but you should show her the strength of your own convictions. You are the fixed and steady point in your child's life and it is good for her to see that you can calmly and logically explain what your viewpoint is.

And OP, find out where this has come from and have a long and serious talk with whoever is trying to indoctrinate her. If they don't respect you on this, what other rules do they play fast and loose with?

gaynorvader · 10-11-2013 02:36AM

J C wrote: »

This child has heard all about Atheism apparently from her parents ... and she has heard about Roman Catholicism somewhere else ... and she appears to have chosen to practice Roman Catholicism.
This is the mirror image of what happens to some children reared in Christian homes.
It's all part of living in a multi-cultural society ... and personal free-will and choice.

13 posts on the topic and not one of them give a lick of advice to the parent. Even the atheist posters came up with bringing her to mass. You've just told the OP that the child might be religious. Nothing else.

robindch · 10-11-2013 02:55AM

GarIT wrote: »

If a child wants to be Christian they need to be taught of the murder and daily sheep sacrifices that is expected of them [...]

And that bit about not wearing "clothing woven of two types of cloth". After all, the bible is all about rules that never change, isn't it?

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/19-19.htm

jimd2 · 10-11-2013 12:19PM

robindch wrote: »

And that bit about not wearing "clothing woven of two types of cloth". After all, the bible is all about rules that never change, isn't it?

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/19-19.htm

Another post that doesn't give any advice to the OP, there are a lot of parts in the bible that relate to the times it was written and quoting it here is irrelevant.

In my opinion the OP should do the following:

Have a time of reflection with your daughter, she can pray and you can say that you are saying your own types of prayers or reflections. Without labouring the point you can say you don't really believe in a God the way your parents and the childminder do.

Allow your parents to bring her to mass when it suits you both and if she wishes. Not necessarily every weekend. I am sure you trust your parents.

I would speak to the childminder and make it clear that your daughter has been made a little confused after their conversations. She should not be discussing religion etc with your daughter unless she was sure that it would be something you would be happy with. If she doesn't change immediately stop using her.

You can get across to your daughter that most Christians and Athiests agree to live life to certain values and morals and that you dissagree on some issues that many people are unsure of worldwide. If she wants to pray then so be it but she is also free to stop praying in the future if her mindset changes.

jimd2 · 10-11-2013 12:27PM

GarIT wrote: »

I don't understand why people think a child that wants to be religious shouldn't read the bible. If a child wants to be Christian they need to be taught of the murder and daily sheep sacrifices that is expected of them in their service to god.

Irrelevant to the OP's query.

People can be religious and pray without reading the bible, especially 10 year olds. I think you are just clutching at whatever straw you can to have a swipe at religious and the bible.

Animord · 10-11-2013 01:04PM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

I was brought up in a non-religious household and went through a phase when I was about 12 of being highly religious and worried horribly about my parents like your daughter. My parents allowed me to do the stuff I wanted, go to church and be confirmed etc, I grew out of it/became bored pretty quickly. I would imagine half your problem is just that she is at that sort of age when children begin to question things, but not really old enough think it all through. It is unfortunate that she has picked a topic for her rebellion that is so contentious for so many people.

I would certainly allow her to go to mass if she wishes, but I think that on-going education is the key here and probably just time. I would also suggest allowing her to talk about it as much as you can, without too much judgement, as you will be setting the tone for lots of other issues during her teenage years - above all you want her to remain as open and able to confide in you as possible.

Best of luck OP.

kylith · 10-11-2013 02:05PM

J C wrote: »

This child has heard all about Atheism apparently from her parents ... and she has heard about Roman Catholicism somewhere else ... and she appears to have chosen to practice Roman Catholicism.
This is the mirror image of what happens to some children reared in Christian homes.
It's all part of living in a multi-cultural society ... and personal free-will and choice.

As an atheist I don't hide the fact that I'm not religious from my niblings. However it is most certainly not my place to tell them that heaven doesn't exist, that their parents are misled, and exactly what a bunch of B'stards the RCC are. Similarly when I have children I won't have a problem with religious people telling my children about their religion, but anyone who tells my child that I'm going to burn in hell and that I'm evil is going to find themselves on my bad side very quickly.

The OP's child has currently decided to follow RCC teaching, and that's fine, you'll notice that in my earlier post I agreed with teaching her about all religions. However she has not gotten the idea of her parents going to hell from thin air; she has been told this, and she has been told it specifically to move her towards the church through fear which is not only reprehensible but is interfering with how the OP raises their child just as much as if a vegetarian childminder decided to tell the child that meat is murder and that her parents are murderers for eating it. If it were my child I'd be finding out where she was getting these ideas and not allowing unsupervised access until they could respect my choices in how my child was raised.

Personal free will and choice doesn't come into it when you're dealing with a minor who doesn't have the mental and emotional ability to critically evaluate what they've been told.

Akrasia · 10-11-2013 02:07PM

Let's pretend the child has started believing in scientology or some other cult. Woyld there be posters on here advising the OP to let her explore the belief?

I think they OP needs to talk to her and show her how ridiculous the religion is. It is an iron age belief. the people who made it up thought the world was flat. they thought literally that heaven was a place up in the sky.

If the child thinks her parents are damned to hell then that is a very real harm and it should be tackled

J C · 10-11-2013 04:15PM

Days 298 wrote: »

She has not. Someone else has. She's too young to make a decision to pick up faith. Someone is teaching her it like its a fact Someone has decided to convert her and she is too young to be converted to any religion without her parents consent or wish. She is still in her childhood faith stage she just follows what she is shown without questioning. She didn't choose she was shown and is imitating.

This a spirtiual matter ... this child is choosing to follow a particular spiritual path. The Human Spirit is eternal - and thus ageless - and a spiritual decision can be therefore made by a person at almost any age - even young children.

Days 298 wrote: »

As this is an atheist sub forum I don't think saying only god knows is appropriate. It's annoying. As god doesn't exist and the supernatural isn't a response to an atheist thread.

... so are Christians welcome or not on this forum?
... or is this an Atheist-only forum?

Atheists present non-God and indeed anti-God responses - so why should God-based responses be a problem ... especially, when the subject of this thread involves a child who appears to have become a Christian?

J C · 10-11-2013 04:19PM

Piliger wrote: »

Your gratuitous proselytising based on nothing but your own 'faith' has nothing to do with the thread subject. You offer no evidence why your 'faith' is right. You offer no proof. You just keep on hammering away at your idiotic beliefs.

Unlike your insulting focus on me ... I'm concentrating on the subject of the thread at hand, which is the brave decision of a young child to seek God rather than rejecting or ignoring Him.

... and the reason I'm not offering any evidence for why my faith is right is because I'm obeying this mod's ruling in this regard

Jernal wrote: »

Mod: JC please don't post in this thread again. This is a thread about giving advice. It's not to meant to break into several different mini atheist/theist debates.

Ta,

J C · 10-11-2013 04:34PM

Piliger wrote: »

What utter nonsense. You are trying to proselytise that children can 'chose' what to believe in when faced with grandparents intent on brain washing her, and parents who did not. What a load of absolute garbage.

Once again making gratuitously insulting comments doesn't add to your case - so please desist, for your own sake, if nobody else's.
I'm not proselytising ... I'm merely making observations and offering legitimate opinion ... which is in line with forum rules and the etiquette of all civil debate.

It is indeed fair comment to state that this child has apparently heard all about Atheism from her Atheist parents ... and she has heard about Roman Catholicism somewhere else ... and she appears to have chosen to practice Roman Catholicism.
It is indeed the mirror image of what happens to some children reared in Christian homes.
.... and it's all part of living in a multi-cultural society ... and personal free-will and choice ... that we have all become accustomed to.

If your thesis is correct and a few hours spent with her granny has converted her to Christianity despite living in an Atheist home 24/7, then she must be a very persuasive granny ... or perhaps its what she has told this child is that has made the difference.

J C · 10-11-2013 04:42PM

Donaldio wrote: »

Im not qualified to give you advice as i have never been a father but i was a kid so...
I would humour her she has the right to live a she see's fit i think. I would also think that the more you restrict this intrest and the more taboo and ilegal you make it the harder she might want it. If i was in your shoes i would let her explore it freely to the full let her have the holy comunion etc. Maybe it's just natural for her to rebel ?
It might just all be a phase there just aswell could be many other things out there that will become much more intersting and important to her as she grows up so she might just as easily leave it all behind ?

Best of luck anyway ! Sounds like a right bossy pants !

I find myself in broad agreement with you.
It's something that we're all likely to have to accommodate in our increasingly multi-cultural society.

Piliger · 10-11-2013 04:46PM

J C wrote: »

Unlike your insulting focus on me ... I'm concentrating on the subject of the thread at hand, which is the brave decision of a young child to seek God rather than rejecting or ignoring Him.

Unlike your proselytising, I am focusing on your nonsensical pointless damaging posts, that ignore this child's well being in favour of your own agenda to spread your fairy stories.

... and the reason I'm not offering any evidence for why my faith is right is because I'm obeying this mod's ruling in this regard

Your posts are full of the most idiotic advice and you are not obeying the mods advice at all. You have one transparent agenda here and that is to repeat the same crap over and over and over again.

As I said before you offer no evidence why your 'faith' is right. You offer no proof. You just keep on hammering away at your idiotic beliefs.

J C · 10-11-2013 04:48PM

Piliger wrote: »

Yes indeed. It shows the power of brainwashing by trusted senior family members in a vacuum, and is a microcosm really of the wider world where children are being subject to this kind fo thing across the world.
Atheists must stand up and make nice and be proud, and try to reach out and fill some of that vacuum in order to give those kids some armoury.

Brainwashing is found within all faiths and none. It's certainly not the unique preserve of any individual or group of people.
... or perhaps in some cases one persons 'reasoned argument' is another persons 'brainwashing'.

Either way, brainwashing is now on such a scale that we can all be assured of having squeaky clean brains, as a reasult!!!:)

smacl · 10-11-2013 04:49PM

J C wrote: »

Unlike your insulting focus on me ... I'm concentrating on the subject of the thread at hand, which is the brave decision of a young child to seek God rather than rejecting or ignoring Him.

... and the reason I'm not offering any evidence for why my faith is right is because I'm obeying this mod's ruling in this regard

But given that the parents here are atheists, and we're in an atheist forum, we're working with the basic premise that God doesn't exist. If the question had been asked over in the Christianity or Islam forum for example, it would generate a very different discussion.

Given that God doesn't exist, we're back to the situation that someone is trying to indoctrinate a young child with religious beliefs without the consent of her parents. That is not a nice thing to do, regardless of the final outcome, but does happen all to regularly in this country. If it is the grandparents, I don't doubt they're doing it in what they believe are the best interests of the child, but it still both wrong and underhand, and needs to be dealt with.

Religious child

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